US Elise engine chosen
Discussion
quote:
The Honda engine you are talking about is the the S2000 one? That whould be nice...
The B18C is the old 1.8L Integra Type R engine. I think the 2.0L Integra RSX and the 2.0L S2000 engines are physically bigger heavier and harder to package. Perhaps the Civic's 1.6 would work? They are all far better than the K-series.
I did 9000 miles (in the UK) in a 1998 Elise, and 5000 miles (so far - in the US) with a sunspeed B18C powered Elise, so I'm not just gassing :-)
Not so, Fast Spider!
The K20A and F20C Honda engines fit the engine bay significantly better than either the Rover or the B18C,
and they all weigh within a few pounds of each other.
No exhaust system or gearchange mechanism underneath.
Result: Crankshaft centerline is nearly 50mm lower,
and over 30mm farther foreward than the Rover or B18C.
Better weight distribution, a lower C.G., and more Torque/HP, plus a 6 speed LSD trans. Sound good?
Go to www.prototyperacing.com to see photos of the initial K20A engine fitting. I'm currently in the process of building all the parts required for the installation kit. I designed what's in your car now,
so I do know what I'm talking about.
Joe
The K20A and F20C Honda engines fit the engine bay significantly better than either the Rover or the B18C,
and they all weigh within a few pounds of each other.
No exhaust system or gearchange mechanism underneath.
Result: Crankshaft centerline is nearly 50mm lower,
and over 30mm farther foreward than the Rover or B18C.
Better weight distribution, a lower C.G., and more Torque/HP, plus a 6 speed LSD trans. Sound good?
Go to www.prototyperacing.com to see photos of the initial K20A engine fitting. I'm currently in the process of building all the parts required for the installation kit. I designed what's in your car now,
so I do know what I'm talking about.
Joe
quote:
The K20A and F20C Honda engines fit the engine bay significantly better than either the Rover or the B18C,.
I designed what's in your car now,
so I do know what I'm talking about.
Joe
This is good news, I wish Lotus would pick a Honda engine.....
The parts in my car are "Mk4" of the B18C conversion. A lot of improvements were made over the "Mk2" that you built back when you were working with SunSpeed.
best wishes, the more VTEC Elises the better!
It's certainly good news for those progressive minded enough to convert to Honda VTEC power, however I doubt Honda would see fit to supply Lotus with engines for Elise production. They have difficulty producing enough of the 220HP Type R (K20A) for the world market as it is. Presently, only the 200HP (K20A-2) is available outside Asia. I have a source for good, low mileage, K20A's, as well as F20C's (S-2000), but as you know, new Honda's from Spoon are a fairly pricey venture. Still a bargain compared to a 220HP Rover K from PTP at over $18,000, and that's engine only!
BTW, I'll soon have a solution for your "only 8,000"
Tachometer situation. E-mail me at joe@prototyperacing.com for the details. I'll be in the Bay area in a couple of weeks, maybe we could get together and talk.
Joe
BTW, I'll soon have a solution for your "only 8,000"
Tachometer situation. E-mail me at joe@prototyperacing.com for the details. I'll be in the Bay area in a couple of weeks, maybe we could get together and talk.
Joe
If you guys want more power why not go aftermarket hybrid and get the best of both worlds. You want a nice small engine that's nice and light to keep the elise a cornering and accelerating GOD but how about having power and top speed that you can't even dream about without wetting yourself. What I'm talking about is the honda integra type r engine (b18-c). Even standard this thing would kick ass (187bhp I think). I don't now how much the block weighs but it is known to be very light and seing as you can squeeeeeze around 800hp (yes 800hp) out of it you don't really need to care about the weight cos it's definately gonna be worth it. It would be like driving a formula 1 car litteraly. It's probably never been done but I bet it could be. If your interested go to JG Engine Dynamic's website and check out what they can do to an already incredible engine. Of course this would be a fairly big project and you'd have to upgrade your brakes etc. But just imagine it- 0-60mph in maybe under 3 secs top speeds over 180 mph 1/4 mile of 8-9 secs without compromising the elise' cornering much if at all. The elise would be even harder and more scary than it looks.
Now if you lot are serious about a better elise then think about what I'm saying and how original it would be. But if your just here whinning about the elise being only 99% perfect and aint gonna do shit about it then stop being so stupid!!!
Now if you lot are serious about a better elise then think about what I'm saying and how original it would be. But if your just here whinning about the elise being only 99% perfect and aint gonna do shit about it then stop being so stupid!!!
Hey Hackerboy,
I know Scott Revell, who is one of the owners of JG, and in conjunction with Edelbrock they have indeed made 830HP out of a 1920cc B-series Honda, Turbocharged with lots of boost. However, we're talking about street, and track day cars here, not 9 second drag racers. Anybody ever see 830HP out of a Rover K?
I know Scott Revell, who is one of the owners of JG, and in conjunction with Edelbrock they have indeed made 830HP out of a 1920cc B-series Honda, Turbocharged with lots of boost. However, we're talking about street, and track day cars here, not 9 second drag racers. Anybody ever see 830HP out of a Rover K?
You got a point Joe but the elise would make a fantastic dragster anyway. But you wouldn't have to have that much hp maybe you could just have an all motor b18c or something with under 300 hp or a b16a or something thinking straigh now an 830hp elise would probably end up flying or snapping in half or something crazy like thaT. All I'm saying is that honda engines are worshipped for a good reason and some honda engine setup would make a legendary car. But you've got to admit that 830hp out of what was a 1.8lt is awesome.
Anyway from one crazy idea to another I was watching 5th gear a while back (a british car program) and they did a feature on a race car league where the cars had motor bike engines in them. Now that would be fantastic! An ultra lightweight engine with big power that should easily fit. Youd probably end up having to add weight to keep the handling the same. Anyway my mechanical knowledge is very basic (I just like cars) so if anyone knows how they do this or if it has been done in an elise/exige or if can even be done please say so.
Anyway from one crazy idea to another I was watching 5th gear a while back (a british car program) and they did a feature on a race car league where the cars had motor bike engines in them. Now that would be fantastic! An ultra lightweight engine with big power that should easily fit. Youd probably end up having to add weight to keep the handling the same. Anyway my mechanical knowledge is very basic (I just like cars) so if anyone knows how they do this or if it has been done in an elise/exige or if can even be done please say so.
This forum needs an argument-
Which would you prefer the elise or the exige and why.
For me I'd go with the exige because it looks even more way out than the elise especialy the vent on the roof and as far as I know it's an elise with the power the elise owners whine about. But maybe I'm missing something other than the price difference. I think that with an exige and a NoS system (not just a boost button) you would be completely happy if that's possible.
I reckon the way everyone in this forum sounds they would eventually build up untill they did stick over 800hp in their bay and then more.
Anyway if you think I just chat rubbish and don't now anything then tell me so and we can a very pleasurable boredom relieving argument- please don't hold back I won't cry, honest.
Which would you prefer the elise or the exige and why.
For me I'd go with the exige because it looks even more way out than the elise especialy the vent on the roof and as far as I know it's an elise with the power the elise owners whine about. But maybe I'm missing something other than the price difference. I think that with an exige and a NoS system (not just a boost button) you would be completely happy if that's possible.
I reckon the way everyone in this forum sounds they would eventually build up untill they did stick over 800hp in their bay and then more.
Anyway if you think I just chat rubbish and don't now anything then tell me so and we can a very pleasurable boredom relieving argument- please don't hold back I won't cry, honest.
Just a thought from a former Toyota Celica GTS owner here. I personnally owned a 2001 6-speed for about 23,000 miles. The car was fairly comfortable, handled great, and had outstanding brakes. The 2ZZ engine on the other hand was not made with the typical Toyota quality. The head needed a rebuild at 10,000 miles because of bent valves (no mis-shift here either, although mis-shifting this engine results in catastrophic engine failure). This has been the experience of many GTS owners (the GT model does not have the 2ZZ engine). The reason I got rid of the car was because of the engine. Not because it needed the head rebuild, who knows if it ever would have happened again. The motor just has no torque, to find the torque and horsepower, you have to really run the engine out to redline. At times it sounds sweet, but when you just want to pass someone, it gets annoying. I'm sure with a 1800 pound car, it's going to be fast enough, but I'm one of those americans that has to have the torque kick me in the ass. It is very difficult to supercharge or turbocharge the 2ZZ motor, anyone with a celica GTS will tell you that, and it isn't just because of the lack of a return fuel line. If you plan to put this engine under the strains of boost, be prepared to pay. I asked for my Elise deposit back as soon as I heard they were more than likely going to use this engine. I'd have prefered the GM Ecotech engine, it's got better torque and takes to forced induction easily. I'm sure there are some people over here that will still buy the car because it handles, looks great, and will definitely still be fast. But there are a lot of people who drive S2000's because of the way they look and handle, but can't stand revving the engine up to 9 grand. I'm not bashing this motor choice, I'm just saying that there are a few cons to it. Some will like the VVTL-i, some won't like the lack of torque. Those of you in the US that do buy the car, I'll envy you because I was high on the list in NYC, and really wanted the car. I just can't stand the engine choice. If they switch to another engine, I'm go back on the list, although I guess I'll have to wait a lot longer. I know this post is long, but I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism. No flames please.
Given the law enacted in CA today limiting green house gas emissions, the Elise may wind up being the only game in town. The handwriting is on the wall and I believe someday in the not so distant future manufactures won't be qouting HP, rather they'll be touting power to weight ratios. Advantage, hopefully, Elise.
As far as the cars listed for price comparisons above, none of them are remotely comparable to the Elise. The only real competitors in the US market today are the Caterham, the Birkin, WCM and the like. The listed cars clearly favor streetability over outright performance (save perhaps the Z06), which is why many of us spend a heck of a lot of money in the aftermarket making them track drivable (seen what a coilover setup and set of Fikses with R-Compounds costs for a Porsche? I have, I 've got a 996 C2, we're talking installed and setup at ~$10Gs here).
There will be a few enlightened souls or fools depending on your point of view, who will suffer whatever other indignities they must, simply to be able to take the 90 degree turn into their driveway at 60MPH. If others don't like the value proposition or need a year round go in snow car...they can shop from the list of 3400lb GT cars with traction control, ABS, all wheel drive, and stability management and be happy. Just lets allow some of us who've bemoaned the upmarket move in '74 a chance to have our Elan back. We've waited long enough.
As far as the cars listed for price comparisons above, none of them are remotely comparable to the Elise. The only real competitors in the US market today are the Caterham, the Birkin, WCM and the like. The listed cars clearly favor streetability over outright performance (save perhaps the Z06), which is why many of us spend a heck of a lot of money in the aftermarket making them track drivable (seen what a coilover setup and set of Fikses with R-Compounds costs for a Porsche? I have, I 've got a 996 C2, we're talking installed and setup at ~$10Gs here).
There will be a few enlightened souls or fools depending on your point of view, who will suffer whatever other indignities they must, simply to be able to take the 90 degree turn into their driveway at 60MPH. If others don't like the value proposition or need a year round go in snow car...they can shop from the list of 3400lb GT cars with traction control, ABS, all wheel drive, and stability management and be happy. Just lets allow some of us who've bemoaned the upmarket move in '74 a chance to have our Elan back. We've waited long enough.
To: HighSpeedLowDrag
Check the July issue of Sport Compact to see the relative ease of turbocharging the 2ZZ-GE Toyota. With only .5 Bar of pressure the Torque went from 116 to 168lb/ft, and the HP went from 159 to 234, and these are wheel Torque/HP figures. I doubt seriously that Lotus will be using Toyota Engines in the US Elise, if that ever happens. The GM 2.2 Ecotec has already been done in the Opel/Vauxhall cars, and GM, unlike Toyota, is in pretty poor condition financially, and will be more likely to cut Lotus an attractive deal. I have engineer friends at Toyota who admit, after a few beers, that Toyota is a "babe in the woods" where it comes to producing engines like Honda's VTEC for production cars. You should've let the Lotus Dealer keep your deposit! The 2ZZ powered Elise is nothing more than hot gas.
To: RJay
California's Eco-Slap on Bush's cheek is certainly well deserved, but that notwithstanding, we Americans have a long and rich history of producing some of the most energy-inefficient cars on the planet. It's really refreshing to see so many people excited at the prospect of driving the oh, so un-American Elise.
IMHO, the Automobile has become too damn complex! The Elise is the cure for that disease, and the more that Lotus sells, the more the other OEM's will recognize there's a ripe market for that type of car, and they'll follow suit. Not much original thinking in this business, you know? As to steetability vs outright performance, why not both? That's what I'm doing with my Exige. Combine one of the best handling, most efficient cars with the highest specific output engines that are all certified "low emissions" by EPA.
Take a peek at www.prototyperacing.com and you'll see what I'm up to.
Check the July issue of Sport Compact to see the relative ease of turbocharging the 2ZZ-GE Toyota. With only .5 Bar of pressure the Torque went from 116 to 168lb/ft, and the HP went from 159 to 234, and these are wheel Torque/HP figures. I doubt seriously that Lotus will be using Toyota Engines in the US Elise, if that ever happens. The GM 2.2 Ecotec has already been done in the Opel/Vauxhall cars, and GM, unlike Toyota, is in pretty poor condition financially, and will be more likely to cut Lotus an attractive deal. I have engineer friends at Toyota who admit, after a few beers, that Toyota is a "babe in the woods" where it comes to producing engines like Honda's VTEC for production cars. You should've let the Lotus Dealer keep your deposit! The 2ZZ powered Elise is nothing more than hot gas.
To: RJay
California's Eco-Slap on Bush's cheek is certainly well deserved, but that notwithstanding, we Americans have a long and rich history of producing some of the most energy-inefficient cars on the planet. It's really refreshing to see so many people excited at the prospect of driving the oh, so un-American Elise.
IMHO, the Automobile has become too damn complex! The Elise is the cure for that disease, and the more that Lotus sells, the more the other OEM's will recognize there's a ripe market for that type of car, and they'll follow suit. Not much original thinking in this business, you know? As to steetability vs outright performance, why not both? That's what I'm doing with my Exige. Combine one of the best handling, most efficient cars with the highest specific output engines that are all certified "low emissions" by EPA.
Take a peek at www.prototyperacing.com and you'll see what I'm up to.
quote:
What I'm talking about is the honda integra type r engine (b18-c). Even standard this thing would kick ass (187bhp I think).
It would be a good idea to read the whole thread before you post... :-)
I drive a Honda B18C powered Elise. I have over 200bhp and 4.3s 0-60 and still do 30 mpg (US) and expect my engine to last a long time, as I drive it to work most days. More power reduces engine life. If someone wants to go drag racing, get one of Joes VTEC conversions and put nitrous injection on it. You can get custom driveshafts at driveshaftshop.com, and you will need them....
quote:
FastSpider:
Honda powered Elise... very impressive! Can you post some pictures of the engine compartment of your Elise? Just wondering what the engine installation looks like, thanks.
The bulkhead to the luggage compartment is cut away a bit to make space for the inlet manifold. Other than that you cant see anything apart from a big red cylinder head. All the hard work is out of sight.
quote:
Instead of using the Toyota high-rev engine, why don't Lotus just slap a supercharger on the Rover 1.8L unit?
In a word - emmissions.
In the US they don't care how much fuel you burn as long as it's done cleanly. I can't work out why they don't use the 2.2 from the VX220/Speedster. It's a GM engine so must be US legal and it's already engineered into the VX220 (as is the airbag and ABS).
quote:
Don't forget that top speed wise all these cars, bar the MR2, would murder it. It has a relatively high Cd for its size and does tend to struggle above 100mph even with the higher power engine. The drag can be usefully turned into to downforce though and would obviously improve 'high' speed handling.
Cd is the drag coeficient of the shape, it is independant of size. The Elise is small so although it has a high Cd it's drag shouldn't be that bad compared to something of normal height. What's the fastest anyone has got out of an Elise fitted with a real engine with gearing changed to match?
While downforce does usually lead to increased drag you can't magically convert drag into downforce. Besides, lots of downforce means either lots of suspension compression at high speed (bad) or very hard springs (also bad). And there's always the problem of the dirty air behind oncoming traffic screwing up your downforce as you're cornering.
Downforce - good on tracks, should be limited on road cars.
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