New tyres - which end?
Discussion
Ive always rotated my tyres so on a front wheel drive the worn fronts go on the back the better tyres on the front then new on the front as its nice to be able to stop and steer in the wet and a little lift of oversteer is fine by me and understeer isnt a nice feeling, worst case spin and scrub of some speed and go off backwards or understeer into the oncoming trafic or a tree perhaps and have longer stoping distance in the wet with the old tyres on the front??? your choice kids!!!!
james_gt3rs said:
I'd put them on the rear, cos understeer is much easier to recover from than oversteer when you're not expecting it.
Also have a search for this topic, stressed dave had a concrete explanation of the physics involved, I think it was called 'terminal oversteer', worth a read.
Um this is advanced drivers forum!!!! if we cant deal with a little oversteer then Also have a search for this topic, stressed dave had a concrete explanation of the physics involved, I think it was called 'terminal oversteer', worth a read.
its time to learn to know when to expect it ,deal with it ,or not get it because
you are driving at a suitable speed for the conditions ......
HustleRussell said:
Far, far too simplistic Powerstroke.
We're all driving gods here
but as the poster clearly said above you "if your not expecting it"
Understeer is always easier to deal with.
It should be a reflex action for anyone who thinks they are reasobly good driver!!! Ive always had pick ups and some hairy RWD cars so oversteer is a way of lifeWe're all driving gods here
but as the poster clearly said above you "if your not expecting it"Understeer is always easier to deal with.
Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 25th April 23:14
powerstroke said:
HustleRussell said:
Far, far too simplistic Powerstroke.
We're all driving gods here but as the poster clearly said above you "if your not expecting it"
Understeer is always easier to deal with.
It should be a reflex action for anyone who thinks they are reasobly good driver!!! Ive always had pick ups and some hairy RWD cars so oversteer is a way of lifeWe're all driving gods here
but as the poster clearly said above you "if your not expecting it"Understeer is always easier to deal with.
Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 25th April 23:14
Your RWD pickup will be set by the manufacturer to understeer under normal conditions; you can boot the tail out if you like. In a sudden lift while cornering situation it'll probably understeer (I don't know because I've not driven it, but that's normal).
Having much more grip at the front means that if you do need to slow down suddenly while cornering the back may step round. The problem with that is the only way to stop the slide turning into a spin is to a) stop going round the corner, or b) stop braking. Both of those are counterintuitive and not useful in that situation.
with understeer, there's no chance of spinning, so it's usually quite safe to just keep the brake to the floor. It's one less thing to think about, frankly, and there are enough things to think about while driving.
Makes me 
all the comments,this topic has been talked about for years.
The manufacturer I worked for brought a memo out to all techs 15 years ago mentioning new tyres must go to the back as mentioned to stop aquaplaning on flooded roads and complete loss of grip from the rear and usually ends up with complete loss of control.
Big to those who say Um this is advanced drivers forum!!!! if we cant deal with a little oversteer then
its time to learn to know when to expect it ,deal with it ,or not get it because
you are driving at a suitable speed for the conditions ......
all the comments,this topic has been talked about for years.The manufacturer I worked for brought a memo out to all techs 15 years ago mentioning new tyres must go to the back as mentioned to stop aquaplaning on flooded roads and complete loss of grip from the rear and usually ends up with complete loss of control.
Big
to those who say Um this is advanced drivers forum!!!! if we cant deal with a little oversteer thenits time to learn to know when to expect it ,deal with it ,or not get it because
you are driving at a suitable speed for the conditions ......
davepoth said:
You're getting mixed up between power oversteer (which is great, controllable unless you are a complete muppet, and fun) and lift-off oversteer.
Your RWD pickup will be set by the manufacturer to understeer under normal conditions; you can boot the tail out if you like. In a sudden lift while cornering situation it'll probably understeer (I don't know because I've not driven it, but that's normal).
Having much more grip at the front means that if you do need to slow down suddenly while cornering the back may step round. The problem with that is the only way to stop the slide turning into a spin is to a) stop going round the corner, or b) stop braking. Both of those are counterintuitive and not useful in that situation.
with understeer, there's no chance of spinning, so it's usually quite safe to just keep the brake to the floor. It's one less thing to think about, frankly, and there are enough things to think about while driving.
Yes you have never driven a pick up in anger !!! unladen about a ton on the front wheels at the back about 3 ounces!!! lift off oversteer is its stock in trade !!! Your RWD pickup will be set by the manufacturer to understeer under normal conditions; you can boot the tail out if you like. In a sudden lift while cornering situation it'll probably understeer (I don't know because I've not driven it, but that's normal).
Having much more grip at the front means that if you do need to slow down suddenly while cornering the back may step round. The problem with that is the only way to stop the slide turning into a spin is to a) stop going round the corner, or b) stop braking. Both of those are counterintuitive and not useful in that situation.
with understeer, there's no chance of spinning, so it's usually quite safe to just keep the brake to the floor. It's one less thing to think about, frankly, and there are enough things to think about while driving.
pmjg66 said:
Big to those who say Um this is advanced drivers forum!!!! if we cant deal with a little oversteer then
its time to learn to know when to expect it ,deal with it ,or not get it because
you are driving at a suitable speed for the conditions ......
I think the point is that advice like this is given to all drivers - after all, 'advanced' drivers are probably a minority. to those who say Um this is advanced drivers forum!!!! if we cant deal with a little oversteer thenits time to learn to know when to expect it ,deal with it ,or not get it because
you are driving at a suitable speed for the conditions ......
Yes, it would be better if everyone was trained to the same -high- standard, but I doubt that will happen any time soon. Besides, most people on the road just want to get from A to B and don't really give a damn about being an advanced driver.
So, accepting that most people on the road aren't 'advanced' drivers, it probably makes sense to make car control as simple as possible - for their sake and those around them.
DJ_AS said:
So, accepting that most people on the road aren't 'advanced' drivers, it probably makes sense to make car control as simple as possible - for their sake and those around them.
I wonder how many of those who have passed IAM/RoSPA have the necessary skills to recover from a skid... after all it's not part of the course...Chris
TBH, I would imagine that many IAM/Rospa drivers would not fare much better when presented with surprise oversteer. As with many things, the best way to learn about something is to do it, and you could imagine that a safe driver would do everything to avoid such an occurrence.
Perhaps it the even smaller group of people that are best placed to handle it - IAM drivers who also aren't totally averse to getting a bit sideways every now and then.
Personally, I like to play around with the limits of my car, but only when the consequences of getting it wrong are nothing more than the compulsion to turn around to get back into the desired direction.
I reckon wet trackdays or at least some skidpan training should be part of the IAM tuition - now THAT would get more youngsters interested.
After all, advanced driving shouldn't only be about driving within a vehicle's limits (although that should always be the aim) - it should also encompass what to do when those limits are exceeded.
Perhaps it the even smaller group of people that are best placed to handle it - IAM drivers who also aren't totally averse to getting a bit sideways every now and then.
Personally, I like to play around with the limits of my car, but only when the consequences of getting it wrong are nothing more than the compulsion to turn around to get back into the desired direction.
I reckon wet trackdays or at least some skidpan training should be part of the IAM tuition - now THAT would get more youngsters interested.
After all, advanced driving shouldn't only be about driving within a vehicle's limits (although that should always be the aim) - it should also encompass what to do when those limits are exceeded.
Nigel_O said:
TBH, I would imagine that many IAM/Rospa drivers would not fare much better when presented with surprise oversteer. As with many things, the best way to learn about something is to do it, and you could imagine that a safe driver would do everything to avoid such an occurrence.
Perhaps it the even smaller group of people that are best placed to handle it - IAM drivers who also aren't totally averse to getting a bit sideways every now and then.
Personally, I like to play around with the limits of my car, but only when the consequences of getting it wrong are nothing more than the compulsion to turn around to get back into the desired direction.
I reckon wet trackdays or at least some skidpan training should be part of the IAM tuition - now THAT would get more youngsters interested.
After all, advanced driving shouldn't only be about driving within a vehicle's limits (although that should always be the aim) - it should also encompass what to do when those limits are exceeded.
Yes absolutly very good points, no one should consider themselves an advanced driver without some track or skid pan expriance or aleast some fooling about on private land to get an idea of what happens when you push to hard and most importantly what works to bring things back ,learning important skils like not going for the foot brake if you lose grip, what afect to much throttle or rough gear changes have , well before the time I was old enough to pass my car test I had turned over an old a35 van more than once on a family friends farm racing round with the diff welded up ,tail out and mud flying chasing a morris minor driven by another minor !!!, also raced bikes and have done a fair bit of of road trials ...Perhaps it the even smaller group of people that are best placed to handle it - IAM drivers who also aren't totally averse to getting a bit sideways every now and then.
Personally, I like to play around with the limits of my car, but only when the consequences of getting it wrong are nothing more than the compulsion to turn around to get back into the desired direction.
I reckon wet trackdays or at least some skidpan training should be part of the IAM tuition - now THAT would get more youngsters interested.
After all, advanced driving shouldn't only be about driving within a vehicle's limits (although that should always be the aim) - it should also encompass what to do when those limits are exceeded.
Most FWD cars (and for that matter, an awful lot of RWD and even 4WD) are tuned to understeer. Some mundane hatches and saloons are so bad that there's very little you can do about it once it sets in The steering is so numb and the suspension so full of rubber bushes that there's just no option to lift off or dab the brakes the bring the rear end into play.
I rather doubt that putting new tyres on the front would instantly reverse this and create an over-steery monster - I reckon the vast majority of cars that still have legal tread on the rear would still understeer with brand new rubber on the front.
Hell - even the handbrake isn't an option on many modern cars, with funny little switches in place of the good old lever.
Cars are getting dumbed down - admittedly this is a direct correlation with the requirements of the average, dumbed down driver, but it explains why there's still a huge following for 'pure' cars, such as Pug205s, Escort Mk1s and Mk2s, early beemers and the like.
I rather doubt that putting new tyres on the front would instantly reverse this and create an over-steery monster - I reckon the vast majority of cars that still have legal tread on the rear would still understeer with brand new rubber on the front.
Hell - even the handbrake isn't an option on many modern cars, with funny little switches in place of the good old lever.
Cars are getting dumbed down - admittedly this is a direct correlation with the requirements of the average, dumbed down driver, but it explains why there's still a huge following for 'pure' cars, such as Pug205s, Escort Mk1s and Mk2s, early beemers and the like.
HustleRussell said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
Is everyone neglecting the theory that tyres bed in to their situation?
It's a theory. I'm neglecting it because I don't think it'd make any appreciable difference on a well maintained car.Nigel_O said:
Most FWD cars (and for that matter, an awful lot of RWD and even 4WD) are tuned to understeer. Some mundane hatches and saloons are so bad that there's very little you can do about it once it sets in The steering is so numb and the suspension so full of rubber bushes that there's just no option to lift off or dab the brakes the bring the rear end into play.]/quote]
Actually all road cars are tuned to understeer. The alternative has several major disadvantages in terms of response time - an oversteer car does not respond as quickly to inputs from the helm and you have the joy of a critical speed where the car self steers off the road once reached.
Actually all road cars are tuned to understeer. The alternative has several major disadvantages in terms of response time - an oversteer car does not respond as quickly to inputs from the helm and you have the joy of a critical speed where the car self steers off the road once reached.
Nigel_O said:
I rather doubt that putting new tyres on the front would instantly reverse this and create an over-steery monster - I reckon the vast majority of cars that still have legal tread on the rear would still understeer with brand new rubber on the front.
I saw the Michelin tests that help prove the advice, albeit on a wetted surface. You'd be amazed at just how easy it was for experienced drivers to wholly lose control with the new tyres on the front and well-worn on the rear. The experienced drivers were mainly the Michelin sales reps.StressedDave said:
I saw the Michelin tests that help prove the advice, albeit on a wetted surface. You'd be amazed at just how easy it was for experienced drivers to wholly lose control with the new tyres on the front and well-worn on the rear. The experienced drivers were mainly the Michelin sales reps.
I guess you could prove or disprove anything with a "test" like that useing your own drivers !!!! 
Nigel_O said:
Most FWD cars (and for that matter, an awful lot of RWD and even 4WD) are tuned to understeer. Some mundane hatches and saloons are so bad that there's very little you can do about it once it sets in The steering is so numb and the suspension so full of rubber bushes that there's just no option to lift off or dab the brakes the bring the rear end into play.
I rather doubt that putting new tyres on the front would instantly reverse this and create an over-steery monster - I reckon the vast majority of cars that still have legal tread on the rear would still understeer with brand new rubber on the front.
I've always thought this.I rather doubt that putting new tyres on the front would instantly reverse this and create an over-steery monster - I reckon the vast majority of cars that still have legal tread on the rear would still understeer with brand new rubber on the front.
However, my wife's Panda recently had two new tyres put on the front, with the original eco low-rolling-resistance tyres still on the back. Going round a damp roundabout, with no sudden change in inputs, the back end slid impressively sideways which woke up the kids
I swapped the tyres front to back, and it's back to predictable understeer.
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