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Herman Toothrot

5,745 posts

84 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
in short, yes.
What about a Celica GTS Apexi Power FC? Should I'd have thought be plug in, no wiring alterations and simply get mapped?


I'm deliberating over one for my 2ZZ swap MR2. Only £700 from Nengun plus calibration if you can't or don't want to do it yourself. Not the most powerful standalone ECU but it's simple and designed to be plug and play for a certain engine. 2ZZ in the Celica GTS foreign markets.

Scuffers

14,281 posts

160 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Herman Toothrot said:
Scuffers said:
in short, yes.
What about a Celica GTS Apexi Power FC? Should I'd have thought be plug in, no wiring alterations and simply get mapped?


I'm deliberating over one for my 2ZZ swap MR2. Only £700 from Nengun plus calibration if you can't or don't want to do it yourself. Not the most powerful standalone ECU but it's simple and designed to be plug and play for a certain engine. 2ZZ in the Celica GTS foreign markets.
the Lotus wiring installation is nothing like the Toyota one, different ECU, different car looms, different engine looms, etc etc etc.

so, in short, no it;s not a plug-play solution (and I am not sure it would even work if you hard-wired it)

Herman Toothrot

5,745 posts

84 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Ok surprised Lotus didn't just lift the Toyota engine loom and ECU.

Exige77

1,586 posts

77 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
There have been 1000's and 1000's of posts about the Lotus ECU.

If it was this easy we all would have done it.

Eliseparts are working on a new fully progamable ECU.

Hope it works.

Ex77

Phil-CH

1,132 posts

150 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Frimley111R said:
Long thread but in answer to the OP: The Katana will always be the best bet. Why? Because its been tested on more cars than any other by a long way. Whatever you do will cost thousands so stick with as known and as proven a conversion as you possibly can.

The only exception to this is the Lotus kit but you don't get that much more power, the Katana, for a bit more cash puts you where you want to be.

There are new things coming out all the time but why make yourself the gineau pig?
Don't really want to nitpick, but I'd be interested to hear why the Katana has the most kits outthere. Is this just word of mouth or is there substance to this? Because they certainly weren't the first ones out with a S/C kit.

And pretty much regardless what you want to do with the car, I wouldn't want to run it without any form of charge-cooler. That applies to any S/C kit, Katana included.
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Scuffers

14,281 posts

160 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
Frimley111R said:
Long thread but in answer to the OP: The Katana will always be the best bet. Why? Because its been tested on more cars than any other by a long way. Whatever you do will cost thousands so stick with as known and as proven a conversion as you possibly can.

The only exception to this is the Lotus kit but you don't get that much more power, the Katana, for a bit more cash puts you where you want to be.

There are new things coming out all the time but why make yourself the gineau pig?
Don't really want to nitpick, but I'd be interested to hear why the Katana has the most kits outthere. Is this just word of mouth or is there substance to this? Because they certainly weren't the first ones out with a S/C kit.

And pretty much regardless what you want to do with the car, I wouldn't want to run it without any form of charge-cooler. That applies to any S/C kit, Katana included.
I would agree that's a massive assumption from all perspectives....

Frimley111R

5,759 posts

120 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
Frimley111R said:
Long thread but in answer to the OP: The Katana will always be the best bet. Why? Because its been tested on more cars than any other by a long way. Whatever you do will cost thousands so stick with as known and as proven a conversion as you possibly can.

The only exception to this is the Lotus kit but you don't get that much more power, the Katana, for a bit more cash puts you where you want to be.

There are new things coming out all the time but why make yourself the gineau pig?
Don't really want to nitpick, but I'd be interested to hear why the Katana has the most kits outthere. Is this just word of mouth or is there substance to this? Because they certainly weren't the first ones out with a S/C kit.

And pretty much regardless what you want to do with the car, I wouldn't want to run it without any form of charge-cooler. That applies to any S/C kit, Katana included.
Because the guy who broke the ECU first got it to the market quickest. This was in the USA and since then (mostly in the USA) they have sold c300 according to what I have read. There are 20-30 in the Uk. The big issue has always been cracking the ECU which has been holding back competitors. There are other competitors but the US got there and got out selling it first. You don't need to be first to market if you've got the best product.

If you have the mapping right you don't need charge cooling (up to a point). There are loads of cars running without c/c. To get a Katana up to 300bhp it will need it but most only run at 240bhp. A friend is running 245 in his MX5 without issues too.

You can run a katana s/c with c/c but it adds a lot of cost.

Frimley111R

5,759 posts

120 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
I would agree that's a massive assumption from all perspectives....
My post?? I haven't made any assumptions. Its just common sense.

the ronin

730 posts

97 months

[news] 
Wednesday 17th August 2011 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
Don't really want to nitpick, but I'd be interested to hear why the Katana has the most kits outthere. Is this just word of mouth or is there substance to this? Because they certainly weren't the first ones out with a S/C kit.

And pretty much regardless what you want to do with the car, I wouldn't want to run it without any form of charge-cooler. That applies to any S/C kit, Katana included.
It is by far the most used SC kit out there I know this because I came up with it 5 years ago....biggrin
And came up with the chargecooler version 4.5 yrs. ago if you are lookin for 320 whp.. rolleyes

You can use a AEM 6060 ECU and with a harness adaptor it is plug and play.... I use it so I know, why wait for others that should have been out years ago..

Phil-CH

1,132 posts

150 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
Frimley111R said:
Because the guy who broke the ECU first got it to the market quickest. This was in the USA and since then (mostly in the USA) they have sold c300 according to what I have read. There are 20-30 in the Uk. The big issue has always been cracking the ECU which has been holding back competitors. There are other competitors but the US got there and got out selling it first. You don't need to be first to market if you've got the best product.
You were the one that made the distinction that the "one with the most kits is the best bet/best product". I was just voicing my opinion that I thought it was unlikely that they did have the most kits, based on the fact that they weren't the first. Just for your information and to play devils advocat: Komo-Tec sells their kits in the UK, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Japan. Very big markets. And they're not the only ones with a wide network.

And to nitpick further: The cracking issues of the ECU was foremost relevant to MY06 cars and beyond (drive-by-wire cars) only, not MY04/MY05 (which have a different ECU) and in neither cases, was he (CharlieX) the first or the only one to do it. Not by a long shot.

I'd also argue that the 'best-kit' pretty much depends on what you intend to do with the car and how big your budget is. Effectively, you are comparing a kit primarely sold without a charge-cooler with a kit (turbo-drive in this case) that does. In that sense, I'm not really sure how you would want to argue in one kits favour, without a substantial argument, other than your assumption that the katana was the first one with a cracked ECU and them having the most kits - both which are wrong or not really telling.

Then, there is the point that the car of the OP is a sportsracer, which I believe is a year 2005 model and none (or few) of the aftermarket kits ever had a problem with that ECU.

Frimley111R said:
If you have the mapping right you don't need charge cooling (up to a point). There are loads of cars running without c/c. To get a Katana up to 300bhp it will need it but most only run at 240bhp. A friend is running 245 in his MX5 without issues too.
What your friend is running in a MX5 isn't really relevant. Different car, different engine, different setup - I'm not really sure why an Elise owner should care.

And if you mean by mapping right, running the car a bit rich... well... Thanks but no thanks. Especially not when running on the track.
And as a side note: Just look at the in-let temperatures of the Exige-S (220S) with a non-working/highly inefficient air-intercooler (there's a link to it in the other thread). Would be interesting to know what the figures for Elise SC are with the smaller Eaton charger...

Edited by Phil-CH on Thursday 18th August 09:06

The Pits

Original Poster:

4,123 posts

126 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
As it happens the Sportsracer is drive by wire and introduced the 2006 model year upgrades.

No crime in not knowing that though!

Many thanks for the informed opinions. However they aggregate into a compelling argument for the Factory supercharger kit, I saw now on offer somewhere for £1000 off.

Still can't decide whether to go for it or not as I'm one of the few that loves the n/a engines power delivery! For me the more linear delivery of all but the 260 spec engine feel a little flat. Effective but a bit lacking the lunacy of the n/a car's manic lunge to the cutout.

Frimley111R

5,759 posts

120 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
Phil-CH said:
Frimley111R said:
Because the guy who broke the ECU first got it to the market quickest. This was in the USA and since then (mostly in the USA) they have sold c300 according to what I have read. There are 20-30 in the Uk. The big issue has always been cracking the ECU which has been holding back competitors. There are other competitors but the US got there and got out selling it first. You don't need to be first to market if you've got the best product.
You were the one that made the distinction that the "one with the most kits is the best bet/best product". I was just voicing my opinion that I thought it was unlikely that they did have the most kits, based on the fact that they weren't the first. Just for your information and to play devils advocat: Komo-Tec sells their kits in the UK, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Japan. Very big markets. And they're not the only ones with a wide network.

And to nitpick further: The cracking issues of the ECU was foremost relevant to MY06 cars and beyond (drive-by-wire cars) only, not MY04/MY05 (which have a different ECU) and in neither cases, was he (CharlieX) the first or the only one to do it. Not by a long shot.

I'd also argue that the 'best-kit' pretty much depends on what you intend to do with the car and how big your budget is. Effectively, you are comparing a kit primarely sold without a charge-cooler with a kit (turbo-drive in this case) that does. In that sense, I'm not really sure how you would want to argue in one kits favour, without a substantial argument, other than your assumption that the katana was the first one with a cracked ECU and them having the most kits - both which are wrong or not really telling.

Then, there is the point that the car of the OP is a sportsracer, which I believe is a year 2005 model and none (or few) of the aftermarket kits ever had a problem with that ECU.

Frimley111R said:
If you have the mapping right you don't need charge cooling (up to a point). There are loads of cars running without c/c. To get a Katana up to 300bhp it will need it but most only run at 240bhp. A friend is running 245 in his MX5 without issues too.
What your friend is running in a MX5 isn't really relevant. Different car, different engine, different setup - I'm not really sure why an Elise owner should care.

And if you mean by mapping right, running the car a bit rich... well... Thanks but no thanks. Especially not when running on the track.
And as a side note: Just look at the in-let temperatures of the Exige-S (220S) with a non-working/highly inefficient air-intercooler (there's a link to it in the other thread). Would be interesting to know what the figures for Elise SC are with the smaller Eaton charger...

Edited by Phil-CH on Thursday 18th August 09:06
Blimey, get you! Where did I say 'best kit'?

I said best BET menaing that the katana kit has sold more than any others therefore is the most proven and is therefore the least risky option. Get it?!

I didn't say anything about running the engine rich either. Are you reading my posts or making up what you think I said???

Scuffers

14,281 posts

160 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
As it happens the Sportsracer is drive by wire and introduced the 2006 model year upgrades.

No crime in not knowing that though!

Many thanks for the informed opinions. However they aggregate into a compelling argument for the Factory supercharger kit, I saw now on offer somewhere for £1000 off.

Still can't decide whether to go for it or not as I'm one of the few that loves the n/a engines power delivery! For me the more linear delivery of all but the 260 spec engine feel a little flat. Effective but a bit lacking the lunacy of the n/a car's manic lunge to the cutout.
seems to me your really trying to talk yourself into a 260Cup car, irrelevant of what else is about/available.

I can see hell freezing over before you actually by something that's not factory spec.

The Pits

Original Poster:

4,123 posts

126 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
was that post really worth 5 minutes of your time?

one of the reasons I have more faith in the likes of Matt Becker and co. than the likes of you scuffers is that they're too busy engineering stuff, to be giving out unwanted advice on internet forums.

Phil-CH

1,132 posts

150 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
As it happens the Sportsracer is drive by wire and introduced the 2006 model year upgrades.

No crime in not knowing that though!
Ah, indeed they are. I stand corrected!

The Pits said:
Many thanks for the informed opinions. However they aggregate into a compelling argument for the Factory supercharger kit, I saw now on offer somewhere for £1000 off.

Still can't decide whether to go for it or not as I'm one of the few that loves the n/a engines power delivery! For me the more linear delivery of all but the 260 spec engine feel a little flat. Effective but a bit lacking the lunacy of the n/a car's manic lunge to the cutout.
I guess the Lotus one is the best bet given you are most likely to receive support for it with perhaps even warranty. Given you have a SportsRacer though, I have to ask - what exactly does the official kit consist of? The Eaton M45 (the one in the Elise SC) or the M62 supercharger? If it's the latter, does it come with any intercooler or is it more or less an identical solution to what they did with the Elise SC?

BTW: I'm not sure, but I think there are no MY06 cars that have the cam switch over point at the original ~6200rpm point. I have mine there still, and as such, my car has the character of the NA car with the lunge at that point (despite having A LOT of torque already at 4000rpm). The ratios of the gearbox make it at times a bit frustrating though, so I have often wondered if I should have mine re-flashed to the 4500rpm point that would give a more smooth transition. Mine is a MY05, running a kit that probably isn't available in the UK so it doesn't matter...

Scuffers

14,281 posts

160 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
was that post really worth 5 minutes of your time?

one of the reasons I have more faith in the likes of Matt Becker and co. than the likes of you scuffers is that they're too busy engineering stuff, to be giving out unwanted advice on internet forums.
LOL

with respect, that's what he is paid for.

what I do with my time is my business, I don't have an employer looking over my shoulder.

As a side point, I was not aware Matt Becker was a powertrain engineer?



The Pits

Original Poster:

4,123 posts

126 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
Asides the factory SC kit, the big issue with *all* the after market ones is ECU related, apart from Charlie's ECU mapping (and he appears to have disappeared now?), eveybody else is either using mix-match Lotus calibrations (ie. Komotec) that are best fit as opposed to calibrated for the install, or some bodgetastic pigg-back solution.

this problem will only be 100% addressed when there is a fully featured plug-play ECU replacement (or somebody is brave enough to encure the wrath of Lotus and re-map the Lotus ECU).
A compelling argument in favour of the factory kit if ever there was one.

A tad inconsistent to now mock someone who might prefer to go that route, no?

As a side point, Lotus's powertrain engineers would be included in the 'and co' part.

Regardless, I'd still rather he had a go at my powertrain than you!

laugh

Edited by The Pits on Thursday 18th August 13:37

Scuffers

14,281 posts

160 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
A compelling argument in favour of the factory kit if ever there was one.

A tad inconsistent to now mock someone who might prefer to go that route, no?

As a side point, Lotus's powertrain engineers would be included in the 'and co' part.

Regardless, I'd still rather he had a go at my powertrain than you!
so, remind me again what the point in your starting this thread in the first place was?

also, you seem to be under the miss-guided view that I would want to do anything for you in the first place...

you have over the years demonstrated a total lack of understanding of anything said to you or any ability to manage basic reasoning.



The Pits

Original Poster:

4,123 posts

126 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
The reason for starting the post was because I was of the opinion that there might be some good aftermarket alternatives to the factory sc kit until I read your post.

Like I say, a compelling argument in favour of the factory kit.

Doubly so coming from someone with a vested interest in promoting aftermarket alternatives.

Unless the ecu issues have been properly sorted since you posted what I quoted above, the factory SC kit would appear to be the only way to avoid these issues. Given you can currently get factory kits with over £1k off I'd say it looks for all the world like the logical thing to do.

Scuffers

14,281 posts

160 months

[news] 
Thursday 18th August 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
A compelling argument in favour of the factory kit if ever there was one.

A tad inconsistent to now mock someone who might prefer to go that route, no?

As a side point, Lotus's powertrain engineers would be included in the 'and co' part.

Regardless, I'd still rather he had a go at my powertrain than you!
so your just a bit slow then? (I posted that in Feb, over 6 months ago)

And, Like I said before, your the kind of customer nobody actually wants, ie. spend years pontificating, spout's a st load of crap, then still never spends any real money!
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