Indication on roundabouts - please clarify for me

[R0G]

RobM77 said:

That's not the impression that I get from reading this forum. If someone only signals when they think another road user would or could benefit, then looking at the a & b problem logically, I'd reckon if that was someone's philosophy then on average roads they'd only 'not signal' about once every four or five hours of driving at the absolute minimum, probably more like once every 10 to 20 hours of driving. That's how it is with my driving anyway. This week I've done about 100 miles in the car and I'm fairly sure not once have I made a decision not to signal. There have been plenty of situations where I can't see anyone, but "b" is still a very real possibility almost everywhere I go.

I would suggest that taking a demo drive with an advanced driver might be a good idea to see how it is done in reality - many local advanced driving groups offer this for free

[RobM77]

R0G said:

RobM77 said:

That's not the impression that I get from reading this forum. If someone only signals when they think another road user would or could benefit, then looking at the a & b problem logically, I'd reckon if that was someone's philosophy then on average roads they'd only 'not signal' about once every four or five hours of driving at the absolute minimum, probably more like once every 10 to 20 hours of driving. That's how it is with my driving anyway. This week I've done about 100 miles in the car and I'm fairly sure not once have I made a decision not to signal. There have been plenty of situations where I can't see anyone, but "b" is still a very real possibility almost everywhere I go.

I would suggest that taking a demo drive with an advanced driver might be a good idea to see how it is done in reality - many local advanced driving groups offer this for free

Thanks. I've been on lots of observed drives and had demo runs, both as part of paid coaching and also some very good drivers from this forum, and basically I disagree with them on the signalling issue. It's one of a few similar things actually, although the other two seem to vary between drivers from what I think is unnacceptable to actually very good indeed. The variation seems to go hand in hand with the amount of training, experience, and level of advanced driving. All in my own humble opinion of course, I'm no expert, just a curious individual who likes discussion to pass the time

[R0G]

RobM77 said:

Thanks. I've been on lots of observed drives and had demo runs, both as part of paid coaching and also some very good drivers from this forum, and basically I disagree with them on the signalling issue. It's one of a few similar things actually, although the other two seem to vary between drivers from what I think is unnacceptable to actually very good indeed. The variation seems to go hand in hand with the amount of training, experience, and level of advanced driving. All in my own humble opinion of course, I'm no expert, just a curious individual who likes discussion to pass the time

As everyone is, you are fully entitled to your opinion.

The very first thing that happens in advanced driver 'training' is that the 'trainee' is questioned to see if they have an 'open mind' because without being 'open' to new ideas then that 'training' is going nowhere.

If during the 'training' there is an issue to which there is no agreement then the 'trainer' will state what the examiner will expect in order to pass the test. It is then up to the 'trainee' to decide what to do.

I use the terms 'training, trainer and trainee' to make it easier to follow

[RobM77]

I have an open mind, which is what led me away from advanced driving I found it to be based on a set of rules, rather than intelligent analysis and logic, which is what I prefer. My swimming coach finds this amusing (or perhaps annoying!) - if I don't understand something then I will ask questions!

Perhaps my regular time as a pedestrian contributes to my thoughts on this subject. I frequently get held up by people not indicating, and whilst they're undoubtedly just bad drivers, on some occasions a typical advanced driver wouldn't indicate in those situations either.

[Countdown]

Can I make a suggestion;

If you can see someone, anyone, no matter who he is or what information YOU think he needs or does not need, you should signal? Give him the courtesy of deciding what use to make of your information rather than deciding on his behalf ?

There is no harm in "over-signalling" but there is potential harm/frustration in "under-signalling".

In my experience not signalling on roundabouts is reaching pandemic proprotions whereas "over signalling" has never caused me an issue. YMMV.

[218g]

RobM77 said:

I'm a bit confused now (doesn't take much!). Regarding observation, I see it as a dual issue:

a) objects possible to see
b) objects not possible to see, or extremely difficult to see and beyond reasonable expectations to see.

"a" is what a driver can hope to observe and use in his gameplan as he drives. "b" has a varying potential to exist; in my example of the fens on a sunny day, there is no b, or very little chance of there being a b; but elsewhere, with trees, buildings, driveways, footpaths etc, especially at night, "b" has a fair chance of existing, so much so it can't be ignored.

With regard to indicating, road users in category "b" can sometimes need to know your intentions and would benefit from seeing an indication.

As far as I understand it, advanced drivers coached under the IAM, RoSPA etc completely ignore the possibility of b existing; they only talk about a.

I don't think that's the case at all! But may I suggest some different categories (I'll use numbers instead of letters to avoid confusion!):

1: People for whom I have answers to all the important questions about communication, like: what do I want to say, how can I best say it, when do I want say it, what do I want them to do, what might they actually do etc.
2: People for whom I do not have answers to all those questions.

Initially, everyone I see, or - for the unseen - postulate, is in category 2. As I construct my plan, they move into category 1.

I wouldn't try and communicate in any way with someone while they were still in category 2 by definition, because I don't know whether, what, how, when, why I want to say something. But they shouldn't stay in category 2 during the planning process.

There are two more categories I suppose:

3: People I should have see but didn't
4: People who, while I couldn't have seen them, I could reasonably have assumed they might be there, but didn't.

I'm obviously not going to try and communicate in any way with people in categories 3 and 4 for the same reason - I don't know whether, what, when etc I want to say something to them (how can I, I'm not even aware of their existence). But if there's anyone significant in categories 3 and 4, there's something wrong with my observation and interpretation. And as I said, I don't think encouraging me to consider using the orange flashy lights differently is going to solve that problem.

RobM77 said:

...I always consider the potential existence of "b", and usually (in fact probably well over 90% of the time), there's a b, so I indicate anyway.

It's not sufficient for me to simply acknowledge the existence of category b. I need to answer all the communication questions for all the individuals that I postulate in category b before I can put them in my category 1 and decide how, when, whether, what etc I want to communicate.

Edited by 218g on Tuesday 21st June 16:28

[Vipers]

RobM77 said:

That's not the impression that I get from reading this forum. If someone only signals when they think another road user would or could benefit, then looking at the a & b problem logically, I'd reckon if that was someone's philosophy then on average roads they'd only 'not signal' about once every four or five hours of driving at the absolute minimum, probably more like once every 10 to 20 hours of driving. That's how it is with my driving anyway. This week I've done about 100 miles in the car and I'm fairly sure not once have I made a decision not to signal. There have been plenty of situations where I can't see anyone, but "b" is still a very real possibility almost everywhere I go.

Well said, notwithstanding what these advanced drivers do or do not do, we are human, and we cannot be 100% sure all the time we have seen all there is to see on the roads, my motto is see and be seen, so I personally indicate, example, I am heading towards roundabout say at 6 'oclock, driver is entering from 12'o clock to exit at 6'oclock, because he cant see me, he doesn't indicate, I see a car coming around the roundabout, having to guess where he is going, not indicating so he must be passing my exit, but oh no, they turn off, no indicators, I would have been moving off had I see him indicating to turn left.

I can honestly say on my daily commute, about 90% of drivers do not indicate on roundabouts, does nothing to assist traffic flow, and these buggers are those who know dam well there will be cars waiting to turn onto the roundabout, its the same every day at busy times, so absolutely no excuse, just bloody ignorant me thinks.

I am sure someone will tell me they have 100% awarness at all times of what is around them, good for them, one day it may catch you out.

[Another Fluffer]

I was taught if going straight on (2nd exit) Not to indicate at all

[218g]

Vipers said:

Well said, notwithstanding what these advanced drivers do or do not do, we are human, and we cannot be 100% sure all the time we have seen all there is to see on the roads, my motto is see and be seen, so I personally indicate, example, I am heading towards roundabout say at 6 'oclock, driver is entering from 12'o clock to exit at 6'oclock, because he cant see me, he doesn't indicate, I see a car coming around the roundabout, having to guess where he is going, not indicating so he must be passing my exit, but oh no, they turn off, no indicators, I would have been moving off had I see him indicating to turn left.

Would you really? What if his left signal had been a mistake and he'd kept coming round as you'd pulled on to the roundabout?

Situations like that make me suspect (very strongly) that we'd all have been a lot better off if indicators had never been invented .

[Bacon Is Proof]

Another Fluffer said:

I was taught if going straight on (2nd exit) Not to indicate at all

Not even to indicate off?

[7db]

Countdown said:

If you can see someone, anyone, no matter who he is or what information YOU think he needs or does not need, you should signal? Give him the courtesy of deciding what use to make of your information rather than deciding on his behalf ?

What if you can see two people? One of whom will benefit from your signal and one of whom will suffer?

[RobM77]

218g said:

Vipers said:

Well said, notwithstanding what these advanced drivers do or do not do, we are human, and we cannot be 100% sure all the time we have seen all there is to see on the roads, my motto is see and be seen, so I personally indicate, example, I am heading towards roundabout say at 6 'oclock, driver is entering from 12'o clock to exit at 6'oclock, because he cant see me, he doesn't indicate, I see a car coming around the roundabout, having to guess where he is going, not indicating so he must be passing my exit, but oh no, they turn off, no indicators, I would have been moving off had I see him indicating to turn left.

Would you really? What if his left signal had been a mistake and he'd kept coming round as you'd pulled on to the roundabout?

Situations like that make me suspect (very strongly) that we'd all have been a lot better off if indicators had never been invented .

This comes back to what I said earlier - I would pull out if I had considered that the worst case scenario (i.e. he was coming all the way round in front of me) would lead to me speeding up more than planned, or perhaps him slowing a bit (although I wouldn't trust him to do that). I would never put myself in a situation where an accident would result if that worse possible outcome happened. The fact is that in rush hour driving, if you waited to pull out so that if the worst case scenario happened then nobody had to change their speed or their course, you'd be waiting to join a roundabout forever! We need indications to ease the traffic flow. Indications also allow people to prioritise. If you observe five things and need to prioritise what to look at the most, an unknown like a child at the side of the road can take priority over a car that's indicating. If people don't indicate then it's like having two children, and that makes observation harder.

On my walk to work I pass two roundabouts, and one in particular has a long queue caused purely from lack of indication. Doesn't bother me, but it must infuriate the drivers who get held up. Loads of unecessary pollution, noise and congestion, and all for the flick of a switch...

[Bacon Is Proof]

RobM77 said:

On my walk

I think this may be the crux of the matter. I walk a hell of a lot, especially at night and am in agreement with you. Maybe the people who advocate relying on their observation over accepting that their observation might not be perfect just haven't experienced drivers getting the decision to indicate or not wrong so frequently?

[Countdown]

7db said:

Countdown said:

If you can see someone, anyone, no matter who he is or what information YOU think he needs or does not need, you should signal? Give him the courtesy of deciding what use to make of your information rather than deciding on his behalf ?

What if you can see two people? One of whom will benefit from your signal and one of whom will suffer?

Interesting question. In what situation could one suffer from a correctly-applied indicator?

[218g]

RobM77 said:

This comes back to what I said earlier - I would pull out if I had considered that the worst case scenario (i.e. he was coming all the way round in front of me) would lead to me speeding up more than planned

Wouldn't it be simpler to enter the roundabout with sufficient acceleration to avoid that worst case scenario, than to have to react only after it became apparent that his signal was false? Then if his signal turned out not to be false you could just ease off.

Other people's indicators help me prioritise hazards as you describe, but on their own I'm not sure they do much to help traffic flow (other than for people prepared to make assumptions I wouldn't make). I think indicators help traffic flow as part of the rich tapestry of communication between road users - including orange flashy lights, other lights, speed, position, eye contact, hand signals, movement (yours and the car's), behaviour etc. That's why I think of them in terms of communication, not in terms of a precursor to manoeuvring.

[218g]

Countdown said:

7db said:

What if you can see two people? One of whom will benefit from your signal and one of whom will suffer?

Interesting question. In what situation could one suffer from a correctly-applied indicator?

From a correctly-applied indicator, one couldn't suffer at all, by definition. If the recipient might suffer the indicator has been incorrectly applied .

[Another Fluffer]

Bacon Is Proof said:

Another Fluffer said:

I was taught if going straight on (2nd exit) Not to indicate at all

Not even to indicate off?

Nope, I did ask my instructor why not to and he said just don't.
I do it anyway

[Bacon Is Proof]

Another Fluffer said:

Bacon Is Proof said:

Another Fluffer said:

I was taught if going straight on (2nd exit) Not to indicate at all

Not even to indicate off?

Nope, I did ask my instructor why not to and he said just don't.
I do it anyway

DSA or advanced instruction?
I remember being told off for failing to indicate off a mini roundabout, though I can't remember if that was in a lesson or on test. Mind you, my examiner threatened me with a minor if I failed to break the speed limit, or "keep up with the flow of traffic" as he put it.

[RobM77]

Regarding going straight on, to be honest there's a very small time gap between the last exit and leaving the roundabout, and the people joining at the next exit can't usually see your left indicator anyway. Plus your movements are normally very predictable almost instantaeously after that previous exit. This affects the a & b decisions I described earlier, and obviously it depends on the roundabout. It's one of the most common areas I decide not to indicate in if I do.

[m8rky]

Vipers said:

m8rky said:

I drive a BMW,what is this "indication" of which you speak?

Sounds like you drive like the Aberdonians, 99% have cars without indicators, sods. Oh and the obligatory headlight stuck on full beam.

Original answer was correct of course, if only more drivers would be aware of this.

Hi i was being ironic.Do the people that advocate the indicate only when their is someone to indicate to theory,take cyclists and pedestrians in to their decision making?