Racing Green demonstrator driven
Discussion
Right, I finally managed to drive the FFF demonstrator....
First, the bad bits. I'd never driven a Tuscan before, and this car is still a work in progress, so they're still playing with stuff, and ironing out the kinks (the only one being a faulty idle meter or some-such, that cause hesitation at a junction). The car has done a huge amount of rolling road work, thrashed round TAG11, and even worse, been driven by Richard Hammond.
Cold start-up
A clean idle, easy start without any throttle. The engine is quieter than the standard S6 (I drove over in my Sag to make sure I was properly attuned to it, and give it a stern test).
First few miles to get heat in
Very smooth. Very, very smooth. The engine is far more refined and so simple to use at low revs. Still some sizeable grunt there, even not venturing about 3k. I really couldn't get over the way the engine has changed character - to put it in film contexts, the standard engine is Vinnie Jones in Lock Stock - loud, ugly, gets the job done. The FFF is Daniel Craig in James Bond - smooth, but you know it'll rip your head off.
Heat in, working through the gears
Yes, smooth, But really, really bizarrely fast. Really fast (as in left a bike for dead fast). The standard engine you know you're pushing, because you can feel and hear it, but this is stunning. A 3.4 diff, and you're still warp speed (license losing territory) far faster than you'd really expect. I'd go out on a limb and say it would be a good second and a half faster to 100 than the Sag. Strangely enough, it also subtly alters the character of the car - you can really cruise with the engine, it's a real pleasure, but you know that there is an animal at the top of the rev range, and it's so easy to get there. You'll also be glad to know that switchable traction control work very well indeed!
Conclusion
Personally I love it. I think that it is a very different animal to the TVR Power conversions, and I think both will benefit from the difference. People will like what people will like, and therefore they will have a choice to go for. But my choice has been made, and a serious shopping list is growing.... Stay tuned for what I'm going for, and what I'm going to do. So the final take away thoughts are, smooth, refined grunt (still with the pops and bangs a TVR should make), and really fecking fast.
Edit: Racing Green now offer a transferable 3 year warranty with the FFF engine. There is a chance this will be extended in the near future. Please call Racing Green for all official statements, questions and anything else.
First, the bad bits. I'd never driven a Tuscan before, and this car is still a work in progress, so they're still playing with stuff, and ironing out the kinks (the only one being a faulty idle meter or some-such, that cause hesitation at a junction). The car has done a huge amount of rolling road work, thrashed round TAG11, and even worse, been driven by Richard Hammond.
Cold start-up
A clean idle, easy start without any throttle. The engine is quieter than the standard S6 (I drove over in my Sag to make sure I was properly attuned to it, and give it a stern test).
First few miles to get heat in
Very smooth. Very, very smooth. The engine is far more refined and so simple to use at low revs. Still some sizeable grunt there, even not venturing about 3k. I really couldn't get over the way the engine has changed character - to put it in film contexts, the standard engine is Vinnie Jones in Lock Stock - loud, ugly, gets the job done. The FFF is Daniel Craig in James Bond - smooth, but you know it'll rip your head off.
Heat in, working through the gears
Yes, smooth, But really, really bizarrely fast. Really fast (as in left a bike for dead fast). The standard engine you know you're pushing, because you can feel and hear it, but this is stunning. A 3.4 diff, and you're still warp speed (license losing territory) far faster than you'd really expect. I'd go out on a limb and say it would be a good second and a half faster to 100 than the Sag. Strangely enough, it also subtly alters the character of the car - you can really cruise with the engine, it's a real pleasure, but you know that there is an animal at the top of the rev range, and it's so easy to get there. You'll also be glad to know that switchable traction control work very well indeed!
Conclusion
Personally I love it. I think that it is a very different animal to the TVR Power conversions, and I think both will benefit from the difference. People will like what people will like, and therefore they will have a choice to go for. But my choice has been made, and a serious shopping list is growing.... Stay tuned for what I'm going for, and what I'm going to do. So the final take away thoughts are, smooth, refined grunt (still with the pops and bangs a TVR should make), and really fecking fast.
Edit: Racing Green now offer a transferable 3 year warranty with the FFF engine. There is a chance this will be extended in the near future. Please call Racing Green for all official statements, questions and anything else.
Edited by Don1 on Thursday 5th January 19:49
Don1 said:
Yes, test car has Syvecs, Quaife diff and the FFF. As for prices, I'm sure they'd be happy to have a chat about it! But let's just say that it all depends what you put on it...
I want to put a 100,000 mile warranty on it. Will they do that? Will they f
k! Therefore, I know where my hard earned is going.Nice write up but opinion is obviously highly subjective. I want to see clear pricing, clear warranty details and proven reliability and power improvements - in a word transparency. Nothing less would get me interested, particularly as there are others that are ticking some or all of those those boxes already.
Not that I'm any way near to RG's mouth piece, but I honestly believe that things will come in time. As for the racing part of RG, then let's see what happens.
I know this is a direct competitor to Power, but how long have Power been knocking out the 4.3/4.5 conversions? Three years at a guess? Who says that RG won't offer warrenties when they finally announce everything? They just about have the heads where they want them, the variable cam timing and exhausts are next on their list....
People are very quick to put something down, especially when their colours are aligned else-where. Personally I'm full of admiration for what Power/Str8-Six have done, and what they offer, but I have chosen to go down a different path.
I know this is a direct competitor to Power, but how long have Power been knocking out the 4.3/4.5 conversions? Three years at a guess? Who says that RG won't offer warrenties when they finally announce everything? They just about have the heads where they want them, the variable cam timing and exhausts are next on their list....
People are very quick to put something down, especially when their colours are aligned else-where. Personally I'm full of admiration for what Power/Str8-Six have done, and what they offer, but I have chosen to go down a different path.
Would have to say that for me and probably a lot of people its not a case of nailing your colours to the mast its about the supplier whoever they be having the confidence to back their product and at the moment Dom seems to be the only one who is prepared to do that.
The competition between Power, RG and Str8six is healthy and good for the future of our chosen cars but I for one would like to have a solid guarantee when the time comes to have to spend my hard earned on a rebuild/ upgrade.
The competition between Power, RG and Str8six is healthy and good for the future of our chosen cars but I for one would like to have a solid guarantee when the time comes to have to spend my hard earned on a rebuild/ upgrade.
I'm certainly not putting down what RG have done or what they are offering and I have no allegiance whatsoever to Power or Str8Six regarding their rebuild options as I don't have first hand experience. I can recommend Str8Six & Taylor TVR for servicing as I do have first hand experience of their work.
Competition between the main rebuild / upgrade protagonists can only be a good thing for us punters, but fact is RG are not competing on a level footing at the moment - much more is known about what Power and Str8Six are offering. RG just need to be more open and transparent.
A lot of column inches in Sprint were given over to advertising RG's FFF gen 2 upgrade but few details seem to have come out since - particularly the details that matter most to potential customers. On another thread I seem to recall reading about delays due to a factory fire ? and that came from one of their customers and not from RG themselves.
In my experience, there is normally a reason why people are not transparent in business and it's not usually a good one.
Competition between the main rebuild / upgrade protagonists can only be a good thing for us punters, but fact is RG are not competing on a level footing at the moment - much more is known about what Power and Str8Six are offering. RG just need to be more open and transparent.
A lot of column inches in Sprint were given over to advertising RG's FFF gen 2 upgrade but few details seem to have come out since - particularly the details that matter most to potential customers. On another thread I seem to recall reading about delays due to a factory fire ? and that came from one of their customers and not from RG themselves.
In my experience, there is normally a reason why people are not transparent in business and it's not usually a good one.
I can see what you're saying, but there are a few things that haven't fallen RG's way... If you talk to them, they are very transparent about things, but they just don't have an on-line presence (a company policy).
I may be the only person on here openly saying what I'm doing, but my car will be in the third set of castings they are doing, so there are plenty in front of me.
As with all of this, I'm just trying to give a balanced view across the whole spectrum. I was seriously blown away by the engine, and we'll see what happens down the road (if you'll pardon the pun).
I may be the only person on here openly saying what I'm doing, but my car will be in the third set of castings they are doing, so there are plenty in front of me.
As with all of this, I'm just trying to give a balanced view across the whole spectrum. I was seriously blown away by the engine, and we'll see what happens down the road (if you'll pardon the pun).
Laser Sag said:
Would have to say that for me and probably a lot of people its not a case of nailing your colours to the mast its about the supplier whoever they be having the confidence to back their product and at the moment Dom seems to be the only one who is prepared to do that.
The competition between Power, RG and Str8six is healthy and good for the future of our chosen cars but I for one would like to have a solid guarantee when the time comes to have to spend my hard earned on a rebuild/ upgrade.
Ahem, I've been backing RG for years, and I have never hidden the fact that there are things that went wrong.The competition between Power, RG and Str8six is healthy and good for the future of our chosen cars but I for one would like to have a solid guarantee when the time comes to have to spend my hard earned on a rebuild/ upgrade.
I even got a lot of slagging here from certain people that my car is "always in the garage" , but I didn't give up on RG, because I know how much work they've put into their conversion. If not for the unfortunate circumstances with the fire in the industrial zone of one of their suppliers, the FFF2 head would have been ready a few months earlier.
As for the FFF engine, yes, true, there has not been a lot of communication about it, and there aren't as many around yet as people going for TVR Powers/Str8 Six rebuild, but those who do have them will tell you all the same: it is a totally different engine.
Give us (and I say us because I think the other persons waiting for theirs will feel the same way too) a few weeks, and we'll be able to show you, as customers, not as sales representative/company owner the products that have been constantly developed over the past years.
s5tvr said:
I'm certainly not putting down what RG have done or what they are offering and I have no allegiance whatsoever to Power or Str8Six regarding their rebuild options as I don't have first hand experience. I can recommend Str8Six & Taylor TVR for servicing as I do have first hand experience of their work.
Competition between the main rebuild / upgrade protagonists can only be a good thing for us punters, but fact is RG are not competing on a level footing at the moment - much more is known about what Power and Str8Six are offering. RG just need to be more open and transparent.
A lot of column inches in Sprint were given over to advertising RG's FFF gen 2 upgrade but few details seem to have come out since - particularly the details that matter most to potential customers. On another thread I seem to recall reading about delays due to a factory fire ? and that came from one of their customers and not from RG themselves.
In my experience, there is normally a reason why people are not transparent in business and it's not usually a good one.
LIke I said above, give RG and us (customers) a few more weeks time, and you'll be hearing a lot about the new FFF2 head and variable valve timings.Competition between the main rebuild / upgrade protagonists can only be a good thing for us punters, but fact is RG are not competing on a level footing at the moment - much more is known about what Power and Str8Six are offering. RG just need to be more open and transparent.
A lot of column inches in Sprint were given over to advertising RG's FFF gen 2 upgrade but few details seem to have come out since - particularly the details that matter most to potential customers. On another thread I seem to recall reading about delays due to a factory fire ? and that came from one of their customers and not from RG themselves.
In my experience, there is normally a reason why people are not transparent in business and it's not usually a good one.
True, we have told them that they need to be more open about their products, and we are pushing them to do so, but you can't say they're not open. The FFF2 head was presented at TAG 2, it was there on display for everyone to see. Even the latest development, the variable valves were on display, while they were actually just about developing the first batches of mechanism. Sure, they could have hired some musicians to sound the horns, hired a plane with a banner to say "make sure to look at our FFF2 head on our not so small stand smack in the middle of TAG2", or blown up some of the buildings there to get people's attention, but they were there only a few weeks after they first started development on the valve mechanism. How more open/transparent do you want them to be?
And yes, a few weeks ago Lee did tell about the fire, those 'in the know' were already aware what happened and what are the true reasons for RG being so quiet on here (I seem to recall that a certain Dom Trickett stopped posting here a while ago too, due to getting too much slack). Things they absolutely had no control over, their supplier had to start from scratch again and RG focused on getting him up and running again, which I thought is a very fair thing to do for them. Machines and the likes were destroyed in the fire, and had to be ordered again. Setback, but on the other hand, respect to the supplier for getting the premises, machines and his business up and running again within 4 months.
Pascal
Yes I for one have joked about the amount of time your car has been off the road but the point here is not that things take a long while it is that RG dont seem to be confident of their product or if they are then why no decent warranty.
The upgrades being offered seem to vary greatly in what they will offer, super smooth or loads of torque and people will buy what suits their driving style and pocket but as I said earlier for me as and when that spend occurs the availability of a long term waranty would have a large bearing on the route taken.
Personally there is no slagging off of RG as I have no experience of them so am in no position to do so, Dom has looked after my cars for many years and has always done so very well and as such with the 5 year warranty he is already two nil up in my book at the moment.
Yes I for one have joked about the amount of time your car has been off the road but the point here is not that things take a long while it is that RG dont seem to be confident of their product or if they are then why no decent warranty.
The upgrades being offered seem to vary greatly in what they will offer, super smooth or loads of torque and people will buy what suits their driving style and pocket but as I said earlier for me as and when that spend occurs the availability of a long term waranty would have a large bearing on the route taken.
Personally there is no slagging off of RG as I have no experience of them so am in no position to do so, Dom has looked after my cars for many years and has always done so very well and as such with the 5 year warranty he is already two nil up in my book at the moment.
Another great write up Don you really should make a career out of it 
I can see why people are wary of the RG FFF if indeed they are not advertising a warranty, and I can understand a certain partisan loyalty towards Power from those who've had engine work done there and been pleased with the results, but what baffles me is the instant need to almost vilify the opposition for not doing this or that exactly like their favoured supplier. It's getting like an old firm derby in Glasgow where everything the opposition do is wrong missing out on the fact their's a great game of football going on!
It's been said many times before and by the op here, if you don't like it fine because you have a choice, and thank God we have a choice now that more than one company has put their time and money into a credable alternative.
Anyway I'm off up to Snetterton to hopefully watch the Power Sagaris humiliate the prancing ponies, Porsches et al, why? because I support TVR.
I can see why people are wary of the RG FFF if indeed they are not advertising a warranty, and I can understand a certain partisan loyalty towards Power from those who've had engine work done there and been pleased with the results, but what baffles me is the instant need to almost vilify the opposition for not doing this or that exactly like their favoured supplier. It's getting like an old firm derby in Glasgow where everything the opposition do is wrong missing out on the fact their's a great game of football going on!
It's been said many times before and by the op here, if you don't like it fine because you have a choice, and thank God we have a choice now that more than one company has put their time and money into a credable alternative.
Anyway I'm off up to Snetterton to hopefully watch the Power Sagaris humiliate the prancing ponies, Porsches et al, why? because I support TVR.
Laser Sag said:
Pascal
... and as such with the 5 year warranty he is already two nil up in my book at the moment.
When did Dom offer this five year warranty? Was it this year? Or late last year? And how long has he been offering the conversion? A lot longer?... and as such with the 5 year warranty he is already two nil up in my book at the moment.
FFS, the RG one is still in development! 'Oh, but it doesn't have a five year warranty', I hear you say. Neither did the Power conversion when it came out.
Give it time. Those of us who talk to RG, have a relationship with them are happy with what they tell us, and then prove. It is also the same with Power, Str-8 Six (I have spoken with Dom and Jason on the phone, and they have both offered advice and support just for the fact that I'm a TVR owner on the other end of the phone - top people, and Jason has been taking my money very happily - and I love the parts he sends me in return!).
All I'm saying is that there are different courses for different horses, I was blown away by the FFF, it suits my driving style better than the 4.5, and I know others are happy with it.
2-0? I think the old firm derby will be going into extra time with this....
Laser Sag said:
Pascal
Yes I for one have joked about the amount of time your car has been off the road but the point here is not that things take a long while it is that RG dont seem to be confident of their product or if they are then why no decent warranty.
The upgrades being offered seem to vary greatly in what they will offer, super smooth or loads of torque and people will buy what suits their driving style and pocket but as I said earlier for me as and when that spend occurs the availability of a long term waranty would have a large bearing on the route taken.
Personally there is no slagging off of RG as I have no experience of them so am in no position to do so, Dom has looked after my cars for many years and has always done so very well and as such with the 5 year warranty he is already two nil up in my book at the moment.
RG never made a secret of it that they offered a 3yr, and as far as I know unlimited mileage warranty, with the FFF head from the start. AFAIK it was shortly after that, that TVR Power started to give the 5yr warranty, Dom started out with a 3yr warranty on his products too.Yes I for one have joked about the amount of time your car has been off the road but the point here is not that things take a long while it is that RG dont seem to be confident of their product or if they are then why no decent warranty.
The upgrades being offered seem to vary greatly in what they will offer, super smooth or loads of torque and people will buy what suits their driving style and pocket but as I said earlier for me as and when that spend occurs the availability of a long term waranty would have a large bearing on the route taken.
Personally there is no slagging off of RG as I have no experience of them so am in no position to do so, Dom has looked after my cars for many years and has always done so very well and as such with the 5 year warranty he is already two nil up in my book at the moment.
No mention of any warranty 3 years or otherwise on their website, although with the time you have spent dealing with them I am sure you are correct Pascal. Once they match Powers 5 year unlimited that will make the decision harder and one made more on the customers desire for a type of engine characteristic.
all in all considering our marque of choice dissapeared several years ago it is good that we have more options now, FFF, Powers,LS conversions all having benefits aimed at different driving styles/ choices.
Any idea when yours will be on the road again Pascal, have to say you have much more patience than me I prefer the idea of less power but the ability to use my car when I want to.
all in all considering our marque of choice dissapeared several years ago it is good that we have more options now, FFF, Powers,LS conversions all having benefits aimed at different driving styles/ choices.
Any idea when yours will be on the road again Pascal, have to say you have much more patience than me I prefer the idea of less power but the ability to use my car when I want to.
-Racing Green has had 2 times problems with subsuppliers
-no final provements of "bulletproff" up to now
-Prices of upgrades/rebults not offical/unknown
-only a few FFF/upgraded engines/rebuilts offical known
I am now in the situation for a rebuilt/upgrade
so i have taken the company with best reputation, most engines done
no problems with subsuppliers, most done in own workshop
with good warranty.
so i took TVR POWER------------
This will not say that RG is not building a bad engine or will not
give a good warranty, but the others have shown many times already that their
upgrades and rebuilts are all (as i know) done to fully satisfaction of
their owners.
and this is most important for me-----------
And i want the speed six rumble, i want to hear the followers
otherwise i could drive a car with a BMW M engine also!
Speed six and finger followers incl this noise arrangement are part of the character of this
TVRs.
So also no agreement for a LS3 engine from my side
(This engine is really fantastic, but a part of a Corvette)
Maybe i am wrong or other will not agree, but this
what i am thinking.
Uwe
-no final provements of "bulletproff" up to now
-Prices of upgrades/rebults not offical/unknown
-only a few FFF/upgraded engines/rebuilts offical known
I am now in the situation for a rebuilt/upgrade
so i have taken the company with best reputation, most engines done
no problems with subsuppliers, most done in own workshop
with good warranty.
so i took TVR POWER------------
This will not say that RG is not building a bad engine or will not
give a good warranty, but the others have shown many times already that their
upgrades and rebuilts are all (as i know) done to fully satisfaction of
their owners.
and this is most important for me-----------
And i want the speed six rumble, i want to hear the followers
otherwise i could drive a car with a BMW M engine also!
Speed six and finger followers incl this noise arrangement are part of the character of this
TVRs.
So also no agreement for a LS3 engine from my side
(This engine is really fantastic, but a part of a Corvette)
Maybe i am wrong or other will not agree, but this
what i am thinking.
Uwe
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