RE: US Elise Plans
Discussion
This might sound selfish to North Americans but I hope it dont get there, if it does make it there it will be the death of the company.
Im sure there is alot of demand for it and some very deserving would be customers but the American government changes rules for no good reason repeatedly and the constant changes which Im guessing will me made world wide will ruin the car for everyone and cost the company money.
Dont worry about boy racers getting them. Theyre only interested in going fast in a straight line and that is not where the elise excels. The elise will be faster than a lot of "boy racer" cars but not ones that will be in the same price bracket
Im sure there is alot of demand for it and some very deserving would be customers but the American government changes rules for no good reason repeatedly and the constant changes which Im guessing will me made world wide will ruin the car for everyone and cost the company money.
Dont worry about boy racers getting them. Theyre only interested in going fast in a straight line and that is not where the elise excels. The elise will be faster than a lot of "boy racer" cars but not ones that will be in the same price bracket
tupolev said:i believe i read somewhere else that this is the lotus designation for the federalised elise project...
No. The M260 will be the re-design of the cancelled M250 project, which was a V6 with a fixed roof and bigger than the Elise.
More of an 'inbetween' model to bridge the Elise to Esprit gap.
It will probably use similar design techniques to the Elise, like using a bonded aluminium chassis with a GRP body on top, but on a bigger scale.
Bye, Arno.
TheLemming said:
LotusV8 said: I just hope it isnt priced too low so dumb ricer boys wont get ahold of it and ruin it.
I also hope that it doesnt have a Jap engine in it when it comes here. I mean it cant be classified as a "Lotus" TO ME with a Toyota or Honda engine in it.
And seriosuly if it comes with a Honda engine, forget it, I aint buying it.
Does it matter what the source of the engine is?
Lotus wont be developing their own engine for it, thats a certainty. So whatever it is, it will be sourced from another manufacturer.
The S2 Elan had an Isuzu engine, the Elise currently has a Rover engine, IIRC some earlier lotuses had Ford engines. Were these all "not lotuses"?
Can you think of another company that builds better 4 cylinder engines than, for example, Honda?
The Toyota 190 4 cylinder lump thats been mooted as a front runner for the Elise is far superior to the current antiquated 118 bhp rover engine, which would you rather have?
I know which one I would choose, all things being equal.
What about the 2.2L Vauxhall engine that's in the VX-220? I believe that engine has been certified for NA sale and sold in various GM cars in the US (Vauxhall is just the UK badge for GM anyway).
Plus, it has quite a bit more grunt than the Rover K, that should satisfy all those people out there who are (erroneously) wanting to see a V6 slotted into the Elise.
But, if Lotus do go to Japan to do their engine shopping, they should seriously consider Nissan's 2.4L 4-pot. That little beast should get the Elise's wheel's spinning. Plus, the real power-junkies could slap a turbo/super-charger in and they'd have little trouble pushing it north of 300bhp.
When Lotus 'federalised' the Europa back in the '70s, they kept that one and the European model separate, so if any changes are made, hopefully we won't suffer them here. P.S. - The worst looking 'federalisation' of the lot was the old Aston Martin V8 - those plastic bumpers made it look like a cheap entry-level muscle car.
v8thunder said: When Lotus 'federalised' the Europa back in the '70s, they kept that one and the European model separate, so if any changes are made, hopefully we won't suffer them here. P.S. - The worst looking 'federalisation' of the lot was the old Aston Martin V8 - those plastic bumpers made it look like a cheap entry-level muscle car.
I hate to break it to you but the AM V8 *does* look like a muscle car. Whoever was pushing the pens in Aston's design department in the 1970s definitely had a thing for the Shelby Mustang or maybe they'd been forced to watch "Bullitt" several times back-to-back.
At its best, the V8 looks like a Detroit muscle-car sent to finishing school in England. At its worst it looks like, as you put it, a cheap muscle car - like James Bond in blue jeans and a white T-shirt with a pack of cigarettes rolled up in the sleeve.
Yikes, there's a disturbing image...
At the Auto Show, it was just about confirmed that the Elise will be equipted with a Toyota Engine. There was a guy who put a Honda Integra Type R engine on an Exige and the specs were 0-60 in 3.7sec and TP of 160mph. His job is selling Honda engines for Elise owners. He converts them for around $10K. He said a company confirmed that Lotus made a deal already for the Toyota engines. He does not favor the Toyota engines but I am a fan of them so I liked the news.
Ed-
Ed-
Arno said:
No. The M260 will be the re-design of the cancelled M250 project, which was a V6 with a fixed roof and bigger than the Elise.
More of an 'inbetween' model to bridge the Elise to Esprit gap.
It will probably use similar design techniques to the Elise, like using a bonded aluminium chassis with a GRP body on top, but on a bigger scale.
Bye, Arno.
sounds like excellent news as the m250 was a wicked looking car but what is your source? -have there been any lotus press releases on this topic or is it just hearsay (hopefully more reliable than the popgroup though)?
(Puts cynical hat on) However, I cannot see lotus reliably developing the 3 models at once -US elise, m260 and a full on esprit replacement. (replaces happy hat)
cheers
tupolev
Any indication of which Toyota engine? 4 or 6 pistons?
Was the announcement an official one or just a verbal comment by a Lotus employee?
Paul-
It was mentioned as a 6cyl. The owner of the "conversion" company said he spoke to Honda management and they said that Lotus had gone with Toyota. This guy was even handing out flyers explaining how Lotus choose a Toyota engine and that his company would take out the engine and put in a Honda Type R. He was not part of Lotus but Arnie from Lotus hinted towards Toyota but did not confirm. I would be totally content with a 6cyl Toyota engine. I also filled out a questionnaire on what features I would like from a Lotus 4 seater. It WAS confirmed that Lotus will build a 6cyl Esprit and that they WILL also build a 4 seater Lotus car like a WRX but different styling. The questionnaire took about 30min and was done along side a Lotus Engineer. LOTUS RULES!!!
Ed-
Well, as I keep saying, "I'll believe it when I see it." Smoke and Mirrors don't fool me . . . Yes it is a nice car and I'll buy one since nothing else in the US is any good, but I'm not holding my breath. I will be surprised to see it in the US though as the costs of development of the driveline and US EPA standards will make it another possible Elan M100 story. As an Elan enthusiast I can only hope it WILL have a Jap engine, though Honda would be better than Toyota (but Honda does so well why would they sell engines to Lotus, while Toyota could use the press and they are not as well off financially)--my Elan has over 200HP on a 1.6 litre engine, and has had no major problems EVER, with more than 80,000 miles. How many Esprit or even Elise drivers could EVER say that!! Toyota has that 'sequential shifter' manual on the MR2 which might be cool for the Elise, but personally I'd like a 6-speed, and I've heard the Toyota SMG is "clunky." I sure wouldn't give my money to a rip-off dealer yet to hold a place though. And why would they make more than one version for the US--unlikely. Still they might go broke just developing it for the US like they did on the Elan, so I will keep my skepticism.
A couple of American sources believe the engine to be selected for the U.S. Elise is a Toyota FOUR-cylinder (from the current Celica)
Below is Toyota's link to the 1.8 liter vvtli
www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/celica/performance/celica_performance.html
(link from Chris on the Roadfly message board)
Below is Toyota's link to the 1.8 liter vvtli
www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/celica/performance/celica_performance.html
(link from Chris on the Roadfly message board)
This is just my opinion, but is what seems most likely based on the rumours, common sense and keeping it simple.
Base model, same basic chassis as the Elise Mk2 with clamshells changed to make the feds happy and a Toyota four cylinder engine ~180bhp, 700 Kg. I would think that they would spend the minimum amount of engineer effort on changing a known good design.
"M260" stretched Elise like chassis, toyota V6 engine, bigger doors and more room inside. More livable, direct competitor to a Boxter, and taking the place of the Esprit. Could be coupe or Elise-like targa top. I'd expect it to be in the 1000 Kg ballpark.
I think thats all they will do for a while. Eventually the M260 will go upmarket, like the Esprit did and maybe get turbos or a V8, but thats something that would be funded after getting the above two models out.
I think its the minimum they need to be viable, and the most they could do in the time they have.
tupolev said:
Arno said:
No. The M260 will be the re-design of the cancelled M250 project, which was a V6 with a fixed roof and bigger than the Elise.
More of an 'inbetween' model to bridge the Elise to Esprit gap.
It will probably use similar design techniques to the Elise, like using a bonded aluminium chassis with a GRP body on top, but on a bigger scale.
Bye, Arno.
sounds like excellent news as the m250 was a wicked looking car but what is your source? -have there been any lotus press releases on this topic or is it just hearsay (hopefully more reliable than the popgroup though)?
(Puts cynical hat on) However, I cannot see lotus reliably developing the 3 models at once -US elise, m260 and a full on esprit replacement. (replaces happy hat)
cheers
tupolev
Of course they could reliably develop three models. Especially if they kept many components in common across the range. They've already proven that the development process of the Elise allows them to go from design to prototype to production in a stunning short time at a fraction of the expense of conventional methods. They've also learned from the engineering work they've done with GM and Aston Martin as well as the many years the Elise has been running.
Their best plan would be to continue to develop the Elise as-is. To try to turn it into an "american-friendly" car would prove to be a disaster for both Americans who think they want one and for people everywhere else who like the Elise as it is. How many times do we hear complaints about how a sports-car starts out brilliantly and they gradually goes soft and flabby?
What they need is a "middle car" between the full-on super-car that the Esprit replacement needs to be and the Elise which is a track-day car that can be used as a daily-driver by enthusiasts only.
This middle car would address all the objections people have to buying an Elise. It would be larger (possibly with a 2+2 option), more refined and with all the toys or options that the Boxter/Z3 crowd would expect (e.g. Air-con, CD changer, leather, sat-nav, etc). As a result, it would be heavier but even at 1000kg, a stout V6 should still get it off the line quickly and it could be made available with a optional turbo which would push 0-60 below 5 seconds. This same engine might even be offered as an option in the Elise.
The Esprit replacement has to be a real replacement - an ~$80k competitor for pointy, red Italian things. A 400+ bhp V8 and 0-60 times near 4 seconds flat.
I think you'll find that Lotus would sell only a handful of Elises (even with a DOT-friendly engine and air-con) in the US. What they could sell a ton of is the middle-car. The car that the M250 was meant to be.
Do you reckon Lotus should keep the Elise as it's *green* sports car and try and make the Esprit replacement something that can crack 200mph? Looks like every sports car manufacturer and his dog is trying that nowadays, and Lotus, despite the handling advantages of the Elise, runs the risk of getting left behind.
As for the Toyota versus Honda Engine:
Engine technology international has awarded the 2002 Trophy for the 1.8 - 2.0 liter Engines to the Honda S2000.
Increasing the weight of the Elise up to a metric ton to get it "federalised" (thats 30 %)is IMHO killing the "reason for being" of this car.
Buy one for track use only. Its the most fun there anyway.
Happy new year
Fabian
Engine technology international has awarded the 2002 Trophy for the 1.8 - 2.0 liter Engines to the Honda S2000.
Increasing the weight of the Elise up to a metric ton to get it "federalised" (thats 30 %)is IMHO killing the "reason for being" of this car.
Buy one for track use only. Its the most fun there anyway.
Happy new year
Fabian
v8thunder said: Do you reckon Lotus should keep the Elise as it's *green* sports car and try and make the Esprit replacement something that can crack 200mph? Looks like every sports car manufacturer and his dog is trying that nowadays, and Lotus, despite the handling advantages of the Elise, runs the risk of getting left behind.
The Elise is perfect for what it is: Small, light, precise - the automotive world equivalent to a 16 year-old Romanian gymnast. It should stay that way.
If people want something with more interior room, more refinement and more gizmos that doesn't mean Lotus should change the Elise to meet these expectations, they should make a new car. That's what the M250 was supposed to be: the car for people who liked the idea of the Elise but weren't able to live with the reality of one and were willing to pay a little more to get some more luxury.
Look at Mazda, they're still selling the MX5 like hotcakes. Why? Because they learned their lesson from the mistakes they made with the RX7. The RX7 died because it strayed too far from its original brief. The MX5 thrives to this day because it is still exactly the car that everyone fell in love with. They've improved it a bit over the years but they have resisted the temptation to make it bigger or more powerful or anything else that would cause it to become unrecongizable to those who love it.
If the M250 is released, Maybe it will become more popular than the Elise because it would have wider appeal. Maybe some people will trade their Elises in on one. But there will still be people buying Elises because that is the car they want and as long it makes finiancial sense for Lotus to keep selling them, they should continue to do so.
One thing I think you need to remeber is that its not Lotus that are changing their car its the USA's laws that ae changing the car. I'm sure Lotus are aware that the Elises main selling points are Handling, Power/Weight, Price etc but trying to find an engine to satisfy American laws (and as a result the majority of engines available are either Big or expensive or both) is proving difficult hence the move to Japanese engines.
I believe most US enthusiasts would love the car exactly as it is now but Uncle Sam just won't allow that.
I believe most US enthusiasts would love the car exactly as it is now but Uncle Sam just won't allow that.
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