The results are in: S6 reliability
Discussion
daftlad said:
JSG,
For ammusment what you've put together is fun. Its not representative, and if you've sat in many a STATS lecture, you'll know why.
Maybe I should start a thread along the lines of
"i wonder what % has been wiped of the value of my car by inaccurate distorted polls being run on a website"
Taken out of context, and many stats are, this has all the potential to turn into a quite damaging piece of work.
It's representative of certain things, not of others. It doesn't matter if the statistics of pre 2002 cars are actually 10% or 100%. Even if the accuracy of the survey is only 25% or so (unlikely in my opinion), it's double figure percentages, and hundreds of actual failures - whatever way you look at it or bias you decide upon. And that's not a cost that the owner should have to bear whilst being mocked with cries of "T.A.D.T.S.".
It's as good a sample as has been done thus far, that I know of. May it cause damage to residuals? Absolutely. Maybe those with unbuilt 2000 spec engines with 1500 miles on them out there will lose a grand or two. Maybe those with 2004 spec engines will make a grand. It doesn't matter - the damage/repair will have to be done at sometime, by someone. There's been years of idle speculation on this site that's done untold damage.
Maybe by tomorrow this thread'll have slipped down into obscurity. Maybe someone'll decide to get a group of people together and claim for damages. No matter how small the step forwards, I personally see this as progress from the "you're an isolated incident", "no, you're just yet to have it happen" arguments that fill the S6 forums.
The only blame for anything in this lies at TVR's door, I'm afraid... if there'd been a recall 2 years ago, these threads would've died a death a long, LONG time ago. As it is, this is causing a great deal of interest because there's been a breakdown in the relationship and communication between TVR/dealers/owners - a triangle that needs to have a level of trust. Until I go on Watchdog saying that noone should buy a TVR because they all blow up and you'll be funding Soviet terrorism, please don't blame me for trying to do the only things I can to break the current deadlock.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Wednesday 8th September 14:55
daftlad said:
Point well made, and i guess I agree with one notable exception - TVR aren't the only peolpe here to balme. 
Think owners and mechanical sympathy.
Agree - that is, no doubt, a consideration. And a point that dealers should probably be much more vocal about to potential owners. In all the years of the family's garage, noone ever warned a customer about not thrashing a Honda/Toyota/whatever engine from cold, though, with no unhappy clientelle... And we're not just talking 21st century engines here.
most Honda VTECs are rev limited anyway until the oil is warm etc...whats wrong with TVR limiting the revs in the ECU to 3K revs until the oil is up to 60deg or so, if you think thats the issue.
I cant believe that just because say 50% of owners havent had rebuilds that the other 50% that have must keep quiet about it in order to protect the resale value ! LOL
I still bought a car, in full knowledge that of 8 friends/colleagues/associates that I know, that either own a TVR now or have owned in the last 5 years (Cerbs, Tuscans, Tam's, T350) have all had engine problems of one form or another - I went into it armed with that knowledge....just imagine how unhappy I would be if I wasnt expecting the car to be away for 3 months for a rebuild, and that Id bought it beleiving that 'everythings fixed now' 'there are no problems anymore' 'it runs like a Toyota' etc
but as with anything you can only go on personal experience - if someone comes to buy your car you can quote truthfully 'ive done 15K miles in it with no issues' or 'its had a rebuild, I beleive it to be fixed now'
cant really see what the big deal is myself - if you go on any car forum you will find loads of problem threads no matter what the manufacturer - thats why people come here - generally looking for answers to problems IMO
I cant believe that just because say 50% of owners havent had rebuilds that the other 50% that have must keep quiet about it in order to protect the resale value !
LOL I still bought a car, in full knowledge that of 8 friends/colleagues/associates that I know, that either own a TVR now or have owned in the last 5 years (Cerbs, Tuscans, Tam's, T350) have all had engine problems of one form or another - I went into it armed with that knowledge....just imagine how unhappy I would be if I wasnt expecting the car to be away for 3 months for a rebuild, and that Id bought it beleiving that 'everythings fixed now' 'there are no problems anymore' 'it runs like a Toyota'
etc but as with anything you can only go on personal experience - if someone comes to buy your car you can quote truthfully 'ive done 15K miles in it with no issues' or 'its had a rebuild, I beleive it to be fixed now'
cant really see what the big deal is myself - if you go on any car forum you will find loads of problem threads no matter what the manufacturer - thats why people come here - generally looking for answers to problems IMO
Top Stats James !
Mine is due for it's 24k service (15K miles) next month.
It had a rebuilt last july. It had a timing bearing done on january. It has full tvr service history.
It's now using 1.5 litres of oil per 500 miles.
If it ain't the shims.... this is the graph thats gonna make tvr pay to fix it.
Absolutely atrocious failure rate. The point is, yes other manufacturerers could have a similar failure rate... we could be saying..
"Don't buy a TT.. 30% of them have rolled at high speed killing the drivers"
we're not because REAL car manufacturers sort this sort of stuff out FAST with recalls. And if it's not safety affecting, they do it as part of the next service.. no begging for it to tvr/power...no 'prove you don't drive like a spanner and warm the car up blablabla'. It's just done. No big deal.
Until tvr gets their finger out their arse about stuff like this they will always be the mickey mouse of car companies.
I cannot see how armed with these statistics, anyone could not get tvr to rightfully pay for their rebuild through small claims court... surely ! But I really really don't see why anyone should need to do that. It's very very sad. Even the name this has been given... "goodwill".. "goodwill has been withdrawn"....
goodwill my arse. tvr should be begging ME to let them fix my car, not the other way around.
I remember when I had my MR2 years ago, Toyota calling me serveral times to make sure I come in for a service as several things needed to be replaced, etc.. and even if I didn't plan to get the service with them, would I please still drop the car off so we can do the recall/upgrade work for free, etc.
stu
Mine is due for it's 24k service (15K miles) next month.
It had a rebuilt last july. It had a timing bearing done on january. It has full tvr service history.
It's now using 1.5 litres of oil per 500 miles.
If it ain't the shims.... this is the graph thats gonna make tvr pay to fix it.
Absolutely atrocious failure rate. The point is, yes other manufacturerers could have a similar failure rate... we could be saying..
"Don't buy a TT.. 30% of them have rolled at high speed killing the drivers"
we're not because REAL car manufacturers sort this sort of stuff out FAST with recalls. And if it's not safety affecting, they do it as part of the next service.. no begging for it to tvr/power...no 'prove you don't drive like a spanner and warm the car up blablabla'. It's just done. No big deal.
Until tvr gets their finger out their arse about stuff like this they will always be the mickey mouse of car companies.
I cannot see how armed with these statistics, anyone could not get tvr to rightfully pay for their rebuild through small claims court... surely ! But I really really don't see why anyone should need to do that. It's very very sad. Even the name this has been given... "goodwill".. "goodwill has been withdrawn"....
goodwill my arse. tvr should be begging ME to let them fix my car, not the other way around.
I remember when I had my MR2 years ago, Toyota calling me serveral times to make sure I come in for a service as several things needed to be replaced, etc.. and even if I didn't plan to get the service with them, would I please still drop the car off so we can do the recall/upgrade work for free, etc.
stu
J_S_G said:
Point well made, and i guess I agree with one notable exception - TVR aren't the only peolpe here to balme.
Think owners and mechanical sympathy.
Agree - that is, no doubt, a consideration. And a point that dealers should probably be much more vocal about to potential owners. In all the years of the family's garage, noone ever warned a customer about not thrashing a Honda/Toyota/whatever engine from cold, though, with no unhappy clientelle... And we're not just talking 21st century engines here.
I for one get brassed off by people saying owners not treating the car right are to blame. I treated both my Tuscans with total mechanical sympathy at all times, as I have with all my cars. Not one of the other three TVR's I've owned let me down nor have any other car I've owned.
I'm sure I'm not alone either, sure there are some who'll mistreat their car but look at the stats, there surely are that many negligent owners out there.
Cheers
DC
Nice work James - very interesting results.
Interesting to see that since July 2002 it looks like all failures have been below 12000 miles, and quite a few cars have done a lot more miles than that with no problems. Also that there haven't been any failures reported for cars bought after June 2003, so there is some reason for optimism I think.
As for the point some have made about the driver's mechanical sympathy, I don't think this is valid, as enough failures have occured to cars that are treated well to rule this out.
It would be good to know the exact cause of these failures though - is it an inherent design flaw, poor assembly or simply sub-standard materials being used?
Interesting to see that since July 2002 it looks like all failures have been below 12000 miles, and quite a few cars have done a lot more miles than that with no problems. Also that there haven't been any failures reported for cars bought after June 2003, so there is some reason for optimism I think.
As for the point some have made about the driver's mechanical sympathy, I don't think this is valid, as enough failures have occured to cars that are treated well to rule this out.
It would be good to know the exact cause of these failures though - is it an inherent design flaw, poor assembly or simply sub-standard materials being used?
Los Angeles said:
I don't wish to fan the flame of debate, but what do PH'ers say to TVR folk I've confronted (sorry, no names) who answer that "many" failures are due to owners not putting oil in their engine, or ragging it on track excursions? Or do JSG's findings show engines fail of themselves with normal not abnormal use?
>> Edited by Los Angeles on Wednesday 8th September 19:02
My only worry is if you buy secondhand, you don't know how the previous owner(s) or even the dealers treated the engine warm up routine. I''m past the 12K with my 01 Tusc RR with no rebuild, so worring times.
Alan
Good work JSG, at least we have some facts.
I have said before that I don't mind spending/saving money for upgrades to my car, but I do mind having the spectre of having to put aside many thousands of pounds if the worst happens. This should not be the case, if the engines have flaws, and based on the evidence here, some do, why the hell should I, or anyone have to pay to put it right? Not only that, even if a warranty company or the factory paid the bill, it's still bad enough having to wait months for the car to be seen to! This, surely cannot be right, especially when some numpty can sue a company for a puddle on the floor, why can't we now club together and demand action?
Some of these engines in the cars evidentelly have not been sold fit for purpose, I thought we were protected against things like this, or am I being naieve??
Some of these engines in the cars evidentelly have not been sold fit for purpose, I thought we were protected against things like this, or am I being naieve??
agreed - ours is a 4.0 2001 car - had done 10K miles with 2 previous owners, 1st owner was a lady who used it to drive around town - did 1K miles per year in the 1st 2 years. 2nd owner was an enthusiast, he limited the revs down at 6500, and pampered the car (so we were told) anyway...3K miles and 3 weeks into ownership the followers went...that was in July...havnt seen it since 
...what other car can you buy from a dealer, with warranty for 30 odd grand, then have the engine fail after 3 weeks...and then be expected not to see it for the rest of summer (3 months)...and thats 'normal' service.
Due to fact that we do a lot of miles in it I was checking the oil every other day - consumption wasnt excessive - 1L per 1K miles. Warm up routine the same as my 230bhp Elise - no going over 3K revs until theres at least 60-70 degs on the oil temp....maybe it will survive longer than 13K miles next time
...what other car can you buy from a dealer, with warranty for 30 odd grand, then have the engine fail after 3 weeks...and then be expected not to see it for the rest of summer (3 months)...and thats 'normal' service. Due to fact that we do a lot of miles in it I was checking the oil every other day - consumption wasnt excessive - 1L per 1K miles. Warm up routine the same as my 230bhp Elise - no going over 3K revs until theres at least 60-70 degs on the oil temp....maybe it will survive longer than 13K miles next time
Interesting reading!!
Can someone please put a link to this thread from the TOG? Would be nice to get more cars included in the figures for better accuracy.
Scary
Thanks J_S_G for trying to find out exactly what everyone was having a go at me for asking previously. On the plus side, that 30k car is a new mileage record, before I had heard of no better than 24k
Can someone please put a link to this thread from the TOG? Would be nice to get more cars included in the figures for better accuracy.
Scary
Thanks J_S_G for trying to find out exactly what everyone was having a go at me for asking previously. On the plus side, that 30k car is a new mileage record, before I had heard of no better than 24k
BCA said:
Thanks J_S_G for trying to find out exactly what everyone was having a go at me for asking previously. On the plus side, that 30k car is a new mileage record, before I had heard of no better than 24k
No probs. But, unfortunately, none on the graph has done 30k before a problem occured. That car is bandit's...
bandit said:
1999 Speed Six Cerbera.
14,000 miles - finger followers
23,000 miles - valve guides/seals - lost compression
30,000 miles - head gasket
So, by 30,000 it was having its fourth engine dropped in.
I'll do another graph when I get a chance (been a bit busy tonight) that subtracts these mileages, so would put these at rebulds of 14, 9, and 7 respectively.
Looks like mty4000 holds the record at the moment with 27,000. What a record. [shakes head and wonders if this really is the 21st century]
Edited for shocking grammar, etc.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Thursday 9th September 00:37
Ah, k. Still a new record at 27k wooo Unacceptable.
edited to add: Im sure theres a PH'er out there (Graham something?) with seven or eight rebuilds that need to be added to the chart too, unless hes come forward and I have missed it. That scared me, BIG TIME!!!
>> Edited by BCA on Thursday 9th September 00:36
Unacceptable. edited to add: Im sure theres a PH'er out there (Graham something?) with seven or eight rebuilds that need to be added to the chart too, unless hes come forward and I have missed it. That scared me, BIG TIME!!!
>> Edited by BCA on Thursday 9th September 00:36
BCA said:
edited to add: Im sure theres a PH'er out there (Graham something?) with seven or eight rebuilds that need to be added to the chart too, unless hes come forward and I have missed it. That scared me, BIG TIME!!!
Yeah, I definitely remember there being someone on here with 5+ rebuilds. Patience of a saint. Car of the devil.
BCA said:
Im sure theres a PH'er out there (Graham something?) with seven or eight rebuilds that need to be added to the chart too...
I know that there are several rebuilt engines (and some engines with several rebuilds 
) that are not in the survey. However, we have to respect the fact that not everyone will want to include such specific details of their cars on a public forum - especially if they have been (or are hoping to be) recipients of whatever "goodwill" TVR are prepared to give.
ehasler said:
As for the point some have made about the driver's mechanical sympathy, I don't think this is valid, as enough failures have occured to cars that are treated well to rule this out.
Agreed, that is a complete bag of wank, if ever there was a car that would be treated correctly it's a TVR, every fecker and his dog will mention reliability so no one buys these things without some anticipation of being mechanically sympathetic.
Hell, I've spoken to people who don't know what a TVR looks like or what a Tuscan is and they will say "Ah TVR, heard they're not reliable"
jeremyc said:
Im sure theres a PH'er out there (Graham something?) with seven or eight rebuilds that need to be added to the chart too...
However, we have to respect the fact that not everyone will want to include such specific details of their cars on a public forum - especially if they have been (or are hoping to be) recipients of whatever "goodwill" TVR are prepared to give.
I know, I know his PH name but thought better of it... Can certainly think of a fair few people I know who havent come forward and I respect thier decision to do so.
Apache said:
Agreed, that is a complete bag of wank, if ever there was a car that would be treated correctly it's a TVR, every fecker and his dog will mention reliability so no one buys these things without some anticipation of being mechanically sympathetic.
I'm not generalising, unlike your good self. What was said was that TVR are not the only people to blame for SP6 engines going bang. Similarly, I did not say that owwners were the only reason. But I consider the following and conclude that owners may have had some small input.
Some owners aren't aware the car needs very careful warming up.
Some are quite happy to rag cars after the 1000 mile sevrice - cos they believe them to be run in then.
An small elenment that rev the nuts off the cars when cold so someone can hear their new exhaust....and try to prove it sounds every bit as musical as a V8
Some owners who do not know when to check the engine oil level - hot or cold.
No disrespect, nbut your good old V8 with many many years of development and 65 BHP per litre may take some of the above abuse, a SP6 with a lot less development years and close to 100 BHP per litre may protest.
No doubt I will be flamed for the above, but its true and I've seen examples of the above first hand many times.
>> Edited by daftlad on Thursday 9th September 07:22
Gassing Station | Speed Six Engine | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff