WWYD overtaking etiquette scenario
Discussion
Its 7.00am on a weekend. You haven't seen any cars for the last twenty minutes, and it's dry and sunny, and you're 'out for a drive', with no destination / time constraint. You come off a roundabout onto an A road. There is a mile long straight ahead of you which leads into a 3rd gear right hander, and then approx. a further ten minutes of corners with few overtaking spots. You know the road ahead is regularly used by bikers who if coming the other way usually exit the long smooth right hander ahead and onto this straight section of road at well over NSL.
You see a Yaris and daewoo lunchbox going at first estimation 40mph in a NSL about 300m ahead.
Do you
a) make 'normal' progress, knowing you might not catch them and overtake without leaving a decent section of road clear to take account of a biker coming at higher speed than expected the other way. You may be stuck behind them for the rest of the route you have planned unless they turn off.
b) Stop for five minutes and let them get well ahead, then proceed as normal.
c)Use all the available vehicle power and get past them at high speed while the road is long, clear and straight, but less courteously due to your noise and a high differential speed...
d) use all available power to catch the vehicles, then slow to overtake at a more courteous speed, knowing you may give an auwful fright to a particularly fast oncoming biker exiting the corner ahead.
My instinct is for c)as it appears safest for all potential parties, albeit leaving a bad impression with the yaris and daewoo. WWYD?
You see a Yaris and daewoo lunchbox going at first estimation 40mph in a NSL about 300m ahead.
Do you
a) make 'normal' progress, knowing you might not catch them and overtake without leaving a decent section of road clear to take account of a biker coming at higher speed than expected the other way. You may be stuck behind them for the rest of the route you have planned unless they turn off.
b) Stop for five minutes and let them get well ahead, then proceed as normal.
c)Use all the available vehicle power and get past them at high speed while the road is long, clear and straight, but less courteously due to your noise and a high differential speed...
d) use all available power to catch the vehicles, then slow to overtake at a more courteous speed, knowing you may give an auwful fright to a particularly fast oncoming biker exiting the corner ahead.
My instinct is for c)as it appears safest for all potential parties, albeit leaving a bad impression with the yaris and daewoo. WWYD?
That's a really nice summation of the options.
As you're 'out for a drive' we can discount option a) immediately.
It's great that you've included option b) - the priority is to have fun on the next stretch, not necessarily to get anywhere quicker. If b) is in the mix, you'll be less likely to persist with the other two options if they start to look a bit risky.
c) demonstrates the value of a discrete vehicle for this kind of thing. I also think that high differential speeds are probably as much of an issue as 'time exposed to danger', so I've recently been trying to overtake at slower speeds. If I can get the planning and decision making done earlier then the overtake doesn't take any longer overall, but I have more time available to do it at a more sensible pace.
Having said that, one of my most memorable but childish moments was passing a Prius a while back on a long straight with a 100% speed differential. Fun at the time, but unwise in retrospect.
All the above means that d) might be the one I'd choose. I'm not sure how reasonable is it to include a vehicle travelling markedly above NSL in your planning, particularly if they'd be able to see you from a long way off. My instinct is that I'd expect someone going that fast to co-operate a bit, so would possibly allow for them needing to slow a little. I'd be interested to hear the views of others on this - especially if they're bikers too.
On a recent outing I was in a similar situation, and ended up performing the entire overtake (out, pass, and back in) whilst decelerating after catching the target in third gear. It's a very strange sensation doing an overtake while losing speed, but it made sense in those particular circumstances.
As you're 'out for a drive' we can discount option a) immediately.
It's great that you've included option b) - the priority is to have fun on the next stretch, not necessarily to get anywhere quicker. If b) is in the mix, you'll be less likely to persist with the other two options if they start to look a bit risky.
c) demonstrates the value of a discrete vehicle for this kind of thing. I also think that high differential speeds are probably as much of an issue as 'time exposed to danger', so I've recently been trying to overtake at slower speeds. If I can get the planning and decision making done earlier then the overtake doesn't take any longer overall, but I have more time available to do it at a more sensible pace.
Having said that, one of my most memorable but childish moments was passing a Prius a while back on a long straight with a 100% speed differential. Fun at the time, but unwise in retrospect.
All the above means that d) might be the one I'd choose. I'm not sure how reasonable is it to include a vehicle travelling markedly above NSL in your planning, particularly if they'd be able to see you from a long way off. My instinct is that I'd expect someone going that fast to co-operate a bit, so would possibly allow for them needing to slow a little. I'd be interested to hear the views of others on this - especially if they're bikers too.
On a recent outing I was in a similar situation, and ended up performing the entire overtake (out, pass, and back in) whilst decelerating after catching the target in third gear. It's a very strange sensation doing an overtake while losing speed, but it made sense in those particular circumstances.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Sunday 17th June 11:28
Because its two vehicles trundling ahead, Option d) is the only answer. If I had chosen c), I would be too worried about the myopic Daewoo driver pulling out to effect a 50mph overtake on the Yaris, just as I was on top of them with a "100% speed differential" (love that phrase)
If it was a single vehicle, Option c) would be deployed, partly because I can
If it was a single vehicle, Option c) would be deployed, partly because I can
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
That's a really nice summation of the options.
As you're 'out for a drive' we can discount option a) immediately.
It's great that you've included option b) - the priority is to have fun on the next stretch, not necessarily to get anywhere quicker. If b) is in the mix, you'll be less likely to persist with the other two options if they start to look a bit risky.
c) demonstrates the value of a discrete vehicle for this kind of thing. I also think that high differential speeds are probably as much of an issue as 'time exposed to danger', so I've recently been trying to overtake at slower speeds. If I can get the planning and decision making done earlier then the overtake doesn't take any longer overall, but I have more time available to do it at a more sensible pace.
Having said that, one of my most memorable but childish moments was passing a Prius a while back on a long straight with a 100% speed differential. Fun at the time, but unwise in retrospect.
All the above means that d) might be the one I'd choose. I'm not sure how reasonable is it to include a vehicle travelling markedly above NSL in your planning, particularly if they'd be able to see you from a long way off. My instinct is that I'd expect someone going that fast to co-operate a bit, so would possibly allow for them needing to slow a little. I'd be interested to hear the views of others on this - especially if they're bikers too.
On a recent outing I was in a similar situation, and ended up performing the entire overtake (out, pass, and back in) whilst decelerating after catching the target in third gear. It's a very strange sensation doing an overtake while losing speed, but it made sense in those particular circumstances.
Good post, but re the speeding biker, it is no good being the rightest guy in A&E. A head-on with a bike at 100mph will kill him, and quite possibly kill you too.As you're 'out for a drive' we can discount option a) immediately.
It's great that you've included option b) - the priority is to have fun on the next stretch, not necessarily to get anywhere quicker. If b) is in the mix, you'll be less likely to persist with the other two options if they start to look a bit risky.
c) demonstrates the value of a discrete vehicle for this kind of thing. I also think that high differential speeds are probably as much of an issue as 'time exposed to danger', so I've recently been trying to overtake at slower speeds. If I can get the planning and decision making done earlier then the overtake doesn't take any longer overall, but I have more time available to do it at a more sensible pace.
Having said that, one of my most memorable but childish moments was passing a Prius a while back on a long straight with a 100% speed differential. Fun at the time, but unwise in retrospect.
All the above means that d) might be the one I'd choose. I'm not sure how reasonable is it to include a vehicle travelling markedly above NSL in your planning, particularly if they'd be able to see you from a long way off. My instinct is that I'd expect someone going that fast to co-operate a bit, so would possibly allow for them needing to slow a little. I'd be interested to hear the views of others on this - especially if they're bikers too.
On a recent outing I was in a similar situation, and ended up performing the entire overtake (out, pass, and back in) whilst decelerating after catching the target in third gear. It's a very strange sensation doing an overtake while losing speed, but it made sense in those particular circumstances.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Sunday 17th June 11:28
If they're being daft it is their look-out, but the proper way to approach it is to mitigate risk to everyone by bearing their foolishness in mind for your own drive.
Not sure it does any harm to make dawdlers aware that their idea of an appropriate speed is a lot less than that of others. Maybe they'll eventually turn to their wife and say, "you know what, Mabel, maybe they aren't all nutters, perhaps we do dawdle about a bit".
Ooh look, a flying pig!
Ooh look, a flying pig!
wormburner said:
Good post, but re the speeding biker, it is no good being the rightest guy in A&E. A head-on with a bike at 100mph will kill him, and quite possibly kill you too.
If they're being daft it is their look-out, but the proper way to approach it is to mitigate risk to everyone by bearing their foolishness in mind for your own drive.
Certainly the calculation changes as you get closer to the corner - my point was that if it's a completely safe and relaxed overtake even with the potential of a 60mph surprise, then the appearance of a fast bike should only change it into a slightly tight one, particularly if the bike is prepared to brake a bit when they see the road in front of them isn't clear. If that margin gets tighter, then I'd have no hesitation in aborting and dropping back to option b).If they're being daft it is their look-out, but the proper way to approach it is to mitigate risk to everyone by bearing their foolishness in mind for your own drive.
I don't think anyone is going to suggest that a 100mph head-on is likely to be survivable for anyone concerned.
The other advantage of d) is that the lower differential speed means you've got more options if things don't go as hoped - most likely to brake hard and drop in behind.
On the subject of differential speeds, two things have helped form my view: My IAM group have been experimenting with practicing overtaking, and I've had a chance to see what it feels like being overtaken by someone who's had a run-up, as opposed to someone who comes past more slowly and slots back in gently. Combine this with past discussions about the potential for overtake victims to turn into hostile witnesses, and slower passes start to make a lot of sense.
I did c this morning on the a272 bearing in mind for the next ten minutes that I had potentially hostile witnesses behind me, taking extra care accordingly. The risk of a possible
oncoming biker would keep my foot planted, probably leaving a bad impression.(although if I'd been in the daewoo I'd have winded my window down, I know they can hear me coming!)
oncoming biker would keep my foot planted, probably leaving a bad impression.(although if I'd been in the daewoo I'd have winded my window down, I know they can hear me coming!)
Edited by BusaMK on Sunday 17th June 23:55
Edited by BusaMK on Sunday 17th June 23:57
As a driver
c) with possibly a touch of d) if the speed differential was massive when I caught them, bit like the overtake mentioned above that was done while slowing.
As a biker
c) please, it gives me much more space to react if I have come around the corner too fast. Plus if there is a decent speed differential I'll pretty much know you'll keep going & get past them so I can brake (if needed) accordingly. Two cars side by side at nearly identical speeds - who knows which one will brake first?
I do agree with the others that a bike massively over the NSL shouldn't control your planning, but thanks for thinking it's a possibility.
c) with possibly a touch of d) if the speed differential was massive when I caught them, bit like the overtake mentioned above that was done while slowing.
As a biker
c) please, it gives me much more space to react if I have come around the corner too fast. Plus if there is a decent speed differential I'll pretty much know you'll keep going & get past them so I can brake (if needed) accordingly. Two cars side by side at nearly identical speeds - who knows which one will brake first?
I do agree with the others that a bike massively over the NSL shouldn't control your planning, but thanks for thinking it's a possibility.
I had my first crack at overtaking since passing my test a few weeks ago, on some country roads yesterday. My approach was 'C'. Just get it over with as soon and safely as possible. I dropped it into 3rd and flew past the Focus in front going about 30mph. They didn't seem to mind, but i was careful to build up lots of speed and pull out early enough to show my intention.
Very fun way of driving
I would go for C again in the situation presented. D seems like a dangerous option.
Very fun way of driving
I would go for C again in the situation presented. D seems like a dangerous option.
The momentum overtake requires commitment to the pass very early - given the presence of potential high-speed on-comers that would require a lot of road.
So sounds like it's a catch and match then pass.
Either way -- you can't make the decision to pass from back at the RAB - might as well get up to a place of view and find out what's going on.
Personally, I think the overtake completed at a gentle cruise rather than WOT is very classy. It's a sign that the driver is totally in control.
So sounds like it's a catch and match then pass.
Either way -- you can't make the decision to pass from back at the RAB - might as well get up to a place of view and find out what's going on.
Personally, I think the overtake completed at a gentle cruise rather than WOT is very classy. It's a sign that the driver is totally in control.
c would be my first choice.
2nd would be the, "give em 5 minutes option."
also, don't be afraid to give the odd quick flash of the main beams.
i'm often on n.s.l roads in the wagon, so "restricted" to 40mph. if someone is quickly approaching from behind in a safe manner, and gives the odd quick flash to let me know, then i'll do my best to aid their pass, as shock horror i reguarly check my mirrors. found that this happens alot when i'm in europe and works well, unless in russia where people just keep coming no matter what!
the problem in the uk is, for some reason if you gave a quick flash of full beams, for some reason for alot of motorists its like a red rag to a bull.
2nd would be the, "give em 5 minutes option."
also, don't be afraid to give the odd quick flash of the main beams.
i'm often on n.s.l roads in the wagon, so "restricted" to 40mph. if someone is quickly approaching from behind in a safe manner, and gives the odd quick flash to let me know, then i'll do my best to aid their pass, as shock horror i reguarly check my mirrors. found that this happens alot when i'm in europe and works well, unless in russia where people just keep coming no matter what!
the problem in the uk is, for some reason if you gave a quick flash of full beams, for some reason for alot of motorists its like a red rag to a bull.
danjama said:
I had my first crack at overtaking since passing my test a few weeks ago, on some country roads yesterday. My approach was 'C'. Just get it over with as soon and safely as possible. I dropped it into 3rd and flew past the Focus in front going about 30mph. They didn't seem to mind, but i was careful to build up lots of speed and pull out early enough to show my intention.
Very fun way of driving
I would go for C again in the situation presented. D seems like a dangerous option.
Congratulations on becoming a qualified driver - and on taking an interest in improving your driving further.Very fun way of driving
I would go for C again in the situation presented. D seems like a dangerous option.
Do you understand the point made by 7db in the post after yours? That if you build up a lot of speed before starting to overtake, you become committed to the overtake very early, because if the car you were overtaking was to brake you would not be able to stop behind it? You should be cautious about having too much speed differential over the car you are overtaking, and be aware of when you are committed to the overtake. Most often, advanced drivers do not increase their speed above that of the car they are going to overtake until they are close behind it and on the other side of the road - however, if you have a low powered car this can make overtakes difficult.
waremark said:
Congratulations on becoming a qualified driver - and on taking an interest in improving your driving further.
Do you understand the point made by 7db in the post after yours? That if you build up a lot of speed before starting to overtake, you become committed to the overtake very early, because if the car you were overtaking was to brake you would not be able to stop behind it? You should be cautious about having too much speed differential over the car you are overtaking, and be aware of when you are committed to the overtake. Most often, advanced drivers do not increase their speed above that of the car they are going to overtake until they are close behind it and on the other side of the road - however, if you have a low powered car this can make overtakes difficult.
Point noted, and I agree it is a good one. Definitely something to be cautious of.Do you understand the point made by 7db in the post after yours? That if you build up a lot of speed before starting to overtake, you become committed to the overtake very early, because if the car you were overtaking was to brake you would not be able to stop behind it? You should be cautious about having too much speed differential over the car you are overtaking, and be aware of when you are committed to the overtake. Most often, advanced drivers do not increase their speed above that of the car they are going to overtake until they are close behind it and on the other side of the road - however, if you have a low powered car this can make overtakes difficult.
And thanks
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