Where can I play with oversteer?
Discussion
MC Bodge said:
First rule: don't suddenly step off the gas.
I'd say the first rule is "don't panic" 
IME losing control on ice/snow/hail at 30mph is completely different from losing control at 60 on standing water or 80-90 in the dry.
I'm sure that 1 hour of tuition is better than nothing, but plenty of seat time with gaps between (to think about what you've learnt) seems to me to be more important.
How about a cheap day at the 'pod or somewhere similar. I'll be going there next month to see if I can put some of theory into practice.
pthelazyjourno said:
Thing I don't like about the wet skidpans is everything is so much slower and easier - a bit like driving on snow.
Yes, it's handy for the *very* basics, but it's a different kettle of fish when the back lets go at 70mph.
As above, I'd go for Car Limits or Don Palmer. Although spending a day at Rockingham is still a giggle.
Yes, it's handy for the *very* basics, but it's a different kettle of fish when the back lets go at 70mph.
As above, I'd go for Car Limits or Don Palmer. Although spending a day at Rockingham is still a giggle.
Also, it's a lot easier to deal with a slide you have deliberately provoked than one you weren't expecting. I quite like the kick plate at Porsche's Silverstone facility, because you don't know which way it is going to go and you don't have an obvious control input to remove. It is still on a low grip surface, though.
MC Bodge said:
It's the same mechanism, just that the scenery is approaching at different rates.
Disagree entirely. The chassis dynamics of a snow drift compared to dry asphalt are completely different. I've never been in a snow drift and had the loaded side suddenly bite and snap the car back the other way like it can do on hot tarmac accompanied with a thump on the head by the b-pillar.The only real way to experience dry tarmac fast oversteer, is to get off the skid pan or snow and do it for real on a track or airfield.
Trtj said:
MC Bodge said:
It's the same mechanism, just that the scenery is approaching at different rates.
Disagree entirely. The chassis dynamics of a snow drift compared to dry asphalt are completely different. I've never been in a snow drift and had the loaded side suddenly bite and snap the car back the other way like it can do on hot tarmac accompanied with a thump on the head by the b-pillar.The only real way to experience dry tarmac fast oversteer, is to get off the skid pan or snow and do it for real on a track or airfield.
For somebody who's never experienced a slide, a low-speed, low-grip example will illustrate what happens and introduce the principles of weight transfer and the need for smoothness. The mechanism is the same.
ps. A sudden increase in grip is even worse on a motorbike!
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 25th July 21:57
RichB said:
Here we go, the Pistonheads argument... I'm more right than you are 
No, not at all. I'm just not in the "all-or-nothing" camp. Any experience is better than no experience. You don't need to go to the extent of inducing a slide in a Porsche 911 on bald tyres at full-chat on a runway with concrete blocks positioned to kill you if you get it wrong in order to get a feel for oversteer.Let's be honest, loss of grip in a road car is more likely to occur in low friction situations, than on warm, dry tarmac.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 25th July 22:00
GavinPearson said:
Hire some time at Bruntingthorpe. You pay by the hour, stay as long as you need. The main thing is to start at slow speeds e.g. 45mph and then limit your progression to higher speeds contingent on you satisfying yourself that the car is under control.
I should hire Don Palmer who uses Bruntingthorpe for his Car Control courses...I firmly disagree (with the OP) that the only relevent experience to high speed break away is high speed. It's quite wrong to suggest that chassis loads will change the nature of breakaway (it will) and that is the point. It is not imho.
Skid pan practice is essential because what you learn at reletively low speed and low cost, there is BALANCE - actually living on the edge of continuous slip and slide and hopefully being able to modulate the throttle to balance against steering to live on the grip available, and keep control and exercising your proprioceptors.
Once you at ease with the slipping and sliding and able to maintain throttle on/forward motion then those basics do cover whatever happens whatever the speed.
If you want to cover very high speed drifting or cornering, then that is what you have to practice. But to drop the simple skid pan techniques as less than valuable is a wrong call imho.
I really believe all motorists and as a minimum, enthusaists should invest in skid pan time. It is invaluable and enables the drivers amongst us to experinece slip or slide before we have to do it in real life, when someone's life maybe at stake. imho.
Skid pan practice is essential because what you learn at reletively low speed and low cost, there is BALANCE - actually living on the edge of continuous slip and slide and hopefully being able to modulate the throttle to balance against steering to live on the grip available, and keep control and exercising your proprioceptors.
Once you at ease with the slipping and sliding and able to maintain throttle on/forward motion then those basics do cover whatever happens whatever the speed.
If you want to cover very high speed drifting or cornering, then that is what you have to practice. But to drop the simple skid pan techniques as less than valuable is a wrong call imho.
I really believe all motorists and as a minimum, enthusaists should invest in skid pan time. It is invaluable and enables the drivers amongst us to experinece slip or slide before we have to do it in real life, when someone's life maybe at stake. imho.
ph123 said:
Once you at ease with the slipping and sliding and able to maintain throttle on/forward motion then those basics do cover whatever happens whatever the speed
Exactly my point previously. ph123 said:
I really believe all motorists and as a minimum, enthusaists should invest in skid pan time. It is invaluable and enables the drivers amongst us to experinece slip or slide before we have to do it in real life, when someone's life maybe at stake. imho.
YesWhen I passed my test in the 90s, I'd go to quiet roundabouts late at night and push my Metro (ahem) beyond its grip limits. That set me off on learning all about how the car behaved when it lost traction. I'd recommend the same now, but I'd suggest doing it in the wet to start with, just circling gently, but increasing speed to see what slides first, then deal with that. Keep practising until you're confident with how the car behaves. Then you can do things like lift off, then immediately apply a big bootfull of throttle to get the rear moving briefly. Don't overdo it though.
However, on a DRY roundabout, even in an incredibly pokey Monaro, once you start going sideways, if you don't get the straightening up bit right after the slide, the car will snap into the kerb in the blink of an eye and wreck an expensive alloy faster than you can say "oh fu..".
However, on a DRY roundabout, even in an incredibly pokey Monaro, once you start going sideways, if you don't get the straightening up bit right after the slide, the car will snap into the kerb in the blink of an eye and wreck an expensive alloy faster than you can say "oh fu..".
Loads of my mates used to go DWYB at Norfolk arena but it looks like they've stopped doing it. Santa Pod DWYB is good but looks fully booked up http://www.dwyb.co.uk/index.html
I just go over to Brands when my mates doing lessons at the drift school and have a play over there
I just go over to Brands when my mates doing lessons at the drift school and have a play over there
Just as another slant on the sideways topic. I spent pretty much all of Friday sideways in the wet at Rye House in a Rotax 2-stroke kart. It is absolutely great fun and really teaches you about the available grip, how to find it and what the rear does (which is try to become the front) pretty much all the time.
I know there are differences between how karts and cars respond, but it was great value sideways fun!
Had to wring out my undies though...yuech, yuk, eeeuuuw etc!
Bert
I know there are differences between how karts and cars respond, but it was great value sideways fun!
Had to wring out my undies though...yuech, yuk, eeeuuuw etc!
Bert
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff