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Dr Jekyll
5,524 posts
130 months
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vonhosen said: If they aren't important to the organisation why are they in there then & keep coming up ? Because the observers tend to be one stage more pedantic than the examiners. Typically: Examiner says, 'Try holding it this way', meaning it may make it easier to drive safely smoothly etc. Observer says. 'The examiner will want you to hold it this way, so make sure you do.' Candidate thinks. 'The examiner will only be looking at how I hold it, not interested at all in whether I'm safe and smooth'. PH consensus is. 'This so called advanced lark is a waste of time, I just want to drive safely and smoothly.'
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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Dr Jekyll said: Observer says. 'The examiner will want you to hold it this way, so make sure you do.' Not in my group thank you !!
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MC Bodge
Original Poster
3,804 posts
44 months
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Dr Jekyll said: PH consensus is. 'This so called advanced lark is a waste of time, I just want to drive safely and smoothly.' I'm speaking from experience with an examiner. I had digested Roadcraft, various other driving books and done Bike IAM. As far as I was aware, my driving was considered to have no major issues and the observer was a happy, relaxed passenger. I was, however, told that that techniques mentioned earlier should be implemented. The implication being that my driving would be better -I'm not convinced, though. I had no such issues with the IAM bike test. As mentioned above, the bike IAM (although not exactly rocket science) seemed to be more relevant. I believe that everybody should have some further driving/riding training once they have become comfortable with driving after passing the DSA test. I'm just not convinced by the dogma.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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R0G said: Dr Jekyll said: Observer says. 'The examiner will want you to hold it this way, so make sure you do.' Not in my group thank you !! If one of our three examiners was to hear that from an associate then I can guarantee that the observer would get berated for it
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MC Bodge
Original Poster
3,804 posts
44 months
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Anyhow, as I said, I was curious and I discovered that my driving had no areas of concern, even if I didn't always adhere to some rules.
-I've not consciously modified my driving since the observed drive.
There's only so much that can (and needs to) be done within the law on the public highway.
Let's not get into the usual circular discussion.
I suggest we end it here.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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MC Bodge said: I suggest we end it here. Just one last offer ... If you are going to be in Leicester at any time with an hour to spare then contact me for a drive out to see the other side from what you have come across so far
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MC Bodge
Original Poster
3,804 posts
44 months
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R0G said: If you are going to be in Leicester at any time with an hour to spare then contact me for a drive out Cheers 
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lsp
30 posts
94 months
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I too am a driver with a life long interest in safe advanced road driving.
What i have learned is that the word 'advanced' is a misnomer.
Advance Drivers tend in the main to be civil servant minded folks who seek never to advance at much at all.
They never challenge what they do, so if you have the sort of enquiring mind that may make you be good at it don't get involved. it is akin to being embalmed in chloroform.
I am sure when they are not posting here with sanctimonious high mindedness, they are probably elsewhere bemoaning the decline of the coal mining industry.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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lsp said: I too am a driver with a life long interest in safe advanced road driving.
What i have learned is that the word 'advanced' is a misnomer.
Advance Drivers tend in the main to be civil servant minded folks who seek never to advance at much at all.
They never challenge what they do, so if you have the sort of enquiring mind that may make you be good at it don't get involved. it is akin to being embalmed in chloroform.
I am sure when they are not posting here with sanctimonious high mindedness, they are probably elsewhere bemoaning the decline of the coal mining industry. You have had an unusual bad experience at some point me thinks would you like to tell us the circumstances of that experience?
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lsp
30 posts
94 months
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R0G said: lsp said: I too am a driver with a life long interest in safe advanced road driving.
What i have learned is that the word 'advanced' is a misnomer.
Advance Drivers tend in the main to be civil servant minded folks who seek never to advance at much at all.
They never challenge what they do, so if you have the sort of enquiring mind that may make you be good at it don't get involved. it is akin to being embalmed in chloroform.
I am sure when they are not posting here with sanctimonious high mindedness, they are probably elsewhere bemoaning the decline of the coal mining industry. You have had an unusual bad experience at some point me thinks would you like to tell us the circumstances of that experience? Rog, I had no specific experience to communicate to you here and I should be working so am not able to go into much detail now. I have spent a lot of time with drivers keen to learn and develop and seen many stifled by unbending and slavish lord Cottenham dogma. At the same time i have observed the converts to the dogma do their stuff and not often have I seen anything that could be described as advanced. Stilted and awkward with self serving commentaries perhaps would be more apposite. In contrast I have driven with some very skillful 'coaches' and have been astounded by their developed and advanced observation and technique. Mike Franey was the greatest I ever saw, a man who saw detail in every situation. He was a free thinker and alert and was inspirational to all those lucky enough to have had the experience, imagine VH behind the wheel motivated only by what section of the driving law was pertenent to situation unfolding before him and somehow secure in that mindset.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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lsp said: Rog, I had no specific experience to communicate to you here and I should be working so am not able to go into much detail now.
I have spent a lot of time with drivers keen to learn and develop and seen many stifled by unbending and slavish lord Cottenham dogma.
At the same time i have observed the converts to the dogma do their stuff and not often have I seen anything that could be described as advanced.
Stilted and awkward with self serving commentaries perhaps would be more apposite.
In contrast I have driven with some very skillful 'coaches' and have been astounded by their developed and advanced observation and technique.
Mike Franey was the greatest I ever saw, a man who saw detail in every situation.
He was a free thinker and alert and was inspirational to all those lucky enough to have had the experience, imagine VH behind the wheel motivated only by what section of the driving law was pertenent to situation unfolding before him and somehow secure in that mindset.
The second part of that is what our IAM group observers do - build up the observation and planning skills by means of prompting or coaching then fitting that in with the roadcraft system of driving
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vonhosen
27,136 posts
86 months
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lsp said: R0G said: lsp said: I too am a driver with a life long interest in safe advanced road driving.
What i have learned is that the word 'advanced' is a misnomer.
Advance Drivers tend in the main to be civil servant minded folks who seek never to advance at much at all.
They never challenge what they do, so if you have the sort of enquiring mind that may make you be good at it don't get involved. it is akin to being embalmed in chloroform.
I am sure when they are not posting here with sanctimonious high mindedness, they are probably elsewhere bemoaning the decline of the coal mining industry. You have had an unusual bad experience at some point me thinks would you like to tell us the circumstances of that experience? Rog, I had no specific experience to communicate to you here and I should be working so am not able to go into much detail now. I have spent a lot of time with drivers keen to learn and develop and seen many stifled by unbending and slavish lord Cottenham dogma. At the same time i have observed the converts to the dogma do their stuff and not often have I seen anything that could be described as advanced. Stilted and awkward with self serving commentaries perhaps would be more apposite. In contrast I have driven with some very skillful 'coaches' and have been astounded by their developed and advanced observation and technique. Mike Franey was the greatest I ever saw, a man who saw detail in every situation. He was a free thinker and alert and was inspirational to all those lucky enough to have had the experience, imagine VH behind the wheel motivated only by what section of the driving law was pertenent to situation unfolding before him and somehow secure in that mindset. I know Mike, lovely man, we share a similar outlook on a lot of matters with regard to driver training. You obviously haven't read my thoughts on advanced driving dogma, I'm not for it at all, I don't even like the term 'advanced'.
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lsp
30 posts
94 months
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vonhosen said: I know Mike, lovely man, we share a similar outlook on a lot of matters with regard to driver training.
You obviously haven't read my thoughts on advanced driving dogma, I'm not for it at all, I don't even like the term 'advanced'. Interesting reply Von, and heartening to read that you resist dogma. That you share a friendship is something that I would not wish to contend of course. I have spent many sessions with Mike over the last 21 years and it is very difficult for me to imagine from what you written over the last 20k + posts that you have much in common with Mike in driving matters. There is so much of what makes him inspirational that you slam down at every opportunity here. I have no intention in creating division, but I feel impelled to challenge the 'moral' authority that many take here. That you embody that spirit most significantly here is why i name you in an attempt to focus my point. Advance driving exists for sure, but probably it is not something that has to fit into the Sysytm of Car Control as so rigidly enforced by IAM and Rospa.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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There are many drivers who drive to the roadcraft system but are unaware that they are doing it or why they are doing it - I have come across plenty of these over the last 12 years of observing
Those drivers were easy to help as it just meant bringing the subconcious into the concious
I use the term advanced to mean above basic DSA standard but others see it in a different way
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vonhosen
27,136 posts
86 months
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lsp said: vonhosen said: I know Mike, lovely man, we share a similar outlook on a lot of matters with regard to driver training.
You obviously haven't read my thoughts on advanced driving dogma, I'm not for it at all, I don't even like the term 'advanced'. Interesting reply Von, and heartening to read that you resist dogma. That you share a friendship is something that I would not wish to contend of course. I have spent many sessions with Mike over the last 21 years and it is very difficult for me to imagine from what you written over the last 20k + posts that you have much in common with Mike in driving matters. There is so much of what makes him inspirational that you slam down at every opportunity here. I have no intention in creating division, but I feel impelled to challenge the 'moral' authority that many take here. That you embody that spirit most significantly here is why i name you in an attempt to focus my point. Advance driving exists for sure, but probably it is not something that has to fit into the Sysytm of Car Control as so rigidly enforced by IAM and Rospa. I certainly don't think (& have been at pains to express on here when it comes up) that good driving is tied to 'the system' of car control. I am not a member of the IAM or Rospa & have no wish to join. Why ? Well because there is no one size situation fits all & the system is only one 'style' of achieving an objective. Simply trying to force everybody into one shaped jelly mold is not likely to help them realise their full potential, one dictated 'style' is too restrictive to development. That's without even starting on the learning environment & the extra benefits from coaching V instruction.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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vonhosen said: I certainly don't think (& have been at pains to express on here when it comes up) that good driving is not tied to 'the system' of car control. I am not a member of the IAM or Rospa & have no wish to join.
Why ?
Well because there is no one size situation fits all & the system is only one 'style' of achieving an objective. Simply trying to force everybody into one shaped jelly mold is not likely to help them realise their full potential, one dictated 'style' is too restrictive to development. That's without even starting on the learning environment & the extra benefits from coaching V instruction. I think I've said the same on many occasions Even though I am an IAM senior observer I recognise that there are other safe driving styles and that one style is not necessarily better or worse than another but for many drivers some sort of framework is helpful hence the need for roadcraft in many cases as well as giving them a goal to achieve
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MC Bodge
Original Poster
3,804 posts
44 months
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lsp said: Advance driving exists for sure, but probably it is not something that has to fit into the Sysytm of Car Control as so rigidly enforced by IAM and Rospa. Too right. I'm not keen on the unquestioning following of standardised, official 'rules' decided 80 years ago and occasionally revised by committee. vonhosen said: lsp said: vonhosen said: I know Mike, lovely man, we share a similar outlook on a lot of matters with regard to driver training.
You obviously haven't read my thoughts on advanced driving dogma, I'm not for it at all, I don't even like the term 'advanced'. Interesting reply Von, and heartening to read that you resist dogma. That you share a friendship is something that I would not wish to contend of course. ...There is so much of what makes him inspirational that you slam down at every opportunity here. I have no intention in creating division, but I feel impelled to challenge the 'moral' authority that many take here. That you embody that spirit most significantly here is why i name you in an attempt to focus my point. I certainly don't think (& have been at pains to express on here when it comes up) that good driving is tied to 'the system' of car control. I am not a member of the IAM or Rospa & have no wish to join. I'm a bit confused. I have never seen anything to suggest that "Vonhosen" is an IAM/Rospa/Roadcraft fundamentalist. ps. lsp, no offence and I appear to have similar views to yourself, but it might be a little easier to read your posts if you don't use a new line for almost every sentence and if you separate your thoughts into paragraphs.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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MC Bodge & Von,
I reckon if we all did a demo drive they would be very similar
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vonhosen
27,136 posts
86 months
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R0G said: MC Bodge & Von,
I reckon if we all did a demo drive they would be very similar Whilst at the same time being very different. If you look for similarities you'll find them & if you look for differences you'll find them.
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R0G
3,242 posts
24 months
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vonhosen said: R0G said: MC Bodge & Von,
I reckon if we all did a demo drive they would be very similar Whilst at the same time being very different. If you look for similarities you'll find them & if you look for differences you'll find them. I'll bet the end result will be the same safe drive
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