The REAL cost of owning a Lotus Elise
Discussion
cyberface said:
...the incidence of HGF doesn't appear to be strictly correlated with user 'sympathy' as plenty of religious 'no more than 30% throttle and 3000 rpm until hot' types have had HGF, along with owners who rag from cold who haven't.
I don't know of any of the "no more than 30%..." types who've had them fail more than once. Once the liner heights etc. are correct (and yes, of course Rover should have got that right out of the factory, but they didn't) and a good gasket is used, it really shouldn't go unless you seriously abuse the engine. No idea what my engine is like from that point of view but I really don't care if it does go. What's 500 quid compared to the other costs of running a car like the Elise?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 2nd February 20:27
Jim,
You should know by now I am very sympathetic in my driving style! My previous car was never bounced off of the rev limiter until those two little figure got to at least 90! Just because those stupid brummy (no offence to brummies in general, just Rover engine building ones) engine builders didn't know the meaning of tolerance or were half way through their tea break and forgot the finer details of engine liner heights!
You as well as many other people are one of the lucky ones, but I do seem to remember you had a top end rebuild at which point they said HGF was coming very soon!
I brought a Lotus to drive like a racing car and I did not expect it to expire like a cheap Italian so often.
However, I have been assured that the Toyota engine is bullet proof!
You should know by now I am very sympathetic in my driving style! My previous car was never bounced off of the rev limiter until those two little figure got to at least 90! Just because those stupid brummy (no offence to brummies in general, just Rover engine building ones) engine builders didn't know the meaning of tolerance or were half way through their tea break and forgot the finer details of engine liner heights!
You as well as many other people are one of the lucky ones, but I do seem to remember you had a top end rebuild at which point they said HGF was coming very soon!
I brought a Lotus to drive like a racing car and I did not expect it to expire like a cheap Italian so often.
However, I have been assured that the Toyota engine is bullet proof!
t, however.kevin ritson said:
LRGS2 said:
However, I have been assured that the Toyota engine is bullet proof!
In which case buy a bullet-proof vestkevin ritson said:
Wow, that's 4 issues for starters, hardly bulletproof, are they?
No it's 2 issues on early 140 engines (now fixed) and one that applies to many road cars and is easily fixed if your going to be tracking the car lots. The 190 only issue appears to be not the engine but the user. I doubt a well experienced driver would hit 3rd when they wanted 5th. I'd bet on taking 100 K series owners and 100 toyota owners on over 5 years of ownership it'd be the K series owners forking out more often to fix it.Edited by Herman Toothrot on Thursday 4th February 22:55
lamb jiblets said:
LRGS2 said:
Jim,
You should know by now I am very sympathetic in my driving style! My previous car was never bounced off of the rev limiter until those two little figure got to at least 90! Just because those stupid brummy (no offence to brummies in general, just Rover engine building ones) engine builders didn't know the meaning of tolerance or were half way through their tea break and forgot the finer details of engine liner heights!
You as well as many other people are one of the lucky ones, but I do seem to remember you had a top end rebuild at which point they said HGF was coming very soon!
I brought a Lotus to drive like a racing car and I did not expect it to expire like a cheap Italian so often.
However, I have been assured that the Toyota engine is bullet proof!
Bullet proof !!!! Have you seen the news thisweek !! I thought Toyota was apologizingYou should know by now I am very sympathetic in my driving style! My previous car was never bounced off of the rev limiter until those two little figure got to at least 90! Just because those stupid brummy (no offence to brummies in general, just Rover engine building ones) engine builders didn't know the meaning of tolerance or were half way through their tea break and forgot the finer details of engine liner heights!
You as well as many other people are one of the lucky ones, but I do seem to remember you had a top end rebuild at which point they said HGF was coming very soon!
I brought a Lotus to drive like a racing car and I did not expect it to expire like a cheap Italian so often.
However, I have been assured that the Toyota engine is bullet proof!
to you personaly in advance
The point about K series engines being built right in the first place is a fair point however knowing that there is a strong probability they are not (ask early 1.8K freelander owenrs too) should suggest there is a potential flaw to ownership you should be considerate of.
If you do not benefit from the experience of others (or indeed yourself) then more fool you.
IT JOKE:
A consultant, an analyst and a programmer are driving down hill. Suddenly the brakes fail. The driver manages to steer the car into a gravel trap and stop it. All 3 jump out.
The consultant says "Lets get the manual out and see if we can fix it"
The analyst says "No, let's pop the bonnet up, get out the tool kit and see if we can fix it" and
The programmer says "Heck no, let's get back in there and see if it happens again!"
You make your own luck in life
If you do not benefit from the experience of others (or indeed yourself) then more fool you.
IT JOKE:
A consultant, an analyst and a programmer are driving down hill. Suddenly the brakes fail. The driver manages to steer the car into a gravel trap and stop it. All 3 jump out.
The consultant says "Lets get the manual out and see if we can fix it"
The analyst says "No, let's pop the bonnet up, get out the tool kit and see if we can fix it" and
The programmer says "Heck no, let's get back in there and see if it happens again!"
You make your own luck in life
Grinnders said:
The point about K series engines being built right in the first place is a fair point however knowing that there is a strong probability they are not (ask early 1.8K freelander owenrs too) should suggest there is a potential flaw to ownership you should be considerate of.
If you do not benefit from the experience of others (or indeed yourself) then more fool you.
My take on this would be that you find out whether the engine has been screwed together properly at the first HGF repair. If the garage doing the job checked the liner heights the hardness of the head, and whether or not there were any breaches or porosity near the fire rings, and all of these things check out OK, then you are going to be pretty unlucky to suffer another HGF. After 3 failures you have to wonder whether the repairs were done properly, or whether there is an underlying fault that needed to be fixed and wasn't.If you do not benefit from the experience of others (or indeed yourself) then more fool you.
Incredible Sulk said:
Grinnders said:
The point about K series engines being built right in the first place is a fair point however knowing that there is a strong probability they are not (ask early 1.8K freelander owenrs too) should suggest there is a potential flaw to ownership you should be considerate of.
If you do not benefit from the experience of others (or indeed yourself) then more fool you.
My take on this would be that you find out whether the engine has been screwed together properly at the first HGF repair. If the garage doing the job checked the liner heights the hardness of the head, and whether or not there were any breaches or porosity near the fire rings, and all of these things check out OK, then you are going to be pretty unlucky to suffer another HGF. After 3 failures you have to wonder whether the repairs were done properly, or whether there is an underlying fault that needed to be fixed and wasn't.If you do not benefit from the experience of others (or indeed yourself) then more fool you.
I think thats a good point well made.
I have had my std S1 for 5 years now, after a year of ownership I took it to Tech Speed nr Gaydon for a few more bhp, they re built my engine with PTP doing the head work and other bits and bobs dowls, open up all the crap casting in the head and exhaust. the long and the short is they had it 3 weeks, the result was 142 bhp, in the past 4 years Ive done over 12 track days and 30k miles and not a peep out of it,lucky or good engineering ?
I think more the latter.
Just out of interest how many HG have gone again once Dave Andrews has fixed them,? I would think not many
Edited by lamb jiblets on Saturday 6th February 11:19
Obviously not your level of commitment James, but 9 years of ownership of mine by me from New. No cold mistreatment. No HGF.
Even if you treat your car well (you in the general PH reader way - not lamb_jiblets) you cannot vouch for the former owners. It can be a bit of a lottery for a second hand buyer, and sadly, a classifieds claim of a "careful owner" is no guarantee.
Even if you treat your car well (you in the general PH reader way - not lamb_jiblets) you cannot vouch for the former owners. It can be a bit of a lottery for a second hand buyer, and sadly, a classifieds claim of a "careful owner" is no guarantee.
If your head gasket does go after 50,000 miles, then you've already saved £1500 in fuel over a Toyota engine. Factor in VED (and this year the difference between a 111S and 111R is £100 a year) and you've more than paid for the trip to Dave Andrews. Which will leave you 10bhp under a 111R with none of the weight and the same fuel economy you enjoyed before.
As we're considering costs over the lifetime of the car...
As we're considering costs over the lifetime of the car...
kevin ritson said:
If your head gasket does go after 50,000 miles, then you've already saved £1500 in fuel over a Toyota engine. Factor in VED (and this year the difference between a 111S and 111R is £100 a year) and you've more than paid for the trip to Dave Andrews. Which will leave you 10bhp under a 111R with none of the weight and the same fuel economy you enjoyed before.
As we're considering costs over the lifetime of the car...
It's a good point, but it's not all about money and you also have to factor in all the inconvenience too - great if it happens on holiday in Sicily and you're stuck with a Fiat.... ; and Dave Andrews isn't some turn up and he'll fit you in at 3.00pm type operation so you may well be without your car for a while. (Edit: just to mention that if I needed a K-series rebuilt/fixed, I'd want Dave Andrews to do it, even if it meant a slightly longer turnaround.)As we're considering costs over the lifetime of the car...
Edited by dom180 on Saturday 6th February 19:14
Grinnders, I assume someone eventually got to the bottom of why you had so many failures in such a short period.
My first guess would be a particularly crap head and failure to identify that. Could also be a dropped l;iner that hadn't been picked up.
Anyway hope you've had a decent run of luck............still waiting for mine to go at 73k.....tick,tock.....
My first guess would be a particularly crap head and failure to identify that. Could also be a dropped l;iner that hadn't been picked up.
Anyway hope you've had a decent run of luck............still waiting for mine to go at 73k.....tick,tock.....
TIPPER said:
Grinnders, I assume someone eventually got to the bottom of why you had so many failures in such a short period.
My first guess would be a particularly crap head and failure to identify that. Could also be a dropped l;iner that hadn't been picked up.
Anyway hope you've had a decent run of luck............still waiting for mine to go at 73k.....tick,tock.....
Tipper. You've got the wrong guy. Re-read the thread. I HAD NO HGFs and I believe that is partly down to considerate treatment when cold. This is the message I was trying to convey.My first guess would be a particularly crap head and failure to identify that. Could also be a dropped l;iner that hadn't been picked up.
Anyway hope you've had a decent run of luck............still waiting for mine to go at 73k.....tick,tock.....
Mine had a new head which was a known good hard one from DVA. I was hoping to get away with the 2 thou protrusion of the liners by removing the shims on the end of the head gasket to get a bit more bite as this is trick that sometimes works. Unfortunately for me it didn't! So without fitting over sized liners or dropping the engine and skimming the block my problem would not go away so on went another gasket and off she went to Belgium.
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