Indication on roundabouts - please clarify for me
Discussion
johnao]i said:
RobM77 said:
I just worry that not indicating at some junctions every day is an effort by advanced drivers to demonstrate this thinking process ...
I think you misunderstand the "effort" employed in the "thinking process" of "advanced drivers". If there is no other road user who, in our opinion, would benefit from a signal, it usually means that there is, we believe [rightly or wrongly], nobody there. In other words, there is nobody for whom we are making an effort to demonstrate this thinking process, because, ...there's nobody there!If you regularly see drivers not indicating at some junctions every day I would like to know what leads you to believe that they are advanced drivers who are making an effort to demonstrate this thinking process. I would assert that it is more likely that they are simply rubbish drivers who haven't taken a moments coaching since they took their DSA test and have since forgotten and/or ignored everything they were taught?
Given that the number of advanced drivers out there using the Roadcraft approach to signalling is going to be less than than 0.25% (ie. 1 in 400) of all the drivers on the road, I think my assertion is more likely to be correct than your worry.
Being somewhat old-school , having learned the 'old' six-feature system back in the 1970's and still preferring to use it today , I have three opportunities ( features 1,2&4 ) , or possibly four ( if you consider feature five - horn warning or headlamp flash ) to be a 'signal' ) , to consider giving a signal to any other road user who might benefit from it . Besides the considerations built into the system , it is also perfectly acceptable to 'trafficate out of sequence' if a vehicle comes into view when you are part way through the system and they would benefit from it .
To answer an earlier point , I will signal for the benefit of pedestrians if I feel it will be helpful for them to know my intentions : signals are for the benefit of all road users .
It does not follow , though , that I will automatically signal to all other road users : I will only do so where my intended action would affect their driving plan .
To give a couple of examples -
Driving along the motorway , there is traffic well behind and not catching up - there is no point at all in giving a signal to tell them I'm turning off as it will make no difference at all to them .
If traffic was following closer , and I was going to have to reduce speed on the main carriageway because of other traffic on the exit slip , then a signal WOULD be appropriate because it forewarns the following driver .
Two other examples
Joining the motorway - how many habitually trafficate right when joining from a slip road ? Why ? Where else can you possibly be going ? What do you think the driver on the carriageway expects you to do ?
I never signal to join a motorway - either there is a safe gap and you merge safely into it , or you adjust your speed ( stopping if necessary , but seldom ) , then proceeding when safe .
Overtaking , again on the motorway - either there is no close following traffic , in which case the overtake is on and no one behind would benefit from a signal ( a horn warning or headlamp flash to the vehicle being overtaken is a separate consideration ) ; if someone gaining from behind , the overtake is not on .
Lots more examples where signalling can be considered and decided against - as long az consideration is used - that is key .
To answer an earlier point , I will signal for the benefit of pedestrians if I feel it will be helpful for them to know my intentions : signals are for the benefit of all road users .
It does not follow , though , that I will automatically signal to all other road users : I will only do so where my intended action would affect their driving plan .
To give a couple of examples -
Driving along the motorway , there is traffic well behind and not catching up - there is no point at all in giving a signal to tell them I'm turning off as it will make no difference at all to them .
If traffic was following closer , and I was going to have to reduce speed on the main carriageway because of other traffic on the exit slip , then a signal WOULD be appropriate because it forewarns the following driver .
Two other examples
Joining the motorway - how many habitually trafficate right when joining from a slip road ? Why ? Where else can you possibly be going ? What do you think the driver on the carriageway expects you to do ?
I never signal to join a motorway - either there is a safe gap and you merge safely into it , or you adjust your speed ( stopping if necessary , but seldom ) , then proceeding when safe .
Overtaking , again on the motorway - either there is no close following traffic , in which case the overtake is on and no one behind would benefit from a signal ( a horn warning or headlamp flash to the vehicle being overtaken is a separate consideration ) ; if someone gaining from behind , the overtake is not on .
Lots more examples where signalling can be considered and decided against - as long az consideration is used - that is key .
Edited by Pontoneer on Wednesday 22 June 13:14
Motorways are indeed one of the main places where I'd choose not to signal. This is because of the clear sight lines and lack of hidden junctions or of course pedestrians and cyclists. On ordinary suburban roads though it's extremely unusual to know beyond all reasonable doubt that nobody will benefit from your signal, unless you're superman and can see through walls and trees 
Quite , none of us are infallible .
However , I would not signal for an unseen road user , rather would wait until they came into view and signal as appropriate . I may still anticipate that someone 'might' come out of that road on the left and be prepared for them if they do .
Anticipation is still one of the most important elements of advanced driving , as we were taught to commentate " I shall base my driving plan on three things : what I can see ; what I cannot see ; and the circumstances I can reasonably expect to develop " .
However , I would not signal for an unseen road user , rather would wait until they came into view and signal as appropriate . I may still anticipate that someone 'might' come out of that road on the left and be prepared for them if they do .
Anticipation is still one of the most important elements of advanced driving , as we were taught to commentate " I shall base my driving plan on three things : what I can see ; what I cannot see ; and the circumstances I can reasonably expect to develop " .
True, but there are situations where that unseen road user can see you, but you can't see him. Pedestrians at night are a classic example. Also, the observation required to see absolutely everything would be exhaustive - at a roundabout for instance you'd have to look up every single exit with a very careful eye. There simply isn't time whilst driving to observe to that degree of depth.
RobM77 said:
Motorways are indeed one of the main places where I'd choose not to signal. This is because of the clear sight lines and lack of hidden junctions or of course pedestrians and cyclists. On ordinary suburban roads though it's extremely unusual to know beyond all reasonable doubt that nobody will benefit from your signal, unless you're superman and can see through walls and trees 
RobM77 said:
True, but there are situations where that unseen road user can see you, but you can't see him. Pedestrians at night are a classic example. Also, the observation required to see absolutely everything would be exhaustive - at a roundabout for instance you'd have to look up every single exit with a very careful eye. There simply isn't time whilst driving to observe to that degree of depth.
Night time is harder to see other road users and is also where the signal is more effective as it stands out better - that is why I use it more often at night in the same situation I would not use it in the daylightGood well practiced scanning is the key for roundabouts to accertain whether any of those road users, if there are some, need to see a signal
It is also the time that the AD puts themselves (virtually) into the other road users positions to get an insight as to what they are likely to be doing
Vipers said:
RobM77 said:
Motorways are indeed one of the main places where I'd choose not to signal. This is because of the clear sight lines and lack of hidden junctions or of course pedestrians and cyclists. On ordinary suburban roads though it's extremely unusual to know beyond all reasonable doubt that nobody will benefit from your signal, unless you're superman and can see through walls and trees RobM77 said:
True, but there are situations where that unseen road user can see you, but you can't see him. Pedestrians at night are a classic example. Also, the observation required to see absolutely everything would be exhaustive - at a roundabout for instance you'd have to look up every single exit with a very careful eye. There simply isn't time whilst driving to observe to that degree of depth.
Yes , whilst a pedestrian might be shrouded by darkness , I will be looking out for him in places of concern .If I am turning into a junction , I will be watching for pedestrians who might be crossing that side road ; I won't be concerned about the ones 200yds further up the main road and who I won't be going near ( unless I can see them waiting to cross and it would be courteous to let them know I will be turning off before reaching them ) .
Similarly with roundabouts , sight lines often don't open up until the last minute ( in fact a lot of roundabouts are now deliberately engineered to restrict visibility so as to force people to slow or even stop ) , so you have to prioritise , and scan in a systematic way . The old adage of far distance , middle distance , near foreground won't always work in built up areas where visibility is restricted and a lot is going on close by . With some roundabouts , you have to watch for your gap on the approach , then check all exit roads in sequence as you come to them . At a roundabout , I may see a car approaching from my right and decide not to signal since I will be across the roundabout and gone before he even reaches it ; on the other hand , I may trafficate for a car some distance behind me if I cannot determine whether or not I can proceed onto the roundabout - even though I may be able to cross before he catches up , if there seems to be a likelihood of him catching up then I will tell him where I plan to go . Proceeding round the roundabout , if another hitherto unseen vehicle comes into view , prior to which no signal was required , I can just give a signal for his benefit to indicate that I am either continuing round or exiting before him - every situation is fluid , and it all comes down to common sense .
On the subject of signalling vs not signalling , I am strongly of the opinion that if you are in unfamiliar territory and unsure where you are going , or which signal would be appropriate , it is infinitely better to give no signal than a wrong or misleading one . The other driver may wonder 'Where is this ***** going ?' and exercise caution , but that is preferable to saying you are going in one direction , then doing something else and causing a crash .
Pontoneer said:
Yes , whilst a pedestrian might be shrouded by darkness , I will be looking out for him in places of concern .
If I am turning into a junction , I will be watching for pedestrians who might be crossing that side road ; [b]I won't be concerned about the ones 200yds further up the main road and who I won't be going near ( unless I can see them waiting to cross and it would be courteous to let them know I will be turning off before reaching them ) .
Hmm. How do you know he wants to cross? When I cross the road I don't stop like a 12 year old and look left and right, I walk along the road waiting for a gap, then cross when I can. If I am turning into a junction , I will be watching for pedestrians who might be crossing that side road ; [b]I won't be concerned about the ones 200yds further up the main road and who I won't be going near ( unless I can see them waiting to cross and it would be courteous to let them know I will be turning off before reaching them ) .
On a busy road it can be critical to get the right gaps otherwise I might end up like that 12 year old stood there for ages. Or maybe the pedestrian isn't on the pavement at all; maybe they're behind a wall and looking over the top waiting to cross? Or maybe they're on an exit to a roundabout 100 yards ahead - why would you be scanning up there if you're turning off closer to you?RobM77 said:
Hmm. How do you know he wants to cross? When I cross the road I don't stop like a 12 year old and look left and right, I walk along the road waiting for a gap, then cross when I can. On a busy road it can be critical to get the right gaps otherwise I might end up like that 12 year old stood there for ages. Or maybe the pedestrian isn't on the pavement at all; maybe they're behind a wall and looking over the top waiting to cross? Or maybe they're on an exit to a roundabout 100 yards ahead - why would you be scanning up there if you're turning off closer to you?
If there is nothing to suggest to me that the pedestrian a couple of hundred yards up the road wants to cross , then I won't signal to them . On the other hand , if something about their posture or demeanour suggests they want to cross ( they may be standing looking left and right , or may be walking close to the edge of the pavement , or side of the road , and glancing over their shoulder with each passing car ...... ) then I will signal . On a busy road it can be critical to get the right gaps otherwise I might end up like that 12 year old stood there for ages. Or maybe the pedestrian isn't on the pavement at all; maybe they're behind a wall and looking over the top waiting to cross? Or maybe they're on an exit to a roundabout 100 yards ahead - why would you be scanning up there if you're turning off closer to you?The roundabout 100 yds up ?
I would always be scanning as far as visibility allows , and certainly looking for traffic coming from that direction ; I think I would be likely to notice pedestrians , other than those hiding behind bushes or peeking over walls , but probably would not signal for ones so far away .
As pedestrians , they probably would not be looking as far away as I would as a driver .
I can guarantee there are countless pedestrians who you don't spot, especially at night, and maybe even cars as well. Nobody's perfect.
The issue is that driving should be layered, so if you make a mistake in one area, there's another area you're falling back on, and perhaps even another after that. The approach of trusting your observation 100% and only indicating if you see someone to indicate to gives you no fall back at all.
The issue is that driving should be layered, so if you make a mistake in one area, there's another area you're falling back on, and perhaps even another after that. The approach of trusting your observation 100% and only indicating if you see someone to indicate to gives you no fall back at all.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 22 June 14:51
I agree nobody is perfect , least of all me ; and we can all be distracted at times , missing something important .
However , I doubt that I fail to see that many road users with whom I will interact . We all tend to become adept at recognising areas likely to present danger and to focus our attentions on them , pushing other , less relevant , details into the background .
However , I doubt that I fail to see that many road users with whom I will interact . We all tend to become adept at recognising areas likely to present danger and to focus our attentions on them , pushing other , less relevant , details into the background .
RobM77 said:
The approach of trusting your observation 100% and only indicating if you see someone to indicate to gives you no fall back at all.
That is why the system provides for considering whether or not to signal THREE TIMES on the approach to every hazard , and why flexibility allows you to signal at any time if someone 'appears out of nowhere' .Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 22 June 14:51
An advanced driver , with good observation skills , won't miss much .
If he does miss another road user , chances are the other road user would be contributing in some way to not being seen : a driver in adverse visibility not using lights , cyclists without lights or reflective gear , pedestrians darkly clad at night , those who approach rapidly and by stealth ( unlit cyclists who swoop rapidly out into roads - I cycle too BTW ) , those who just drive too fast for the conditions and 'appear out of nowhere' , and many others .
All road users should remember the motto - see and be seen .
Mmm.. each day I get frustrated with lots of people who don't indicate. For a large majority of these instances I was visible to the driver, but they're just bad drivers. However, there are lots of incidents where they couldn't have possibly seen me.
For example, on my way home I walk down a slight hill towards a mini roundabout, and I have to cross the road about 50 yards uphill from the roundabout. Frequently, I see a car stationary at the roundabout at the exit to my 3 o clock (the right turn). I can only see the car from about the middle of the bonnet onwards because of a wall, so they can't see me, but I can see the front of her car and their indicator. If I see no indicator, I cross the road, and sure enough, much of the time they're turning right. However, sometimes, they turn left, floor it up the hill and I get a closer call than I wanted! That's just one example, but there are plenty of examples where the driver can't see me, but I can see them, or their indicator at least.
For example, on my way home I walk down a slight hill towards a mini roundabout, and I have to cross the road about 50 yards uphill from the roundabout. Frequently, I see a car stationary at the roundabout at the exit to my 3 o clock (the right turn). I can only see the car from about the middle of the bonnet onwards because of a wall, so they can't see me, but I can see the front of her car and their indicator. If I see no indicator, I cross the road, and sure enough, much of the time they're turning right. However, sometimes, they turn left, floor it up the hill and I get a closer call than I wanted! That's just one example, but there are plenty of examples where the driver can't see me, but I can see them, or their indicator at least.
RobM77 said:
Mmm.. each day I get frustrated with lots of people who don't indicate. For a large majority of these instances I was visible to the driver, but they're just bad drivers. However, there are lots of incidents where they couldn't have possibly seen me.
For example, on my way home I walk down a slight hill towards a mini roundabout, and I have to cross the road about 50 yards uphill from the roundabout. Frequently, I see a car stationary at the roundabout at the exit to my 3 o clock (the right turn). I can only see the car from about the middle of the bonnet onwards because of a wall, so they can't see me, but I can see the front of her car and their indicator. If I see no indicator, I cross the road, and sure enough, much of the time they're turning right. However, sometimes, they turn left, floor it up the hill and I get a closer call than I wanted! That's just one example, but there are plenty of examples where the driver can't see me, but I can see them, or their indicator at least.
That is one senario which I have locally and always indicate as I do for every blind junction such as those that have a house each side of a junction where visibility requires the driver to 'peep & creep' in order to exit itFor example, on my way home I walk down a slight hill towards a mini roundabout, and I have to cross the road about 50 yards uphill from the roundabout. Frequently, I see a car stationary at the roundabout at the exit to my 3 o clock (the right turn). I can only see the car from about the middle of the bonnet onwards because of a wall, so they can't see me, but I can see the front of her car and their indicator. If I see no indicator, I cross the road, and sure enough, much of the time they're turning right. However, sometimes, they turn left, floor it up the hill and I get a closer call than I wanted! That's just one example, but there are plenty of examples where the driver can't see me, but I can see them, or their indicator at least.
RobM77 said:
Vipers said:
RobM77 said:
Motorways are indeed one of the main places where I'd choose not to signal. This is because of the clear sight lines and lack of hidden junctions or of course pedestrians and cyclists. On ordinary suburban roads though it's extremely unusual to know beyond all reasonable doubt that nobody will benefit from your signal, unless you're superman and can see through walls and trees SHutchinson said:
Hooli said:
Third exit? I'd use the RH lane on approach.
R0G said:
Right lane only
Left lane is marked for the first exit and the road ahead at 11 o clock
Right lane is marked for road ahead at 11 o clock and the right turn
I'm of the same view, I approach this roundabout in the right hand lane. Virtually no other motorist that I've seen negotiate this roundabout uses the right hand lane for that exit. I've seen both buses and police cars take that exit from the left hand lane on approach.Left lane is marked for the first exit and the road ahead at 11 o clock
Right lane is marked for road ahead at 11 o clock and the right turn
I now either hang back so I'm not in any traffic or try to arrive at the roundabout with no one to the left of me.
The road signs don't make it explicitly clear either but it's quite a busy section of road, especially on a Saturday when all of the sheep flock to the nearby Metro Centre shopping mall.
One to watch out for should you ever find yourself having to drive through Swalwell.
The reason for this is, the arrows are no longer painted as you see on the streetview imagery (at least I don't think they are!), the right hand lane now only has a right turn arrow and the left hand lane is as it is in streetview.
You've got me doubting myself now, but will check next time I'm on it (today) haha.
David
R0G said:
Good senario is this current one -
The only two cars are the one in the junction waiting to emerge and the one intending to turn left into that junction
Whether the one intending to turn in indicates or not, the sensible car waiting to emerge will not start to do so until it is certain about the other and that will always be when they see it slow down and start to turn the wheels ..... so what is the point of the indicator in that senario for either car?
I often indicate in that situation but I've wondered what the point of doing so is because if I am the car waiting to emerge then once the other has gone they will not need to know and I am going to let them do whatever before I do my thing and if I am the one turning in then the other will not move until it is certain of where I am going.
If I'm the driver emerging and I see your signal, I am confident of your intention. Not so confident that I am going to pull out in front of you before you've started to turn in, but confident enough that I can plan. I can judge how long it will take for you to reach the junction and turn in and I can look at the other hazards around and plan when I will be able to emerge, based on my confident expectation of when you will no longer be an issue. I won't forget about you, but you're a low priority hazard and I can concentrate on other things.The only two cars are the one in the junction waiting to emerge and the one intending to turn left into that junction
Whether the one intending to turn in indicates or not, the sensible car waiting to emerge will not start to do so until it is certain about the other and that will always be when they see it slow down and start to turn the wheels ..... so what is the point of the indicator in that senario for either car?
I often indicate in that situation but I've wondered what the point of doing so is because if I am the car waiting to emerge then once the other has gone they will not need to know and I am going to let them do whatever before I do my thing and if I am the one turning in then the other will not move until it is certain of where I am going.
If you don't signal, I'm less sure certain what you're doing. You're approaching me so I can't pull out, you seem to be slowing as you get closer, but are you turning in? Are you unfamiliar with the area and perhaps about to realise that this isn't your turning and so speed up again? Are you just generally oblivious to what's going on around you? Your unusual behaviour commands more of my attention to fathom out, and I can't plan so effectively because I'm less confident when you will cease to be an issue.
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