TVR vs Elise - good tradeoff?
Discussion
Lotus should re-instate the developement of the M250 - complete with V6. That should satisfy the craving for cylinders and probably also attract US attention.
The Elise philosophy is small and lightweight with nible handling - we dont want big lumps in the back. I agree with the supercharged option as per the Turbo Technics install (maybe slightly less power..) Maybe a light pressure turbo could do the trick. Suppose we'll se what Vauxhall make of the the 220...
The Elise philosophy is small and lightweight with nible handling - we dont want big lumps in the back. I agree with the supercharged option as per the Turbo Technics install (maybe slightly less power..) Maybe a light pressure turbo could do the trick. Suppose we'll se what Vauxhall make of the the 220...
stove said: Lotus should re-instate the developement of the M250 - complete with V6. That should satisfy the craving for cylinders and probably also attract US attention.
The Elise philosophy is small and lightweight with nible handling - we dont want big lumps in the back. I agree with the supercharged option as per the Turbo Technics install (maybe slightly less power..) Maybe a light pressure turbo could do the trick. Suppose we'll se what Vauxhall make of the the 220...
Not surprised you want a low pressure turbo if you had a 153Bhp Turbo'd Mini 1.
Have gone down the supercharged route myself, although the car is still with TT so as yet I do not know how big the difference will be went it comes to driving it.
I think the V6 option is probably destined for the US market and use its success, hopefully over there, to gauge how well it would sell here, different markets admittedly, but Lotus need to broaden the horizon beyond the enthuiast buyer and target customers who would look at the Elise as a genuine day to day car to compete against Boxters, Z4's etc to generate much needed revenue.
The new S2 111S is to me a half way house, the average punter will look at comfort, power, toys in the car and over look its real points that do make it stand out, so they need to meet those criteria to generate increased sales, even more so in the US.
As for the weight of the V6, I know not, other than I think its either a Toyota or Nissan engine that was being reported as being trialled by Hethel.
For Lotus to survive long term, they need to expand their market, a V6 creature comfort Elise maybe one way of doing it, maybe they should call it something else, reinstigate the Elite name perhaps?
>> Edited by Felix7 on Wednesday 18th December 13:11
stove said: Lotus should re-instate the developement of the M250 - complete with V6. That should satisfy the craving for cylinders and probably also attract US attention.
The Elise philosophy is small and lightweight with nible handling - we dont want big lumps in the back. I agree with the supercharged option as per the Turbo Technics install (maybe slightly less power..) Maybe a light pressure turbo could do the trick. Suppose we'll se what Vauxhall make of the the 220...
What is this "craving for cylinders"? Is it really anything other than a quest for style over substance? Lotus proved that ample power was available from a 4-pot with their Esprit S4s.
I suspect anyone who really understands the issues would agree that the number of cylinders a car has is significantly less important than many other factors.
I'd far rather have a light, responsive, powerful 4-pot in a car than some banal, mass-produced Totoya V6. Lotus should get back to making their own engines. Perhaps a partnership with TVR? I'd love to see what they could to with half of TVR's 4.5L V8. That would be a 4-pot worth having.
JonGwynne said:
stove said: I'd far rather have a light, responsive, powerful 4-pot in a car than some banal, mass-produced Totoya V6. Lotus should get back to making their own engines. Perhaps a partnership with TVR? I'd love to see what they could to with half of TVR's 4.5L V8. That would be a 4-pot worth having.
Personally I think Lotus would be insane to develop their own engine for exclusive use. I'm sure they could do a great job, and go bankrupt again in the process.
They need to pick an off the shelf engine to keep costs down and reliability up.
As an owner I'd far rather have an off the shelf lump in the back than a Lotus/TWR/whatever special because it means I can run the car very cost effectively without haveing to go to Lotus/TVR/whatever for specialist engine parts.
eg. the Rover K has it's flaws, but I can buy a brand new one in a crate for 500 quid, and that's almost cheaper than servicing it . . .
Fd
fergusd said:
JonGwynne said:
stove said: I'd far rather have a light, responsive, powerful 4-pot in a car than some banal, mass-produced Totoya V6. Lotus should get back to making their own engines. Perhaps a partnership with TVR? I'd love to see what they could to with half of TVR's 4.5L V8. That would be a 4-pot worth having.
Personally I think Lotus would be insane to develop their own engine for exclusive use. I'm sure they could do a great job, and go bankrupt again in the process.
They need to pick an off the shelf engine to keep costs down and reliability up.
As an owner I'd far rather have an off the shelf lump in the back than a Lotus/TWR/whatever special because it means I can run the car very cost effectively without haveing to go to Lotus/TVR/whatever for specialist engine parts.
eg. the Rover K has it's flaws, but I can buy a brand new one in a crate for 500 quid, and that's almost cheaper than servicing it . . .
Fd
Yeah, but seriously, how often do you need things like pistons, con rods or valves replaced? The cost of running an engine is the consumables like spark plugs and oil. Infrequent replacement candidates like cam belts, gaskets, seals or piston rings aren't that big a deal and could be had from alternative sources if necessary.
JonGwynne said: Yeah, but seriously, how often do you need things like pistons, con rods or valves replaced? The cost of running an engine is the consumables like spark plugs and oil. Infrequent replacement candidates like cam belts, gaskets, seals or piston rings aren't that big a deal and could be had from alternative sources if necessary.
All depends on what you do with the car, if you want to tune it then an off the shelf engine is very valuable . . .
It also heavily relates to the total package cost, and reliability, and reliability is key if you are aiming for the porsche marketplace.
As an example . . . look at TVR's woes with the speed 6 engine as an example of the trouble you can have, look at the number of cars going back to base for engine rebuilds, and look at the number of cars Lotus and TVR produce and sell, IMHO if that kind of thing happened to Lotus they would go out of business because they sell any times the number of cars, and because they also specialise in nearly going out of business.
This kind of thing definately puts people off buying the cars, niggles are one thing, engine rebuilds are something altogether less attractive, I know 2 people who love TVR's but would not buy a speed 6 variant, and that's not because of the niggles.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lotus source an engine from a manufacturer that they have already played a part in developing as part of their engineering consultancy business.
Fd
Fergusd - I agree with you with regard to Lotus going to a major manufacturer for an alternative engine, they need reliability - why? because the US market woudl dismiss the US Elise straight away - the same reason that they need a V6 to create the right image.
Do not get me wrong I would err on the side of a light weight powerful in house Lotus engine, but they just do not have the resources. IMHO the V6 in an Elise is detined for a US market, very different to the UK market which is biased towards the enthuiast.
Do not get me wrong I would err on the side of a light weight powerful in house Lotus engine, but they just do not have the resources. IMHO the V6 in an Elise is detined for a US market, very different to the UK market which is biased towards the enthuiast.
fergusd said:
JonGwynne said: Yeah, but seriously, how often do you need things like pistons, con rods or valves replaced? The cost of running an engine is the consumables like spark plugs and oil. Infrequent replacement candidates like cam belts, gaskets, seals or piston rings aren't that big a deal and could be had from alternative sources if necessary.
All depends on what you do with the car, if you want to tune it then an off the shelf engine is very valuable . . .
It also heavily relates to the total package cost, and reliability, and reliability is key if you are aiming for the porsche marketplace.
As an example . . . look at TVR's woes with the speed 6 engine as an example of the trouble you can have, look at the number of cars going back to base for engine rebuilds, and look at the number of cars Lotus and TVR produce and sell, IMHO if that kind of thing happened to Lotus they would go out of business because they sell any times the number of cars, and because they also specialise in nearly going out of business.
This kind of thing definately puts people off buying the cars, niggles are one thing, engine rebuilds are something altogether less attractive, I know 2 people who love TVR's but would not buy a speed 6 variant, and that's not because of the niggles.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lotus source an engine from a manufacturer that they have already played a part in developing as part of their engineering consultancy business.
Fd
Some good points. But...
First, people don't buy Porsches because they're reliable, they buy them because they're Porsches. The "reliability factor" is either an excuse or a bonus, depending on how you look at it.
People who buy TVRs overlook build-quality issues and buy the cars anyway. People who say they wouldn't buy a TVR because of build-quality concerns aren't really the sort of people who would buy a TVR anyway. Just like the people who say "I'd love to drive a Lambo but they're just too tempermental". There are still people who believe Jaguars are unreliable.
Based on anecdotal reports I've seen on this site, TVR's build quality is equal to Aston Martin, Ferrari and Lamborghini.
There have been reports of problems with some Speed Six engines but have any reliable statistics been made public on these engines? What percentage of these engines have actually failed and why... Stuff like that. These boards are filled with reports from people who not only flog these cars senseless on a regular basis but understand how to take proper care of them while doing so and say they're perfectly happy with them.
Remember the old joke about how Lotus stood for "Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious"? Very amusing and meanwhile there are Esprits out there with six figures on the clock and still running like a clock.
That begs questions as to what portion of these rebuilds are caused by things like user abuse and improper maintanence which are hardly TVR's responsibility. If someone wants an idiot-proof car, they should buy a Honda or Toyota.
I'd love to see a Pareto chart of Speed Six rebuild causes. I'd also like to know the actual percentage of engine have had to be rebuilt.
JonGwynne said:
I'd love to see a Pareto chart of Speed Six rebuild causes. I'd also like to know the actual percentage of engine have had to be rebuilt.
Likewise.
You're correct in that the bad rep these engines have may be due to the vocal minority or useless dealers, or some other external cause.
Back to the original point, I still believe that Lotus should use an off the shelf engine. I believe that to do anything else is, yet again, financial suicide.
Fd
fergusd said:
JonGwynne said:
I'd love to see a Pareto chart of Speed Six rebuild causes. I'd also like to know the actual percentage of engine have had to be rebuilt.
Likewise.
You're correct in that the bad rep these engines have may be due to the vocal minority or useless dealers, or some other external cause.
Back to the original point, I still believe that Lotus should use an off the shelf engine. I believe that to do anything else is, yet again, financial suicide.
Fd
Despite persistent reliability questions (valid or otherwise), using proprietary designs hasn't proven to be suicidal for TVR and they don't have a giant, far-east firm (Proton) bankrolling them.
I think the real question has to do with the volume they want to build. If they want to stay small (a'la TVR) then their own design would not only be practical, it would probably be more profitable.
Either way, given Lotus' reputation for getting a quart out of a pint pot, the performance should be stunning.
And if Lotus insist on going shopping for an engine, let's hope they pick one worthy of the Elise and whatever its successor may be. I say Nissan. They make some of the best 4-pots around. I had a rental car once that carried their 2.4L unit and it was stunning. No gutless wonder here like some other Japanese firms I could mention. Bags of low-end torque, excellent throttle response and just imagine what Lotus could do if they get hold of it.
I picture the M250 resurrected with a turbocharged version of this engine with lightened, forged pistons, continuously-variable timing that allows a 8k redline and 350+bhp on tap.
Lotus poise and handling and lightness, TVR power and all for the price of a Boxter...
Who's with me?
If Lotus is indeed going to develop a successor to the Espirit, they'll have to produce one platform and base the new platform on the Espirit replacement and Mk.3 Elise to save costs, similar to what Porsche done when they developed the Boxter and 996.
There's no doubt that Lotus build some of the best handling cars and it would make sense to use an engine worthy of the likes of the Elise/Espirit. In an ideal world if it were me, I would source a German engine like the BMW straight six or V8 in the Morgan Aero 8...or even an engine from Audi.
I may be a little biased now that I'm an Elise owner but after living with the 111S for the best part of 3 months, the car is utterly fantastic and is without doubt the most capable car handling wise, the most communictive car that I've ever driven. I've experienced driving the likes of a Ferrari 360, Evos, Imprezas, Boxter S, Integra Type-R and TVR's and yet I would still put the Elise at the top of the pile for driver enjoyment...but it's lacking a decent engine.
Having just driven the M3 today, as I will be taking delivery of one in March, the BMW may not possess the handling qualities and involvement of my 111S, but the engine IMHO is worth the cost of the car alone. I'm frustrated when TVR owners talk about how great their cars are because of the likes of TVR Speed Six and how fantastic they sound and the straight line go that they have. I want nothing more for Lotus to put some great engines in their cars and to silence their critics. If they use a more characteristic powerplant to go with the fantastic handling, it would truly put their cars on par with the likes of Porsche.
There's no doubt that Lotus build some of the best handling cars and it would make sense to use an engine worthy of the likes of the Elise/Espirit. In an ideal world if it were me, I would source a German engine like the BMW straight six or V8 in the Morgan Aero 8...or even an engine from Audi.
I may be a little biased now that I'm an Elise owner but after living with the 111S for the best part of 3 months, the car is utterly fantastic and is without doubt the most capable car handling wise, the most communictive car that I've ever driven. I've experienced driving the likes of a Ferrari 360, Evos, Imprezas, Boxter S, Integra Type-R and TVR's and yet I would still put the Elise at the top of the pile for driver enjoyment...but it's lacking a decent engine.
Having just driven the M3 today, as I will be taking delivery of one in March, the BMW may not possess the handling qualities and involvement of my 111S, but the engine IMHO is worth the cost of the car alone. I'm frustrated when TVR owners talk about how great their cars are because of the likes of TVR Speed Six and how fantastic they sound and the straight line go that they have. I want nothing more for Lotus to put some great engines in their cars and to silence their critics. If they use a more characteristic powerplant to go with the fantastic handling, it would truly put their cars on par with the likes of Porsche.
lavaman said: If Lotus is indeed going to develop a successor to the Espirit, they'll have to produce one platform and base the new platform on the Espirit replacement and Mk.3 Elise to save costs, similar to what Porsche done when they developed the Boxter and 996.
There's no doubt that Lotus build some of the best handling cars and it would make sense to use an engine worthy of the likes of the Elise/Espirit. In an ideal world if it were me, I would source a German engine like the BMW straight six or V8 in the Morgan Aero 8...or even an engine from Audi.
I may be a little biased now that I'm an Elise owner but after living with the 111S for the best part of 3 months, the car is utterly fantastic and is without doubt the most capable car handling wise, the most communictive car that I've ever driven. I've experienced driving the likes of a Ferrari 360, Evos, Imprezas, Boxter S, Integra Type-R and TVR's and yet I would still put the Elise at the top of the pile for driver enjoyment...but it's lacking a decent engine.
Having just driven the M3 today, as I will be taking delivery of one in March, the BMW may not possess the handling qualities and involvement of my 111S, but the engine IMHO is worth the cost of the car alone. I'm frustrated when TVR owners talk about how great their cars are because of the likes of TVR Speed Six and how fantastic they sound and the straight line go that they have. I want nothing more for Lotus to put some great engines in their cars and to silence their critics. If they use a more characteristic powerplant to go with the fantastic handling, it would truly put their cars on par with the likes of Porsche.
A couple of points... (odd, a Yank leaping to the defense of the British car industry)
First, there is no question that the German make good engines. BMW's straight-six is awesome and every bit as good as Jaguar's XK, Aston Martin's six or (assuming you don't get a bad one) TVR's Speed Six.
But the Germans aren't the only ones who can make great engines. Nissan makes some corkers and so have Honda and Toyota. Are you telling me that Lotus is incapable of learning from these great designs and then doing them one better?
Also, I think it would be a mistake for them to replace the Elise. There are people who love the Elise just the way it is. What Lotus needs is not a replacement but an alternative. The M250 project had (and perhaps still has) the capability of being the "everyday" Lotus by being slightly larger, slightly heavier, more refined and more powerful. It would necessarily be more money but it could compete will a fully-specced Boxter (mid £30s) and beat the pants off it in terms of performance and handling.
Actually, you know what would be really cool is if Lotus could turn the M250 project into a "McLaren F1 for the real world". I mean offer 1+2 seating as an option. For those who have a child it would enable them to still own an awesome sports car.
JonGwynne said:
Also, I think it would be a mistake for them to replace the Elise. There are people who love the Elise just the way it is. What Lotus needs is not a replacement but an alternative. The M250 project had (and perhaps still has) the capability of being the "everyday" Lotus by being slightly larger, slightly heavier, more refined and more powerful. It would necessarily be more money but it could compete will a fully-specced Boxter (mid £30s) and beat the pants off it in terms of performance and handling.
I cannot see Lotus dropping the Elise concept, I can see Lotus producing an Esprit replacement. I would make great sense for Lotus to share technology in the Esprit replacement, ie. bonded alu Chassis, still very much state of the art for production cars. however an Esprit replacement needs a bigger engine, probably a V6 to distingush it from the Elise.
I see the Elise evolving but living a long life yet, probably powered by a 4 pot engine that can be run in the US, but I don't for one minute expect to see a V6 Elise.
I see the Esprit replacement being a 'grown up' elise, similar technology but bigger, more capable engine to defeat the added creature comforts that the next step up the ladder mandates. Still, however, a 2 seater sportscar.
To be honest I love my S1, raw as it is, I am lucky in that I also enjoy my old Audi 100 when I'm in the mood for silence, comfort and a good stereo, but owning both makes me appreciate both all the more.
I wouldn't want the Elise to become too civilised.
Fd
I posted this a few months ago but worth reposting according to club lotus they are working on an Elise and Esprit replacement which will share the same chassis to quote from Issue 3 2002 page 5
"...work has started on a new bonded aluminium platform which will be adaptable as a replacement for the Elise and ageing Esprit in three or four years time. The M250...was cancelled last year. The new car will be designed from the ouset to meet regulations throughout the world, giving the possibility of Lotus returning to the US market.....Lotus has designed a new family of engines for Proton which will start production at the end of next year and , logically, should replace the Rover K-series motor for the next generation of lotus models."
Make of that what you will
"...work has started on a new bonded aluminium platform which will be adaptable as a replacement for the Elise and ageing Esprit in three or four years time. The M250...was cancelled last year. The new car will be designed from the ouset to meet regulations throughout the world, giving the possibility of Lotus returning to the US market.....Lotus has designed a new family of engines for Proton which will start production at the end of next year and , logically, should replace the Rover K-series motor for the next generation of lotus models."
Make of that what you will
fergusd said:
JonGwynne said:
Also, I think it would be a mistake for them to replace the Elise. There are people who love the Elise just the way it is. What Lotus needs is not a replacement but an alternative. The M250 project had (and perhaps still has) the capability of being the "everyday" Lotus by being slightly larger, slightly heavier, more refined and more powerful. It would necessarily be more money but it could compete will a fully-specced Boxter (mid £30s) and beat the pants off it in terms of performance and handling.
I cannot see Lotus dropping the Elise concept, I can see Lotus producing an Esprit replacement. I would make great sense for Lotus to share technology in the Esprit replacement, ie. bonded alu Chassis, still very much state of the art for production cars. however an Esprit replacement needs a bigger engine, probably a V6 to distingush it from the Elise.
I see the Elise evolving but living a long life yet, probably powered by a 4 pot engine that can be run in the US, but I don't for one minute expect to see a V6 Elise.
I see the Esprit replacement being a 'grown up' elise, similar technology but bigger, more capable engine to defeat the added creature comforts that the next step up the ladder mandates. Still, however, a 2 seater sportscar.
To be honest I love my S1, raw as it is, I am lucky in that I also enjoy my old Audi 100 when I'm in the mood for silence, comfort and a good stereo, but owning both makes me appreciate both all the more.
I wouldn't want the Elise to become too civilised.
Fd
Actually, I think turning the Esprit into an upmarket Elise would also be a mistake. Lotus should have three cars in their lineup.
1. The Elise (and variants) starting at around £20k. Something a person looking at an MGF or MR2 Spider would consider.
2. The Esprit Replacement (top-line supercar, 400+bhp) probably with a V8, probably resembling the Esprit visually and starting at around £50k. Something a person looking at a Ferrari, Porsche 911 or TVR Tuscan/Cerbera would consider.
3. The "Middle ground". A car based on the M250 that falls somewhere in between. An opportunity for Lotus to go after the mid-range sports car market. It would have to be a realistic candidate for "daily driver" and something that a person considering a Boxter, Z4, S2000, Tamora, etc. would consider.
Obviously, it would be in Lotus' financial interest for the three cars to share as much as practical in terms of components and there would probably be some overlap in terms of engines on offer.
smeagol said: I posted this a few months ago but worth reposting according to club lotus they are working on an Elise and Esprit replacement which will share the same chassis to quote from Issue 3 2002 page 5
"...work has started on a new bonded aluminium platform which will be adaptable as a replacement for the Elise and ageing Esprit in three or four years time. The M250...was cancelled last year. The new car will be designed from the ouset to meet regulations throughout the world, giving the possibility of Lotus returning to the US market.....Lotus has designed a new family of engines for Proton which will start production at the end of next year and , logically, should replace the Rover K-series motor for the next generation of lotus models."
Make of that what you will
Yes!
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff