US Elise engine chosen
Discussion
quote:
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It's just that the Elise is the wrong car to be pushed into that market and I can't see it convincing enough people for it to be a success.
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>I agree adeewuff, the Elise is completely wrong to compete against the makes you mention. The Elise is a "no frills sports car". Its whole cencept/ambiance (whatever) is not to compete with luxury cars. Lotus could be making a huge mistake.
I disagree with both of you. The US needs a no frills sports car that should stand out on performance and not sat/nav, electronic suspension, and cush amenities. Why...there is no such car offered in the US and just the enthusiasts alone would take what little volume that Lotus could supply. I have heard figures of 2000 cars a year in the states and I can’t imagine a problem with selling those kinds of numbers in the largest automobile market in the world with the right performance(i.e. more BHP, and superior handling). Even the little 122 BHP S2 won against the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, and Corvette in the high speed handling test in Junes Road & Track. Just imagine what a car with more BHP would have done! Moreover, as for interest I was at the LA auto show in January and I saw first hand the interest in the S2. In addition, I have heard of dealers in the states with dozens of deposits on a federal version of the S2.
www.pistonheads.com/lotus/default.asp?storyId=4490
Englishman in LA Yesterday (21:01)
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I don't necessarily see it as a mistake... depends on your point of view. If they are competing against the TT and the like, then 1% of that market for Lotus is a huge amount, and therefore financially a success.
I also feel that there will be a significant number of people who can afford one as a second car, which will mean that the car will spend more time doing what it was designed to do on weekend runs in the mountains, and on the track. I see that as a sucess for Lotus too, as more people will come to recognise the rapidly dissapearing car in front as a Lotus.
I agree with you Englishman in LA.
The only I see danger for Lotus on this is if the build quality is such that expensive repairs/alterations are required. From what I've read on here there are a number of such faults and Brits also (quite rightly) will not just accept all of these as part of owning a performance car, and will demand repairs.
Am I missing something?
adeewuff Yesterday (21:51)
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I don't think you're missing anything and I think the scale of the states is something that us small island Brits forget sometimes (me included!).
Lotus MUST get the cars in perfect working order at the factory rather than relying on the dealerships in the States sorting the cars out for them. I'm sure new owners to the Lotus Marque don't want to be seen as testbeds for the new engine and any problems that WILL show up!
AGREED!
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It's just that the Elise is the wrong car to be pushed into that market and I can't see it convincing enough people for it to be a success.
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>I agree adeewuff, the Elise is completely wrong to compete against the makes you mention. The Elise is a "no frills sports car". Its whole cencept/ambiance (whatever) is not to compete with luxury cars. Lotus could be making a huge mistake.
I disagree with both of you. The US needs a no frills sports car that should stand out on performance and not sat/nav, electronic suspension, and cush amenities. Why...there is no such car offered in the US and just the enthusiasts alone would take what little volume that Lotus could supply. I have heard figures of 2000 cars a year in the states and I can’t imagine a problem with selling those kinds of numbers in the largest automobile market in the world with the right performance(i.e. more BHP, and superior handling). Even the little 122 BHP S2 won against the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, and Corvette in the high speed handling test in Junes Road & Track. Just imagine what a car with more BHP would have done! Moreover, as for interest I was at the LA auto show in January and I saw first hand the interest in the S2. In addition, I have heard of dealers in the states with dozens of deposits on a federal version of the S2.
www.pistonheads.com/lotus/default.asp?storyId=4490
Englishman in LA Yesterday (21:01)
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I don't necessarily see it as a mistake... depends on your point of view. If they are competing against the TT and the like, then 1% of that market for Lotus is a huge amount, and therefore financially a success.
I also feel that there will be a significant number of people who can afford one as a second car, which will mean that the car will spend more time doing what it was designed to do on weekend runs in the mountains, and on the track. I see that as a sucess for Lotus too, as more people will come to recognise the rapidly dissapearing car in front as a Lotus.
I agree with you Englishman in LA.
The only I see danger for Lotus on this is if the build quality is such that expensive repairs/alterations are required. From what I've read on here there are a number of such faults and Brits also (quite rightly) will not just accept all of these as part of owning a performance car, and will demand repairs.
Am I missing something?
adeewuff Yesterday (21:51)
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I don't think you're missing anything and I think the scale of the states is something that us small island Brits forget sometimes (me included!).
Lotus MUST get the cars in perfect working order at the factory rather than relying on the dealerships in the States sorting the cars out for them. I'm sure new owners to the Lotus Marque don't want to be seen as testbeds for the new engine and any problems that WILL show up!
AGREED!
Teds Lotus news states that something close to all the first years production for the US is already sold!
Great! That can only be good for getting cash into Lotus.
I thought I'd post costs of some roadsters over here. These are what you will actualy pay, which depending on the car may be 1-6k above the Manufacturers Recommended Retail Price
Audi TT 180 Roadster $33,200
Audi TT 225 Roadster $38,900
BMW Z3 2.5 Roadster $31,300
BMW Z3 3.0 Roadster $37,900
BMW Z3 M Roadster $45,990
Honda S2000 $32,400
Mercedes SLK 230 $39,400
Mercedes SLK 320 $44,800
Mercedes SLK 32AMG $54,900
Nissan 350Z $26,270-34,080 (5 trims, released in 2003)
Porsche Boxster $42,600
Porsche Boxster S $51,600
Toyota MR2 $23,735
Looking at that lot, the Elise with a recommended price of 38,500 and an expected retail price of 3-4k higher, is right in the middle of the field price wise, which means to a degree it will be competing with these cars.
Obviously in handling, the Elise has no competitors, so the people buying for handling will get the Elise.
But a significant number of people looking will be looking for pose value, and in the pose market, all these cars compete.
If I wasn't getting the Elise then the Nissan 350Z looks really good for the price.
Steve
Great! That can only be good for getting cash into Lotus.
I thought I'd post costs of some roadsters over here. These are what you will actualy pay, which depending on the car may be 1-6k above the Manufacturers Recommended Retail Price
Audi TT 180 Roadster $33,200
Audi TT 225 Roadster $38,900
BMW Z3 2.5 Roadster $31,300
BMW Z3 3.0 Roadster $37,900
BMW Z3 M Roadster $45,990
Honda S2000 $32,400
Mercedes SLK 230 $39,400
Mercedes SLK 320 $44,800
Mercedes SLK 32AMG $54,900
Nissan 350Z $26,270-34,080 (5 trims, released in 2003)
Porsche Boxster $42,600
Porsche Boxster S $51,600
Toyota MR2 $23,735
Looking at that lot, the Elise with a recommended price of 38,500 and an expected retail price of 3-4k higher, is right in the middle of the field price wise, which means to a degree it will be competing with these cars.
Obviously in handling, the Elise has no competitors, so the people buying for handling will get the Elise.
But a significant number of people looking will be looking for pose value, and in the pose market, all these cars compete.
If I wasn't getting the Elise then the Nissan 350Z looks really good for the price.
Steve
first of all i think that the prices on most of those are understated after looking at as tested prices in c/d. second i think it will be in competition w/ the Z06 as well (cheapish interior, lots of performance).
Third is will the sunspeed elise be offered still?
s/c reported 192 to the wheels (well over 200 at the crank) which would blow the doors of the S2. Last point is that no one has mentioned that the Elise is a SMALL car and may be scary for SUV drivers to switch to (not to mention its tiny even compared to other sports cars).
PS wheres the RX-8? 250 hp 163lb ft 2900(~) pounds dry. Despite the four seats this will be a fast car (comparable to the S2000 and 350Z)
Third is will the sunspeed elise be offered still?
s/c reported 192 to the wheels (well over 200 at the crank) which would blow the doors of the S2. Last point is that no one has mentioned that the Elise is a SMALL car and may be scary for SUV drivers to switch to (not to mention its tiny even compared to other sports cars).
PS wheres the RX-8? 250 hp 163lb ft 2900(~) pounds dry. Despite the four seats this will be a fast car (comparable to the S2000 and 350Z)
Don't forget that top speed wise all these cars, bar the MR2, would murder it. It has a relatively high Cd for its size and does tend to struggle above 100mph even with the higher power engine. The drag can be usefully turned into to downforce though and would obviously improve 'high' speed handling.
The prices came from Yahoo autos, all at lowest possible trim, so you're right, the prices are low compared to "as tested" prices, but you can get the cars for the money...
I assume that the top speed for all these cars is almost totally irrelevant over here. even if you go to the track it would have to be a big track for the top speed to come into it.
From daily experience of driving in LA, I would say that the SUV crowd are not going to be driving elises. If you buy your car to be able to drive like a moron, (cell phone in one hand, coffee in the other) and feel safe in the knowledge that you'll walk away from almost any accident, you don't buy an Elise. (I hate SUV drivers)
On the other hand there are alot of cars of the types I priced out there, and there will be some of them who want to go smaller and more extreme. The elise is never going to comete with any of the listed cars for quantity of sales (gut feeling). I'm sure it will do alright though, and sell as many as Lotus wants to ship.
All of this suits me. I'll be driving a car that will always turn heads. If this stabalises Lotus cash flow and allows for the likes of the 250, then thats all good!
Shit. How am I supposed to wait 2 years?
Steve
I assume that the top speed for all these cars is almost totally irrelevant over here. even if you go to the track it would have to be a big track for the top speed to come into it.
From daily experience of driving in LA, I would say that the SUV crowd are not going to be driving elises. If you buy your car to be able to drive like a moron, (cell phone in one hand, coffee in the other) and feel safe in the knowledge that you'll walk away from almost any accident, you don't buy an Elise. (I hate SUV drivers)
On the other hand there are alot of cars of the types I priced out there, and there will be some of them who want to go smaller and more extreme. The elise is never going to comete with any of the listed cars for quantity of sales (gut feeling). I'm sure it will do alright though, and sell as many as Lotus wants to ship.
All of this suits me. I'll be driving a car that will always turn heads. If this stabalises Lotus cash flow and allows for the likes of the 250, then thats all good!
Shit. How am I supposed to wait 2 years?
Steve
I wouldn't say top speed does not matter over here. It's definately not as big a selling point for the American market as 0-60 speeds or raw HP numbers, but when you get outside of the big cities you can bet sportscar owners like to be able to top 100 comfortably.
Having said that, I am definately hoping to pay off my Esprit early, if for no other reason than to be able to Buy an Elise down the road.
It's great news to hear the first run is sold out. I am desperately hoping for a big Elise success for Lotus. As for it's competitors, it will never be a Z06 adversary. Completely different buyers, IMO. It will compete with the Kompressors and the TTs quite well tho. And there will be a great amount of room to compete too. You have to remember, that after this year the Firebird and Camaro go bye-bye. There no longer is a viable middle of the road sportscar for the mass market. It's either a Mustnag (low end) or you jump directly into a higher bracket for a proper sports car. That's good news for Lotus, and all the other manufacturers listed above.
BTW, I know the Stang was blowing the doors off GM's pony cars sales-wise, but was that the dumbest decision or what (to kill the bird-maro)? Redesign the damn things for 04. Don't just surrender the market to Ford. Oh well, sportscar buyers will be looking elsewhere now, and hopefully they'll find the Elise.
Having said that, I am definately hoping to pay off my Esprit early, if for no other reason than to be able to Buy an Elise down the road.
It's great news to hear the first run is sold out. I am desperately hoping for a big Elise success for Lotus. As for it's competitors, it will never be a Z06 adversary. Completely different buyers, IMO. It will compete with the Kompressors and the TTs quite well tho. And there will be a great amount of room to compete too. You have to remember, that after this year the Firebird and Camaro go bye-bye. There no longer is a viable middle of the road sportscar for the mass market. It's either a Mustnag (low end) or you jump directly into a higher bracket for a proper sports car. That's good news for Lotus, and all the other manufacturers listed above.
BTW, I know the Stang was blowing the doors off GM's pony cars sales-wise, but was that the dumbest decision or what (to kill the bird-maro)? Redesign the damn things for 04. Don't just surrender the market to Ford. Oh well, sportscar buyers will be looking elsewhere now, and hopefully they'll find the Elise.
You have to remember that the biggest selling point of the Z06 is its performance/dollar ratio. If the elise comes near this then people who are trying to convince themselves that the Z06 is the fastest for the money will think twice. The places where the Z06 triumphs are ease of ingress egress (ironic i know but important to a 350lb american) space once your're in, general creature comforts and the fact that its a chevy and therefore has the homefield advantage (all too often important to americans).
Actually you mentioning the weight/size issue has made me think this could be an important deciding factor for a potential customer. I weigh 185lbs and I'm 6ft tall. Anyone significantly bigger, in either dimension, would struggle to actually get in or out of the car with any ease. Even then they might find the narrow sports seats and small footwell a little too 'compromised' to say the least. Did any of you guys with orders have a chance to get in to the car at the motor show?
Yup, I got in an S2 at the show. It didn't have a roof on, so I can't judge the getting in and out... But once I was in it was comfortable. (5,10" and 170lbs) My only concern is the pedal spacing, I need to get narrower shoes so I can hit the load pedal without also hitting the brake....
I've also been in a latest model 'vette, and theres no doubt that its a good car, with more creature comforts and higher top speed than the Elise. Its also 10k more than the Elise and as common as muck, at least here in LA.
I've also been in a latest model 'vette, and theres no doubt that its a good car, with more creature comforts and higher top speed than the Elise. Its also 10k more than the Elise and as common as muck, at least here in LA.
I haven't been able to sit in an S2 yet but I've tried an S1. I'm 5'10" and 165lbs and it was easy to slide in - how do the two versions compare size-wise inside?
I seriously doubt that a former Camero/Firebird owner (or prospective buyer) is going to be interested in the Elise. Even vette customers are probably not going to very interested in the Elise. However, there are plenty of enthusiasts that will see the value in the handling and power to weight ratio - assuming the S2 arrives on american shores with around 190Hp. Is there any news to contradict the toyota engine being the one?
I can't wait to get the Elise and push it a bit. Does anyone have experience in trying different size tires on the S2 for track days? I need to stick with the stock wheel size but I'm wondering if there's an optimal tire size that everyone is using...
Cheers,
-Max
I seriously doubt that a former Camero/Firebird owner (or prospective buyer) is going to be interested in the Elise. Even vette customers are probably not going to very interested in the Elise. However, there are plenty of enthusiasts that will see the value in the handling and power to weight ratio - assuming the S2 arrives on american shores with around 190Hp. Is there any news to contradict the toyota engine being the one?
I can't wait to get the Elise and push it a bit. Does anyone have experience in trying different size tires on the S2 for track days? I need to stick with the stock wheel size but I'm wondering if there's an optimal tire size that everyone is using...
Cheers,
-Max
On the size thing - I'm 6 foot 3 and have no trouble once I'm in the car (S2) - getting in can be tricky bt have got that sorted now - provided I can open the door all the way - which I can't in my garage, so I just fold half the roof up.
I did take a mate for a spin however who is 6 foot 2 (so no probs length ways but he weighs 19 stone (266 pounds for our american friends) and the cabin was cramped, he also drastically influenced the power to weight ratio!
n209385
I did take a mate for a spin however who is 6 foot 2 (so no probs length ways but he weighs 19 stone (266 pounds for our american friends) and the cabin was cramped, he also drastically influenced the power to weight ratio!
n209385
The AC doesn't add that much.
I balanced out my car on scales,
as I have the adjustable
motor sport suspension
with a full tank, hardtop, A/C
It was 1776 lbs (60/40 R/F).
After living with a regular S1
and driving it a lot, I wanted A/C
to dry it out when the rain comes
in and keep it cool when the sun
comes out.....
I balanced out my car on scales,
as I have the adjustable
motor sport suspension
with a full tank, hardtop, A/C
It was 1776 lbs (60/40 R/F).
After living with a regular S1
and driving it a lot, I wanted A/C
to dry it out when the rain comes
in and keep it cool when the sun
comes out.....
The fact is IMHO, that here in the US the typical driver of the aforementioned cars is not the real "enthusiast" that will be lured away from their 'creature comfort/performance' vehicles. Will the tiny percentage of hardcore afficionados that will be drawn to the Lotus be enough to make it a worthwhile venture here in the States? Who knows, I really hope so.
quote:
Instead of using the Toyota high-rev engine, why don't Lotus just slap a supercharger on the Rover 1.8L unit?
It may sound low tech, but I think it is more cost-effective as well as getting better low-end torque which is so desirable in the NA market. Besides, the add-on shouldn't weight a lot either.
quote:
The fact is IMHO, that here in the US the typical driver of the aforementioned cars is not the real "enthusiast" that will be lured away from their 'creature comfort/performance' vehicles. Will the tiny percentage of hardcore afficionados that will be drawn to the Lotus be enough to make it a worthwhile venture here in the States? Who knows, I really hope so.
Given the volumes that Lotus sells in, and the huge size of the US market, and the sheer number of car nuts and immigrant Europeans I have no doubt that Lotus can find a market. There was a Mk2 Elise at the Palo Alto (California) concours show and the local Lotus dealer was taking lots of deposits. The nearest things to an Elise over here are the Boxter (similar price range) and Toyota MR2. Both sell well but they look big and heavy next to an Elise.
You don't need torque in an Elise, its light, torque is for heavy cars.
I personally think the Honda B18C VTEC engine suits the Elise extremely well. Its light, it fits (just), it has plenty of power (200+ bhp) and there are a few running around the USA to prove it...
I think the good reputation of the Honda engine would allow Lotus to charge more for the car.
main problem is that the Elise tach only goes to 8000 rpm, so the "redline" is somewhere just past the Fuel readout :-) :-)
FastSpider:
Thanks once again for the ride the other day... I've been intending to e mail you with a couple of pictures but haven't got round to it yet.
If I get an elise the goes like yours it will be worth the wait.
The Honda engine you are talking about is the the S2000 one? That whould be nice...
Steve
Thanks once again for the ride the other day... I've been intending to e mail you with a couple of pictures but haven't got round to it yet.
If I get an elise the goes like yours it will be worth the wait.
The Honda engine you are talking about is the the S2000 one? That whould be nice...
Steve
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