Indication on roundabouts - please clarify for me
Discussion
218g said:
If I'm the driver emerging and I see your signal, I am confident of your intention. Not so confident that I am going to pull out in front of you before you've started to turn in, but confident enough that I can plan. I can judge how long it will take for you to reach the junction and turn in and I can look at the other hazards around and plan when I will be able to emerge, based on my confident expectation of when you will no longer be an issue. I won't forget about you, but you're a low priority hazard and I can concentrate on other things.
If you don't signal, I'm less sure certain what you're doing. You're approaching me so I can't pull out, you seem to be slowing as you get closer, but are you turning in? Are you unfamiliar with the area and perhaps about to realise that this isn't your turning and so speed up again? Are you just generally oblivious to what's going on around you? Your unusual behaviour commands more of my attention to fathom out, and I can't plan so effectively because I'm less confident when you will cease to be an issue.
Quite true - the signal shows my 'intention' and saves you from trying to use the 'mind reading' techniques which many think you have!!If you don't signal, I'm less sure certain what you're doing. You're approaching me so I can't pull out, you seem to be slowing as you get closer, but are you turning in? Are you unfamiliar with the area and perhaps about to realise that this isn't your turning and so speed up again? Are you just generally oblivious to what's going on around you? Your unusual behaviour commands more of my attention to fathom out, and I can't plan so effectively because I'm less confident when you will cease to be an issue.
R0G said:
218g said:
If I'm the driver emerging and I see your signal, I am confident of your intention. Not so confident that I am going to pull out in front of you before you've started to turn in, but confident enough that I can plan. I can judge how long it will take for you to reach the junction and turn in and I can look at the other hazards around and plan when I will be able to emerge, based on my confident expectation of when you will no longer be an issue. I won't forget about you, but you're a low priority hazard and I can concentrate on other things.
If you don't signal, I'm less sure certain what you're doing. You're approaching me so I can't pull out, you seem to be slowing as you get closer, but are you turning in? Are you unfamiliar with the area and perhaps about to realise that this isn't your turning and so speed up again? Are you just generally oblivious to what's going on around you? Your unusual behaviour commands more of my attention to fathom out, and I can't plan so effectively because I'm less confident when you will cease to be an issue.
Quite true - the signal shows my 'intention' and saves you from trying to use the 'mind reading' techniques which many think you have!!If you don't signal, I'm less sure certain what you're doing. You're approaching me so I can't pull out, you seem to be slowing as you get closer, but are you turning in? Are you unfamiliar with the area and perhaps about to realise that this isn't your turning and so speed up again? Are you just generally oblivious to what's going on around you? Your unusual behaviour commands more of my attention to fathom out, and I can't plan so effectively because I'm less confident when you will cease to be an issue.
Basically, signals aren't the end of the story and they can't be trusted completely, but what they do that's very helpful is to assist in shuffling the priority order in one's mind when scanning the road and planning your course and actions. If everyone signalled properly, or perhaps 90% of people signalled properly (a realistic aim), then driving really would be a lot easier and a lot safer.As I've said before on here, I support treating driving like any other health and safety linked activity (using power tools at work for example), and therefore we need re-training and testing on a regular basis - perhaps every three years. Fail, and you're on the bus, simple as that. If you're a carpeneter and you need your vehicle for work, then tough, you're out of work. It's only like failing your H&S courses if you're employed by a large construction firm - same result. I happen to think that driving is a lot more risky than using power tools, and for starters it's not just your own hand you're going to cut off if your lack of training and ability leads to a mistake.
RobM77 said:
Basically, signals aren't the end of the story and they can't be trusted completely, but what they do that's very helpful is to assist in shuffling the priority order in one's mind when scanning the road and planning your course and actions. If everyone signalled properly, or perhaps 90% of people signalled properly (a realistic aim), then driving really would be a lot easier and a lot safer.As I've said before on here, I support treating driving like any other health and safety linked activity (using power tools at work for example), and therefore we need re-training and testing on a regular basis - perhaps every three years. Fail, and you're on the bus, simple as that. If you're a carpeneter and you need your vehicle for work, then tough, you're out of work. It's only like failing your H&S courses if you're employed by a large construction firm - same result. I happen to think that driving is a lot more risky than using power tools, and for starters it's not just your own hand you're going to cut off if your lack of training and ability leads to a mistake.
Not a vote winner seems to be the majority appreciation and I can acknowledge that.
Of course, if such should happen, it might provide some problems for the AD ones.
Or, we'd have to think and demonstrate DSA basics?
More sensibly, retesting should be harder then the initial test, those being retested having to show how their experience had made them more competent.
RobM77 said:
I happen to think that driving is a lot more risky than using power tools, and for starters it's not just your own hand you're going to cut off if your lack of training and ability leads to a mistake.
Being unemployed is more detrimental to your long term health than driving in a mediocre fashion.MagicalTrevor said:
I'm not going to say what my thoughts are just yet but I'd like your opinions on the following.
Take an ordinary roundabout (not a mini-roundabout) with exits at 90deg, 180deg and 270deg. Single lane all the way around, nothing out of the ordinary.
At what point do I indicate for each exit? Please also include going all the way around (coming back on yourself).
I have my own opinion and I'll share it once others have replied.
Thanks
Indicate left/right/not at all (depending on your intention) as you approach the roundabout, then move around it until you pass the exit prior to the one you intend to take, as you pass the exit indicate and move to the left lane before exiting.Take an ordinary roundabout (not a mini-roundabout) with exits at 90deg, 180deg and 270deg. Single lane all the way around, nothing out of the ordinary.
At what point do I indicate for each exit? Please also include going all the way around (coming back on yourself).
I have my own opinion and I'll share it once others have replied.
Thanks
smileymikey said:
I moved from Milton Keynes (just the odd roundabout there). To Somerset, the rules are slightly different here
1. When approaching a roundabout stop! this is irrespective of whether there are any other vehicles within a mile of you at the time
2. When turning right, start off in the left hand lane in your Rover, then meander over to the right lane
3. Do not indicate to come off the roundabout until you have actually come off the roundabout
4. When you can see your exit is blocked, rather than wait until the traffic has moved forward come onto the roundabout ensuring that you have blocked it for everyone else.
5. If you inadvertently miss your exit in your motor home/car caravan combo..please feel free to go round the roundabout, with your left indicator on constantly in order to cause the maximum confusion!
6. the rule on giving way to the right...is actually more of a suggestion
1. When approaching a roundabout stop! this is irrespective of whether there are any other vehicles within a mile of you at the time
2. When turning right, start off in the left hand lane in your Rover, then meander over to the right lane
3. Do not indicate to come off the roundabout until you have actually come off the roundabout
4. When you can see your exit is blocked, rather than wait until the traffic has moved forward come onto the roundabout ensuring that you have blocked it for everyone else.
5. If you inadvertently miss your exit in your motor home/car caravan combo..please feel free to go round the roundabout, with your left indicator on constantly in order to cause the maximum confusion!
6. the rule on giving way to the right...is actually more of a suggestion
JPJPJP said:
of course the signal is only necessary if it would be helpful / informative to another road user.
if you are approaching the r'bout at half 2 in the morning and haven't seen a car in 30 minutes and there is no other road user in sight as you negotiate the r'bout, you could correctly reach the conclusion that 'no signal' was appropriate
It is always good driving practice to indicate regardless of traffic flow or time of day.Don't forget you are not only letting other drivers know your intentions, it is also for the benefit of pedestrians who take no notice of traffic lights, filter lanes etc, and you indicating may prevent them from stepping off the pavement into your path.if you are approaching the r'bout at half 2 in the morning and haven't seen a car in 30 minutes and there is no other road user in sight as you negotiate the r'bout, you could correctly reach the conclusion that 'no signal' was appropriate
Recently, in the Sunday Times motoring section, there was a series of letters on this very subject with the majority of correspondents in favour of always signalling.
Sadly,indicating has now become an optional extra for many drivers, like ordering leather upholstery,alloy wheels or a fancy paint job.
Regular indicating does not mean being robotic or doing it by rote,it is simply letting the motorists around you, and pedestrians, of your intentions,and that can only be a positive thing.
Edited by WD39 on Friday 5th September 19:41
WD39 said:
JPJPJP said:
of course the signal is only necessary if it would be helpful / informative to another road user.
if you are approaching the r'bout at half 2 in the morning and haven't seen a car in 30 minutes and there is no other road user in sight as you negotiate the r'bout, you could correctly reach the conclusion that 'no signal' was appropriate
It is always good driving practice to indicate regardless of traffic flow or time of day.Don't forget you are not only letting other drivers know your intentions, it is also for the benefit of pedestrians who take no notice of traffic lights, filter lanes etc, and you indicating may prevent them from stepping off the pavement into your path.if you are approaching the r'bout at half 2 in the morning and haven't seen a car in 30 minutes and there is no other road user in sight as you negotiate the r'bout, you could correctly reach the conclusion that 'no signal' was appropriate
Recently, in the Sunday Times motoring section, there was a series of letters on this very subject with the majority of correspondents in favour of always signalling.
Sadly,indicating has now become an optional extra for many drivers, like ordering leather upholstery,alloy wheels or a fancy paint job.
Regular indicating does not mean being robotic or doing it by rote,it is simply letting the motorists around you, and pedestrians, of your intentions,and that can only be a positive thing.
Edited by WD39 on Friday 5th September 19:41
R0G said:
Good senario is this current one -
The only two cars are the one in the junction waiting to emerge and the one intending to turn left into that junction
Whether the one intending to turn in indicates or not, the sensible car waiting to emerge will not start to do so until it is certain about the other and that will always be when they see it slow down and start to turn the wheels ..... so what is the point of the indicator in that senario for either car?
I often indicate in that situation but I've wondered what the point of doing so is because if I am the car waiting to emerge then once the other has gone they will not need to know and I am going to let them do whatever before I do my thing and if I am the one turning in then the other will not move until it is certain of where I am going.
Driving is difficult enough without adding further complications.By not indicating in certain situations we are in danger of creating decision overload.As stated in my previous post it is far better and safer to indicate at all times.Let those around you know your intentions,and take the guessing out of motoring.The only two cars are the one in the junction waiting to emerge and the one intending to turn left into that junction
Whether the one intending to turn in indicates or not, the sensible car waiting to emerge will not start to do so until it is certain about the other and that will always be when they see it slow down and start to turn the wheels ..... so what is the point of the indicator in that senario for either car?
I often indicate in that situation but I've wondered what the point of doing so is because if I am the car waiting to emerge then once the other has gone they will not need to know and I am going to let them do whatever before I do my thing and if I am the one turning in then the other will not move until it is certain of where I am going.
WD39 said:
Driving is difficult enough without adding further complications.By not indicating in certain situations we are in danger of creating decision overload.As stated in my previous post it is far better and safer to indicate at all times.Let those around you know your intentions,and take the guessing out of motoring.
The clue is in the age of the posts you have chosen to resurrect. Been done to death mate.WD39 said:
Driving is difficult enough without adding further complications.
That's true, but effective communication is not a complication, it's an important part of good driving, and there's no getting away from the fact that effective communication requires thought. There's nothing wrong with doing all the thinking - who do I want to talk to, what do I want to say, what do I want them to do about it, might they think I mean something else, what else am I doing that's communicating something, who else might see my message, what might they think and how might they react, etc. - concluding that there's no point in signalling, and (as long as it's not misleading or poorly timed) signalling anyway. The only thing you can't do is dispense with the thinking part and still expect to communicate well.SK425 said:
WD39 said:
Driving is difficult enough without adding further complications.
That's true, but effective communication is not a complication, it's an important part of good driving, and there's no getting away from the fact that effective communication requires thought. There's nothing wrong with doing all the thinking - who do I want to talk to, what do I want to say, what do I want them to do about it, might they think I mean something else, what else am I doing that's communicating something, who else might see my message, what might they think and how might they react, etc. - concluding that there's no point in signalling, and (as long as it's not misleading or poorly timed) signalling anyway. The only thing you can't do is dispense with the thinking part and still expect to communicate well.WD39 said:
Good reply.Too many motorists drive using only hands and feet, not thier heads. But I would suggest that with all that thinking going on it would be entirely possible to get past the point at which a decision must be made. By indicating your intentions at all times to your fellow road users it will be one less decision to make,(apart from the fact that you are going to signal).It does not have to be an automatic reaction. You are going to change direction.You make a decision. You indicate.Everybody is happy, surely?
In all your comments so far you have flipped constantly between 'signals' and 'indicators'. Which is it going to be? Indicators are a means of communicating your intentions, i.e. a method of signalling. I always signal my intentions to other road users, I choose the most appropriate method based on my assessment of the circumstances. WD39 said:
SK425 said:
WD39 said:
Driving is difficult enough without adding further complications.
That's true, but effective communication is not a complication, it's an important part of good driving, and there's no getting away from the fact that effective communication requires thought. There's nothing wrong with doing all the thinking - who do I want to talk to, what do I want to say, what do I want them to do about it, might they think I mean something else, what else am I doing that's communicating something, who else might see my message, what might they think and how might they react, etc. - concluding that there's no point in signalling, and (as long as it's not misleading or poorly timed) signalling anyway. The only thing you can't do is dispense with the thinking part and still expect to communicate well.You keep banging on about one less decision to make, this leads in many drivers then avoiding the thinking bit which precludes the point at which normally a would be made decision, or seemingly not making a decision. How strange.
Anyway as before, been done to death. Out.
7mike said:
WD39 said:
Good reply.Too many motorists drive using only hands and feet, not thier heads. But I would suggest that with all that thinking going on it would be entirely possible to get past the point at which a decision must be made. By indicating your intentions at all times to your fellow road users it will be one less decision to make,(apart from the fact that you are going to signal).It does not have to be an automatic reaction. You are going to change direction.You make a decision. You indicate.Everybody is happy, surely?
In all your comments so far you have flipped constantly between 'signals' and 'indicators'. Which is it going to be? Indicators are a means of communicating your intentions, i.e. a method of signalling. I always signal my intentions to other road users, I choose the most appropriate method based on my assessment of the circumstances. When it comes to the orange flashy lights, not only might there be times when no indicating is perhaps better than indicating, but more importantly there are times when timing on and/or off of the indicator is important for effective communication so the decision whether and when to indicate has to involve thinking about the people you're talking to.
SK425 said:
7mike said:
WD39 said:
Good reply.Too many motorists drive using only hands and feet, not thier heads. But I would suggest that with all that thinking going on it would be entirely possible to get past the point at which a decision must be made. By indicating your intentions at all times to your fellow road users it will be one less decision to make,(apart from the fact that you are going to signal).It does not have to be an automatic reaction. You are going to change direction.You make a decision. You indicate.Everybody is happy, surely?
In all your comments so far you have flipped constantly between 'signals' and 'indicators'. Which is it going to be? Indicators are a means of communicating your intentions, i.e. a method of signalling. I always signal my intentions to other road users, I choose the most appropriate method based on my assessment of the circumstances. When it comes to the orange flashy lights, not only might there be times when no indicating is perhaps better than indicating, but more importantly there are times when timing on and/or off of the indicator is important for effective communication so the decision whether and when to indicate has to involve thinking about the people you're talking to.
Far too cerebral for me.I think I will now move quietly on to the football page of PH, indicating/signalling as I go.
WD39 said:
SK425 said:
7mike said:
Good reply.Too many motorists drive using only hands and feet, not thier heads. But I would suggest that with all that thinking going on it would be entirely possible to get past the point at which a decision must be made. By indicating your intentions at all times to your fellow road users it will be one less decision to make,(apart from the fact that you are going to signal).It does not have to be an automatic reaction. You are going to change direction.You make a decision. You indicate.Everybody is happy, surely?
When it comes to the orange flashy lights, not only might there be times when no indicating is perhaps better than indicating, but more importantly there are times when timing on and/or off of the indicator is important for effective communication so the decision whether and when to indicate has to involve thinking about the people you're talking to.
WD39 said:
Far too cerebral for me.I think I will now move quietly on to the football page of PH, indicating/signalling as I go.
Fixed that for yah 
and I did warn you, done to death many times before 
7mike said:
WD39 said:
SK425 said:
7mike said:
Good reply.Too many motorists drive using only hands and feet, not thier heads. But I would suggest that with all that thinking going on it would be entirely possible to get past the point at which a decision must be made. By indicating your intentions at all times to your fellow road users it will be one less decision to make,(apart from the fact that you are going to signal).It does not have to be an automatic reaction. You are going to change direction.You make a decision. You indicate.Everybody is happy, surely?
When it comes to the orange flashy lights, not only might there be times when no indicating is perhaps better than indicating, but more importantly there are times when timing on and/or off of the indicator is important for effective communication so the decision whether and when to indicate has to involve thinking about the people you're talking to.
WD39 said:
Far too cerebral for me.I think I will now move quietly on to the football page of PH, indicating/signalling as I go.
Fixed that for yah and I did warn you, done to death many times before Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff