Roundabout lanes

[R0G]

jimmy the hat said:

As for whether the "advanced" driver would believe this to be an OK manoeuvre or not is probably down to whether they're an advanced driver in the sense that they're actually a better driver than most or in the sense that they rigidly apply a set of rules to every situation regardless of how appropriate it may be. I've been reading this forum for a little while now and there seems to be a LOT of the latter whose "advanced" driving must be no better than most of the berks who do 45mph everywhere without paying any attention at all to what they're doing. As somebody else said on another thread, it would be very much a case of "sorry I ran over your child but did you appreciate my lack of brake-gear overlap?", you may be "correct" but you may not be "right".

There, that's bound to elicit an angry response from exactly the people I'm talking about.

Cheers, Jim

One of our advanced driving examiners said this - "If you're not driving like an advanced driver then at that moment you are not one"

[jaf01uk]

R0G said:

simoid said:

There's safe and legal, and there's also being inconvenienced by TrafPol for a chat, after you go against the advice of the Highway Code and overtake them on an unmarked roundabout.

Why would they want to stop a driver who is both safe and legal?

Problem I have with that is there is only a single lane exit therefore if the BMW driver took exception and gassed it then the overtaker would have been left with no exit? 2 lanes in and 1 out means left lane to me... un necessarily relying on someone else to accommodate your actions is too risky and given the power and overtaking opportunities available elsewhere on that road I would have been inclined to hang back on the roundabout, I am maybe too sceptical of other drivers ability to maintain speed or position on roundabouts...
Gary

[johnao]

jaf01uk said:

Problem I have with that is there is only a single lane exit therefore if the BMW driver took exception and gassed it then the overtaker would have been left with no exit?

There's an exit to your right. You could always go around the roundabout again.

[R0G]

I watched the video very carefully and took note of the exact position and line the vehicles were taking on approach

For the one in lane 1 to collide with the one in lane 2 would have meant the one in lane 1 steering really hard right as a deliberate act to do that

From the speeds involved I would say that when both were actually on the roundabout they were not next to each other even by a little bit

Was it absolutely necessary to pass safely at that point is another issue but pass safely they did

[jimmy the hat]

Indeed, it's more than obvious that the OP enters the roundabout clearly in front. It's also obvious that the OP has a reasonable amount more scope for accelerating, braking or changing direction to get themselves out of trouble should the BMW driver decide to act the twunt (or custard, if you prefer).

I'm not quite sure you were but I'm going to pretend that this...

R0G said:

One of our advanced driving examiners said this - "If you're not driving like an advanced driver then at that moment you are not one"

...was in full agreement with what I was saying and was just a more concise way of doing so. That, or the ramblings of a madman to be condemned by all, one of the two.

Cheers, Jim

[jaf01uk]

R0G said:

I watched the video very carefully and took note of the exact position and line the vehicles were taking on approach

For the one in lane 1 to collide with the one in lane 2 would have meant the one in lane 1 steering really hard right as a deliberate act to do that

From the speeds involved I would say that when both were actually on the roundabout they were not next to each other even by a little bit

Was it absolutely necessary to pass safely at that point is another issue but pass safely they did

I disagree with the boldened, the BMW driver is in the correct (and only legit) lane for going ahead, it's the OP that is heading towards a closing gap...albeit fairly quickly, if there had been 2 lanes exiting then the situation would be different, no biggy this time
Gary

[davepoth]

R0G said:

I watched the video very carefully and took note of the exact position and line the vehicles were taking on approach

For the one in lane 1 to collide with the one in lane 2 would have meant the one in lane 1 steering really hard right as a deliberate act to do that

From the speeds involved I would say that when both were actually on the roundabout they were not next to each other even by a little bit

Was it absolutely necessary to pass safely at that point is another issue but pass safely they did

Over the years, I've seen quite a few people use the outside lane of a roundabout even though they wanted an exit that they should use the inside lane for. If that had happened in this case it would have been an accident.

Regardless of how good you are at driving, and how powerful your car is, you will never be able to outdo the person in the other car that didn't see you. Taking the inside lane to go straight here gives the possibility of a conflict where there needn't be one, and so should be avoided.

[R0G]

jaf01uk said:

I disagree with the boldened, the BMW driver is in the correct (and only legit) lane for going ahead, it's the OP that is heading towards a closing gap...albeit fairly quickly, if there had been 2 lanes exiting then the situation would be different, no biggy this time
Gary

Could you point out the law that says only lane 1 can be used in that situation please?

Also - the exit mouth is wide enough for two cars

[jimmy the hat]

jaf01uk said:

I disagree with the boldened, the BMW driver is in the correct (and only legit) lane for going ahead, it's the OP that is heading towards a closing gap...

The first part is not true and the second part is not true. The OP is ahead of the BMW before they even enter the roundabout, there is no closing gap.

davepoth said:

Over the years, I've seen quite a few people use the outside lane of a roundabout even though they wanted an exit that they should use the inside lane for. If that had happened in this case it would have been an accident.

Haven't we all, roundabouts must be where I see the stupidest driving but had that happened here the BMW would simply have gone round behind the OP who is well ahead of them by the time they even enter the roundabout.

Can nobody judge speed and distance or is this simply a case of "thou shalt not" regardless of the evidence that it's actually entirely safe?

Cheers, Jim

[jaf01uk]

jimmy the hat said:

jaf01uk said:

I disagree with the boldened, the BMW driver is in the correct (and only legit) lane for going ahead, it's the OP that is heading towards a closing gap...

The first part is not true and the second part is not true. The OP is ahead of the BMW before they even enter the roundabout, there is no closing gap.

davepoth said:

Over the years, I've seen quite a few people use the outside lane of a roundabout even though they wanted an exit that they should use the inside lane for. If that had happened in this case it would have been an accident.

Haven't we all, roundabouts must be where I see the stupidest driving but had that happened here the BMW would simply have gone round behind the OP who is well ahead of them by the time they even enter the roundabout.

Can nobody judge speed and distance or is this simply a case of "thou shalt not" regardless of the evidence that it's actually entirely safe?

Cheers, Jim

I have watched the video again and I am not sure what you are referring to? The OP is bang alongside the BMW he is about to overtake as they enter the roundabout at 12:10:33 on the video with about a car and a half's length between it and the gold Saxo, they then maintain pretty much the same speed through the roundabout and the OP slots in between the saxo and the BMW on the exit, there was no big speed difference and the BMW obviously helped accommodate the op by holding back? I still maintain that the OP is in the wrong lane and "cut up" the BMW exiting, there is no "legislation or law" as ROG mentions but good old fashioned roundabout HC and etiquette says 1 in 1 out is nearside lane unless deserted, perhaps this is the reason so many people are experiencing conflict similar to that exhibited by the OP? IMO obviously...
Gary

[davepoth]

jimmy the hat said:

jaf01uk said:

I disagree with the boldened, the BMW driver is in the correct (and only legit) lane for going ahead, it's the OP that is heading towards a closing gap...

The first part is not true and the second part is not true. The OP is ahead of the BMW before they even enter the roundabout, there is no closing gap.

davepoth said:

Over the years, I've seen quite a few people use the outside lane of a roundabout even though they wanted an exit that they should use the inside lane for. If that had happened in this case it would have been an accident.

Haven't we all, roundabouts must be where I see the stupidest driving but had that happened here the BMW would simply have gone round behind the OP who is well ahead of them by the time they even enter the roundabout.

Can nobody judge speed and distance or is this simply a case of "thou shalt not" regardless of the evidence that it's actually entirely safe?

Cheers, Jim

The question you should be asking is "can I judge the stupidity of other road users?" and the answer is no. Regardless of whether the OP made the pass, he put his car in a position from where he didn't have anywhere to go if the driver of the BMW had pulled away a bit quicker and decided to turn right.

Just because it doesn't cause a problem 99 times out of a hundred doesn't mean it'll always be fine.

[R0G]

davepoth said:

The question you should be asking is "can I judge the stupidity of other road users?" and the answer is no.

Maybe no for many but others can use their experience to judge that correctly and that is exactly what I referred to in an earlier post in this thread

As no-one can say what another road users capabilities are then that point is likely to be disputed forever without conclusion

[davepoth]

R0G said:

As no-one can say what another road users capabilities are then that point is likely to be disputed forever without conclusion

So you should always be thinking "what's the stupidest thing that driver could do?" and reacting accordingly. Putting yourself into a position which goes against the highway code and relying on another driver noticing your car and reacting to it to avoid an accident is not clever.

[jimmy the hat]

jaf01uk said:

I have watched the video again and I am not sure what you are referring to? The OP is bang alongside the BMW he is about to overtake as they enter the roundabout at 12:10:33 on the video with about a car and a half's length between it and the gold Saxo, they then maintain pretty much the same speed through the roundabout and the OP slots in between the saxo and the BMW on the exit, there was no big speed difference and the BMW obviously helped accommodate the op by holding back?

Is there an uploader on here? Because I'm looking at a freeze frame just before the video hits 12:10:33 which shows the lines at the entrance to the roundabout to be two or three Saxo lengths from the front of the OP's car and no BMW at all. Not only that but it also shows considerably more than "about a car and a half's length" between the BMW and Saxo.

I think this answers my question about speed and distance and I'd love to share it.

Cheers, Jim

[jimmy the hat]

davepoth said:

So you should always be thinking "what's the stupidest thing that driver could do?" and reacting accordingly. Putting yourself into a position which goes against the highway code and relying on another driver noticing your car and reacting to it to avoid an accident is not clever.

Again, the OP is well clear of the BMW when they enter the roundabout. Yes, the BMW could speed up and drive into the side of the OP and yes, it's always worth considering what stupid things other drivers could do. The trouble is when you extrapolate that to its logical conclusion you are faced with the possibility that everybody else on the road will drive directly at you as fast as they can and that the only way to avoid it is to leave the car in the garage and go and hide under the stairs. I think you'll agree that this is probably taking the scenario a touch too far, no?

Evidently you're a touch more cautious but as far as I can see the OP has timed it perfectly and the overtake(s) is(are) not even remotely unfriendly. I can't remember if it's been covered or not but in all likelihood the BMW stops in case the van turns right.

Cheers, Jim

[R0G]

davepoth said:

R0G said:

As no-one can say what another road users capabilities are then that point is likely to be disputed forever without conclusion

So you should always be thinking "what's the stupidest thing that driver could do?" and reacting accordingly. Putting yourself into a position which goes against the highway code and relying on another driver noticing your car and reacting to it to avoid an accident is not clever.

You and I will NEVER agree on this so just accept that some drivers KNOW (not think) what IS going to be the outcome and some will not

[jaf01uk]

jimmy the hat said:

Is there an uploader on here? Because I'm looking at a freeze frame just before the video hits 12:10:33 which shows the lines at the entrance to the roundabout to be two or three Saxo lengths from the front of the OP's car and no BMW at all. Not only that but it also shows considerably more than "about a car and a half's length" between the BMW and Saxo.

I think this answers my question about speed and distance and I'd love to share it.

Cheers, Jim

Afraid it does but not as you think, the BMW is nowhere to be seen because it is absolutely alongside the OP out of shot on the left. Everyone is still rolling so the BMW would have been level with the op all the way though? The BMW is in the correct lane for exiting where they did, not the OP, is it so difficult to understand?

[jimmy the hat]

jaf01uk said:

Afraid it does but not as you think, the BMW is nowhere to be seen because it is absolutely alongside the OP out of shot on the left. Everyone is still rolling so the BMW would have been level with the op all the way though? The BMW is in the correct lane for exiting where they did, not the OP, is it so difficult to understand?

Apparently it is. Can you not see the BMW getting closer as they approach the roundabout? Does this not suggest a speed differential?

A dash-mounted camera can no longer see the front of the BMW way before the roundabout. The OP is faster than the BMW so will only get further ahead. The only way the BMW can be level with the OP, even by the time they reach the roundabout, is by dramatic acceleration. If the BMW really does want to act the twunt, the OP has the get-out of turning right.

Oh, hang on, it isn't so difficult to understand.

Cheers, Jim

[davepoth]

R0G said:

You and I will NEVER agree on this so just accept that some drivers KNOW (not think) what IS going to be the outcome and some will not

Wow.

[jaf01uk]

davepoth said:

R0G said:

You and I will NEVER agree on this so just accept that some drivers KNOW (not think) what IS going to be the outcome and some will not

Wow.

Yeah that's what I thought too... should maybe be mystic ROG?