Engine re-build...bit by bit. Possible?

[donutsina911]

An update (of sorts)....

I've freed up a bit of cash and am now seriously looking at engine options for the new year - I must have looked through probably every thread on here and still non the wiser...

1) Reliability is a must - hate the 'when will it blow' sensation every time I drive and I plan to do a fair few miles..
2) Not overly fussed about more power, although if I'm going to be dropping five figures on this car, it'd be nice to have a little bit more...
3) Price comes into the equation, only because I'd like to do other bits and pieces at the same time.

Options...

1) TVR Powers engine rebuild with warranty
2) Powers upgrade to 4.3
3) RG FFF with Syvecs and simplex chain

So, with £10k give or take a little, what would you go for?

[chris watton]

I did think about the FFF head, but I concluded that perhaps the Powers 4.3 would be better, because (AFAIK) the top and bottom ends are changed/rebuilt, whereas the FFF is just the head. I could be wrong, but that's what I assume.

If you're going to spend £10k, you may as well go for the extra power, rather than a standard rebuild.

[m4tti]

chris watton said:

I did think about the FFF head, but I concluded that perhaps the Powers 4.3 would be better, because (AFAIK) the top and bottom ends are changed/rebuilt, whereas the FFF is just the head. I could be wrong, but that's what I assume.

If you're going to spend £10k, you may as well go for the extra power, rather than a standard rebuild.

Yep you're wrong. The fff rebuild would constitue bottom end and a completely replaced brand new head unlike the 4.3. Some people like the 4.3, I prefer the engineering in the fff solution.

Donuts have you tried the fff demonstrator. If you haven't I would recommend you do. Have a look at the link in my profile you'll see all the parts used.

[donutsina911]

m4tti said:

Yep you're wrong. The fff rebuild would constitue bottom end and a completely replaced brand new head unlike the 4.3. Some people like the 4.3, I prefer the engineering in the fff solution.

Donuts have you tried the fff demonstrator. If you haven't I would recommend you do. Have a look at the link in my profile you'll see all the parts used.

I've not M4tti...to be honest, RG are being quite slow about booking stuff in right now, so I'll try and co-ordinate a drive with them when they can squeeze in some workshop time for me.

[m4tti]

More than likely. I think they should be getting up to speed again now. Don't make any decision till you've tried their tuscan demonstrator. It's probably the best driving TVR on the planet.

[donutsina911]

m4tti said:

More than likely. I think they should be getting up to speed again now. Don't make any decision till you've tried their tuscan demonstrator. It's probably the best driving TVR on the planet.

Cheers Would you mind PM'ing me info on the cost of the work you had done? (appreciate I'd need to add a grand or two for engine lift) I'm guessing website list prices are a little different to actual costs!

[chris watton]

m4tti said:

Yep you're wrong. The fff rebuild would constitue bottom end and a completely replaced brand new head unlike the 4.3. Some people like the 4.3, I prefer the engineering in the fff solution.

Donuts have you tried the fff demonstrator. If you haven't I would recommend you do. Have a look at the link in my profile you'll see all the parts used.

Ah, OK, am happy to stand corrected.


Is the cost more or less the same as Powers 4.3?

[m4tti]

chris watton said:

Ah, OK, am happy to stand corrected.


Is the cost more or less the same as Powers 4.3?

Its tricky for me to quote as it was primarily my labour. You'd need to ask but I believe with syvecs its in the region of 12k.

I can tell you now though that I watched it at the new Surrey rolling road a couple of weeks back so they could do some bench marking, and straight off the street with standard exhaust, air box, and cats and it did approximately 420 bhp. And the new SRR seems to be reading slightly lower than the previous premises.

Incredible for a 4litre with standard breathing. In fact pretty awesome for any NA 4 litre engine.

[chris watton]

m4tti said:

Its tricky for me to quote as it was primarily my labour. You'd need to ask but I believe with syvecs its in the region of 12k.

I can tell you now though that I watched it at the new Surrey rolling road a couple of weeks back so they could do some bench marking, and straight off the street with standard exhaust, air box, and cats and it did approximately 420 bhp. And the new SRR seems to be reading slightly lower than the previous premises.

Incredible for a 4litre with standard breathing. In fact pretty awesome for any NA 4 litre engine.

Cheers for that. It does sound impressive. If I get around the 400bhp mark on my 4.3 (soon, I hope), I'll be happy

[m4tti]

Increasing your capacity by 300cc's and leaving the rest standard won't get you there.

[chris watton]

m4tti said:

Increasing your capacity by 300cc's and leaving the rest standard won't get you there.

Mine's a 3.6....

[m4tti]

I was referring to the increase on a 4.0 litre. As the only difference is the rod and piston even on a 3.6 the Same applies. You won't get 400bhp... Maybe on powers rollers .

[chris watton]

m4tti said:

I was referring to the increase on a 4.0 litre. As the only difference is the rod and piston even on a 3.6 the Same applies. You won't get 400bhp... Maybe on powers rollers .

I thought the top end was also modified for the 4.3, cylinder head (as well as bottom end) is stripped and rebuilt, and new camshafts are listed on the Powers website, so I think that it is a lot more than the rods and pistons.

[m4tti]

chris watton said:

I thought the top end was also modified for the 4.3, cylinder head (as well as bottom end) is stripped and rebuilt, and new camshafts are listed on the Powers website, so I think that it is a lot more than the rods and pistons.

You get the head rebuilt with components with the appropriate case hardening etc cams and followers.

The fff is re worked and produced on a computerised cnc machine by an F1 engineer.

[Andy_mr2sc]

Excuse my ignorance but could someone explain to me how Powers get, and I quote from their website '370hp AT THE WHEELS' from their 4.3 conversion?
On reading their advert for this conversion, the ONLY modifications to the engine that will actively increase the power is the increase in cc and the new cam shafts. Even then there is no mension of a different spec of cams from the original. All of the other mods are to improve the engines strength and reliability so they can offer their commendable warranties.
RG and Simon Armstrong went to massive lengths to get the power and reliability from their head design. This includes a fresh head casting with cnc porting, cnc machined combustion chambers and revised (hotter) cams. Then there's the bucket followers for reliability.
I've recently witnessed first hand a number of these FFF engines, some with the highly critically acclaimed Syvecs management system. They invariably reach 400 to 420hp AT THE FLYWHEEL on an INDEPENDENT rolling road.
Call me a cynic but I find it extremely difficult to believe what is essentially an increase of 300cc and some (arguably as no detail is given) new cams can give a similar hp figure (370 atw is approx 400/410 atfw) on the original management.
Has anyone done a comparative test between the two engine designs on an independent rolling road? I would be very interested to see the results from this.

[m4tti]

Chris read the above closely before parting with your cash. Look at the wiki.

[coetzeeh]

How does RG's FFF & engine rebuild warranty compare with Power's 5 year 100 000 miles?

[alex_gray255]

There have been quite a few posts on here comparing engine options before. Suggest you read those as I don't have anything additional to contribute. I did the same thing about two years ago and did a Powers 4.5

[chris watton]

m4tti said:

Chris read the above closely before parting with your cash. Look at the wiki.

I have, I have read almost every thread regarding this topic.

I have no doubt the RG is great, but also the Powers 4.3/4.5 is also great. I haven't seen one negative post (or PM) regarding the Powers upgrade.

I know the RG option is a lot more expensive, too - you mention around £12k, is that with or without VAT? And that's just the engine - I want my cooling system and clutch overhauled when I have the 4.3. I want a very reliable Tamora that will give me no worries and plenty of smiles for the next few years. The Powers upgrade will give me that, I think.

But I do have a budget and I have to stick to it (around £12k). I know Powers Performance, I have used them a few times, so I am happy for them to sort my car.

[clive f]

I think you will find that the big increase in power on the fff is down to a bit of porting work, but mostly down to much more aggressive camshafts, forget the bucket v finger follower argument, its down to the amount of lift and duration of the cam that is giving the increase.
I have a standard 4lt lump, but with higher lift cams, higher flowing injectors, new airbox, & thinned throttle spindles and on an independent dyno have 417bhp @fly, a large portion of the power increase over standard is down to the camshafts.

Rumour has it that the first fff heads did not produce any more power over the standard head until they fitted very aggressive cams to get the improvement they are showing today, fair play to them its another option for someone looking at an engine rebuild, but don't rule out the finger followers, there are some very high mileage engines out there now that have had no problems, I believe on of Dom`s has clocked over 200k?