Racing Green - buckets anyone?

[jellison]

So what are the numbers (£) just for the bucket / shim conversion (lets not get dragged into if anything else was done to a particular car) - just this part / swap over?

[s6boy]

T40ORA said:

So are you allowed to publish figures, or do I need to talk to Martin direct? Still trying to find the pennies to buy one of these things!

I'd guess err roughly 392bhp and a nice round 300lb/ft.

[jellison]

It is not going to make any more power than the std car - Sags make at best 370bhp and 310ft/lbs. The actuation is different but the valve and porting are the same,, just a more efficient / relaible mothod of operation.

Price (I am not in the market - but interested).

[Luca Brazzi]

Very nice figures

The engine put out a proper 392 BHP at 7500 and was still pulling and a whisper under 300lbft between 5000 and 6500 rpm. There is a little more work to do with the cam timing and this should result in slightly more power across the board.

Can you explain why there won't ever be more than 370bhp??

Ta LB

[ceejay]

A completely standard 4.0S engine made 378bhp at 7K rpm in the T350R and 310 torque. The speed 6 is a very peaky engine and will make power if you can rev it. 392bhp at 7.5k sounds reasonable but I'd like to see more torque from the unit. I'm sure they're working on that.

Edited by ceejay on Friday 5th September 08:54

[jellison]

Luca Brazzi said:

Very nice figures

The engine put out a proper 392 BHP at 7500 and was still pulling and a whisper under 300lbft between 5000 and 6500 rpm. There is a little more work to do with the cam timing and this should result in slightly more power across the board.

Can you explain why there won't ever be more than 370bhp??

Ta LB

Getting off track here. But SRR (this is going back well over a year) have not ever seen a Tuscan S or Sag lump make more than 370 most make a more like 360. And I know someone that had one of the last Sag lumps rebuilt fresh by th factory just before they closed up shop and that was meticulously run in over 2000k miles (I'd have had it on the red line in 600 miles as that is the absolute max a modern egine should ever need - race engines get alo less than this). And that was on SRR at the end of this running in and made 367bhp (at the fly) and 310ft/lbs (the most power Sag / Tusc S) at the time (about a year - 18 months back), the best SP6 that had ever been on it.

Mind if you had taken it to one of the ones up north or Austec it might make a bit more or be run in a different gear which can change the results some what.

It is the Torque that makes them go anyway. The 300 - 310 ft/ is so peaky and high up the rev ranges as to seem gutless compared to a Highly tuned RV8 or other V8's. I know what a Sag goes like as I have taken Chaz and the Sales bloke at RG for a spin in mine to show that Monster torque (but not a huge amount more power equates to acceleration that leaves a Sag for DEAD.

• *So back to the thread - what price for this conversion. As this even if 2 or 3 grand will stack up reall well against Wilders full sort if it is a Proper fix (but only miles will tell that).

[trackcar]

That 378 was remapped aswell, so the RG engine does certainly seem to have more going for it at the top end which is a nice result The downfall of the SP6 is still it's lack of midrange .. if the RG is under 300lb.ft at 5250revs thats under 300hp at that point, so just under 300 to just under 400 in 2000 rpm shows you how peaky they are (about 20% less power midrange than an AJP8 for example). HOWEVER the good thing about the buckets should be that it will rev, so if they've got a strong bottom end and can rev and rev to over 8k then the opportunity for BIG numbers is there for the taking!! Let's hope they do it 450hp SP6 anyone? I hope this is what RG are thinking along with the extra reliability because that would really be something.

[jellison]

I have not even read the below - let have some prices for this head sorting mod. I am talking about cars with No mods, properly run in.

They are gutless in the midrange. Having to rev them to 7500 or more to get the power is just Daft.

These things do not have steel cranks (apart from in a few very early cars or race ones). Forged I think. A billet EN steel straight 6 crank will be about £3500 vs something alot less for a forged one (and ALOT less strength wise). 8k will have them popping like Xmas crackers.

I woul not run a non steel Sp6 regularly past 7250 (the odd blast to 7500 would be fine - but not running at these numbers alot - just asking for a trouble), it is a very long crank (huge bores!), a forged V8 one will rev higher as no where near as long.

Edited by jellison on Friday 5th September 09:13

Edited by jellison on Friday 5th September 09:18

[Whitey]

All this talk of a bit more power from this modded engine is wonderful.

BUT

What the majority of Speed 6 owners want (in particular the long suffering ones) is proven reliability.

Let me spell that out R E L I A B I L I T Y. (checks spelling again)

A promise of 5 to 10% more power without proven reliability will not make me spend any money on this.

Also if the bucket set up still contains shims then I take it every second service or less you would have to be paying out more to get these checked?

[trackcar]

You can get hydraulic followers in a bucket arrangement but shims would be easier to design in .. but you pay already to have your sp6 shims done so in that respect there's surely no detriment? and as you say the extra reliability should mean that when they're in there you don't get a nasty phone call saying you need new cams and followers, so easier on your mind as well as your pocket once you've made the inital outlay?

There's always the big if hanging over sp6 mods but hey we're nothing if not optimistic in the tvr community (except JS sorry John) so it's nice to have something to grab on to .. and who knows this might be a big leap forward?

I don't know how it leaves people like tvr power and straight8 who are presumably doing rebuilds with revised sp6 specs which are proving reliable (certainly don't hear about those engines giving much trouble so they're doing something right and have been for quite some time, and also the raceproved cover conversions with which there has never been a subsequent cam or follower failure and already proved under racing conditions too in our car at snetterton a couple of years ago where the only failure we didn't have was the engine which was absolutely faultless throughout a long weekend of races and quallies) but more choice is never a bad thing and keeps everyone one their toes and the whole game moving forwrds

[andyoleary]

Whitey makes a good point actually. However, if you talk to RG about power figures (before any mapping has been done) they will tell you that their focus has not been on top-end power, their focus has been completely on re-engineered reliability. Improved driveability, smoother delivery, more power - all these things are consequential of the new design and components used (in my somewhat limited opinion)

As I see it, the bucket modification is an extension to the design work they have been doing for a long time on the SP6 in general. The new/exchange units they are fitting (with followers) have all the re-engineered components that have been listed before already on this thread and have been designed for reliability.

So, you have 3 options really with RG - go with a new engine design based on the "current" top-end follower/cam set-up (with improved bottom-end components etc) or go with the new top-end bucket/cam set-up (with improved bottom-end components etc) or, lastly, keep your current bottom-end and just retro-fit the new top-end bucket/cam set-up.

This is how I see it anyway, I stand to be corrected of course.

Andy

PS: Potential 4th option perhaps?.....bucket/cam with supercharger....mmmmm

[JonRB]

andyoleary said:

Potential 4th option perhaps?.....bucket/cam with supercharger....mmmmm

Well, it's funny you should say that....

Personally I don't find myself wanting more power on the Sag - it's plenty fast enough when on song - what I want is more torque, especially lower down.

I agree with jellison (yes, it does happen occasionally) that the Sag is sadly gutless when off the boil, and as the ex-owner of a Chimaera 500 that really sucks.

My ideal configuration would be to re-engineer the S6 engine for as much low-down torque as possible, by means of induction and mapping and the like, and then make up the lost top-end power with a supercharger.

Accepted wisdom seems to be that the S6 engine will lend itself best to a Vortech / Rotrex type centrifugal 'charger which do not do much to boost low-down power or torque, hence my suggestion above.

Obviously a roots or twin-screw supercharger would have the advantage of boost across the rev range, but my understanding is that nobody is looking at these for the S6 (happy to be corrected) due to efficiency and packaging.

Edited by JonRB on Friday 5th September 12:39

[trackcar]

Funny you should say that, I'm developing some sp6 goodies to address the low end hp issues, but sadly you can't massively increase them, but gains can be made

[Buffoon]

It is a joy to see some activity on the Speed Six forum again, for all the right reasons.

There is much conjecture here though, and I like others would love to see some hard and fast facts. Not about power or proven reliability (which is a long way off), but what you get for your money.

I have no reason to go anywhere but TVR Power at the moment, but it would be nice to know what is available and how much.

Anyone able to badger RG for some facts & figures?

[JonRB]

Buffoon said:

Anyone able to badger RG for some facts & figures?

I would confidently predict that they will release them when they are ready.

RG have been working steadily and silently on this for a while, and I know they are passionate about TVR and the S6 engine, so there is no reason to think that they will withhold information once they are ready to give it.

Personally, I think it is fantastic that we have not just one, but a number of companies, all working on improving the S6 engine.

[rev-erend]

JonRB said:

Buffoon said:

Anyone able to badger RG for some facts & figures?

I would confidently predict that they will release them when they are ready.

RG have been working steadily and silently on this for a while, and I know they are passionate about TVR and the S6 engine, so there is no reason to think that they will withhold information once they are ready to give it.

Personally, I think it is fantastic that we have not just one, but a number of companies, all working on improving the S6 engine.

Chas did say the bracket that appeared to be doing nothing at present was for a s/charger..

So - I guess that's a future development..

Guess more will be know after the Brit Car 24 - as Sprint says they are there..

[Dicky]

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

i started this thread off as i never saw this one

but i found out some of the figures as Colin showed me the rolling road results

[T40ORA]

Buffoon said:

It is a joy to see some activity on the Speed Six forum again, for all the right reasons.

There is much conjecture here though, and I like others would love to see some hard and fast facts. Not about power or proven reliability (which is a long way off), but what you get for your money.

I have no reason to go anywhere but TVR Power at the moment, but it would be nice to know what is available and how much.

Anyone able to badger RG for some facts & figures?

Yep, I have a price for it.

First off, I would like to underline a major point - this is a total price. It isn't a suck in price, followed by a sharp intake of breath and comments like "Ah, we'll also need to change......and this is worn out.....and that won't last..." This is a total,complete package price.

The price that Colin and Martin have quoted me is £8,995 plus VAT and fitting.

Yep, it seems a lot but as I say it is a total package price. I have nothing to gain from supporting RG in this but having had many conversations with these guys over the last 30k miles on my car (easier than timescales) I've been walked through everything that they've done - all their thought processes and developments.

I'm not technical enough to be able to repeat all the minutae of the development and the package that you get - but to reiterate again, there is no hidden cost. So you don't start off with a £4k base price but walk away having spent £10, with this you know up front what you're getting.

I'm not a wealthy bloke by any means, but as long as I can confirm that I can get the money together I will be confirming my order on Monday morning.

Of course, there are add ons if you want them - superlight Flywheel, full balancing, trick manifolds etc, but you don't have to have them. So I know that whatever happens, when I go in and buy a £9k engine that is what I will end up spending.

I know people will probably start screeching about the price, but in truth how many people start off expecting to spend half that and then spend that amount anyway but without any of the improvements included in this lump.

What I will say though, is that this will just be Chinese whispers for most people. You really need to speak to Colin and Martin about exactly what has been done, why they've done it, why they've priced it as such. And you really should try it first. Only then will you really be qualified to make comment You might be able to get a cheaper job, but not with this level of quality.




Right; I think I've probably justified my impending purchase to myself. Now it's just the wife I need to convince....

[andyoleary]

T40ORA said:

....Now it's just the wife I need to convince....

[andyoleary]

trackcar said:

Funny you should say that, I'm developing some sp6 goodies to address the low end hp issues, but sadly you can't massively increase them, but gains can be made

Sounds interesting...I might have to drop you a line about possible mapping on my engine



Andy

Edited by andytuscrr on Friday 12th September 22:50