My IAM Experience

[ORD]

The risk, though, is that an "it depends" approach is too complex for most people. A lot of driving can be reduced to quite simple rules, even if they are always subject to some exceptions.

For example, the idea of separating out different activities (e.g. braking and changing gear) is good as a general rule. It is not right all of the time, but neither are all rules.

Another example - dont dip the clutch unless you are changing gear or about to stop. Not always always always right, but it would at least stop idiots putting the clutch down as they go around a corner!

The general standard of driving is so unbelievably low that simple rules would be a great idea for most people.

I think I probably see no more than 2 or 3 cars driven well on small A and B roads when I drive from London to Chipping Camden every couple of weeks. You can spot from a mile off that someone has no interest in (a) being in the right gear, (b) positioning for corners, (c) braking at the right time...etc etc. Ironically, the better drivers are amongst the fastest (and most likely to take slight liberties with speed limits), but I bet they have fewer accidents than the "pootle along at 50mph on whatever part of the road feels easiest" drivers.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

The majority of rules have some logic behind them - the problem comes when the thought and reasoning gets ignored for the simple soundbite.

Someone once said:

In fields of specialized knowledge, we aim to render an account that is plain and simple, yet does no violence to the difficulty of the subject, so that the uninformed reader can understand us while the expert cannot fault us. We try to keep in mind a saying attributed to Einstein—that everything must be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler.

As an example, if you forget how and why speed limits are set and just focus on the number, it's very easy to drive too fast for the conditions but still be within the rules.

[7mike]

ORD said:

The general standard of driving is so unbelievably low that simple rules would be a great idea for most people.

Are driving standards in this country so unbelievably low? Says a lot for every other country then.

We already have lots of simple rules btw; stop at red lights, obey posted speed limits, give way to traffic on the major road etc. As one or two drivers have on occasion chosen not to follow the rules what makes you think drumming more rules into people will make a difference to what they choose to do?

[johnao]

MC Bodge said:

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

There's a similar point in the process of becoming a better driver - the transition from following 'rules', to a much more thinking approach. It's probably more difficult for the pupils to make this transition when apparently so many of the teachers haven't managed it.

Exactly.

That sums up most of the debate on this forum.

There are those who like to rely on rules and there are those who like to question things.

Hear, hear.

[radio man]

R0G said:

StressedDave said:

The thing is, late braking (and whilst there might be a degree of discussion as to that really is and I don't mean slamming the brakes on to bring in the ABS as I'm sure the OP doesn't either) is not a 'bad drive practice', if it is part of the systematic plan and IME of Police Driving, is pretty much the default position because it is the method which provides the shortest elapsed time between hazards, which is the unwritten raison d'etre of RoadCraft - you have to get to the incident as quickly as possible while remaining safe on not reliant of luck or the abilities of other road users.

Text is about the worst form of describing how to drive 'proper, like' and without being in the car with the OP, seeing what his instructor saw and what the OP was doing in the first place, we're really arguing about semantics and over whose interpretation of his words is right.

Comparing police response driving to civilian advanced driving is pointless - they MUST be separated as the end purposes for each is different

So keeping to civvy RC based driving please give a response to what I said

If I am not mistaken an IAM pass is equivalent to a police class 4 licence so there is no way on earth that the IAM can be compaired to a police advanced (class 1 pursuit) driver

[ORD]

7mike said:

ORD said:

The general standard of driving is so unbelievably low that simple rules would be a great idea for most people.

Are driving standards in this country so unbelievably low? Says a lot for every other country then.

We already have lots of simple rules btw; stop at red lights, obey posted speed limits, give way to traffic on the major road etc. As one or two drivers have on occasion chosen not to follow the rules what makes you think drumming more rules into people will make a difference to what they choose to do?

By "standards" in that context, I mean ability and judgment, rather than compliance or non compliance with laws and/or acute safety. Most drivers are reasonably safe (because they are reasonably cautious and obey the law) but pretty poor technically and in terms of road positioning, speed awareness, etc.

I do not suggest rules in the sense of laws (like the rules you mention), simply clear guidance that takes the form of general statements of principle - i.e. you should normally try to do x.

[7mike]

ORD said:

By "standards" in that context, I mean ability and judgment, rather than compliance or non compliance with laws and/or acute safety. Most drivers are reasonably safe (because they are reasonably cautious and obey the law) but pretty poor technically and in terms of road positioning, speed awareness, etc.

I do not suggest rules in the sense of laws (like the rules you mention), simply clear guidance that takes the form of general statements of principle - i.e. you should normally try to do x.

Earlier this week I was training a company driver who had previously received training whilst working in France; he kept getting told off for not changing down through the gears when he was braking The more I'm involved in driver training the more I find myself agreeing with Von it's the outcome that's more important. There's no doubt you & I would agree on positioning etc. but I prefer a trainee to figure out what's best for them (unlike the French fella). As for Joe public; we know most will consider licence acquisition as having reached their goal & will probably never consider the possibility that they would benefit from further training.

[Flibble]

ORD said:

Another example - dont dip the clutch unless you are changing gear or about to stop. Not always always always right, but it would at least stop idiots putting the clutch down as they go around a corner!

People do that?!

[Craikeybaby]

I got the membership renewal request through from the IAM, so I thought I'd bring this thread to a conclusion.

A couple of months ago I got in touch with the local IAM group, who proved to be most unhelpful, saying that because I joined as a fast track member they wouldn't be able to help me and that I should call "London" and pay them more money. So I got back in touch with the London office, who had sent me to the local group in the first place and was told that the local group would be able to help me - which they insisted they wouldn't. I'd heard from friends that the local IAM group were a bit of a nightmare to deal with and one of the reasons I was looking at the fast track option.

After once again getting caught up in the IAM's poor organisation/comminication I've decided not to renew my membership. Even though I haven't passed the IAM test, I feel I've become a better driver over the last 12 months and have continued to improve since the test, working on the feedback I recieved.

When I started my advanced driving journey my only goal was to improve my driving skills, which I feel I have accomplished, but due to them being a nightmare to deal with I don't think I can reccomend the IAM as an organisation.

[ORD]

The recent BRAKE inspired nonsense has put me off for life.

[trashbat]

That's a shame on both counts, but not altogether surprising. I had a falling out of my own that I won't go into.

Can I suggest you sign up for ADUK? There's not always much discussion but the days they sporadically organise are excellent and everything the IAM ought to be about.

[R0G]

Can you go to another IAM group nearby?

Is that nasty group saying that they do not accept full members from elsewhere? - if they do then they are going against the ethos of the IAM and HQ need to be informed

Now as you are not joining them - which group is it?

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

It's no excuse, but Fast Track candidates are a rare breed and it's not altogether surprising that the local groups are unsure how to handle it. You'd have hoped head office would have sorted things though.

I'm organising an ADUK driving day in the Brecon Beacons at the end of August - details are in the members-only section over there. Why not come along and see what representatives of the wider Advanced Driving community have to offer?

[Glosphil]

From the IAM web-site
"If you’re really keen on becoming an advanced driver, we offer a faster route to taking the test. Our Fast Track programme condenses weeks of training into two half days intensive one-to-one road-training sessions with a professional instructor. Your training and the test cost £249 which includes IAM membership."

If you joined via Fast Track the training is handled directly by the IAM. Why didn't you take the test?

Local groups have no involvement in "Fast Track" and are not informed of any Fast Track candidates in 'their' area. However, as membership secretary of a local IAM group, I would welcome any IAM member (Fast track or not) who wants to join our group. They just supply their IAM membership number and pay the £12 annual subscription and they are in.

Edited by Glosphil on Tuesday 24th June 02:16

[Craikeybaby]

I did take the test, after a no show, then 2 reschedulings by the examiner. I failed the test and was advised by the IAM to get some more training with my local group, then to retake the test.

When I was looking at options for advanced driver training I had misgivings about the IAM, but was convinced to give them a chance, but from now on I'll stick to things like ADUK.

[R0G]

Craikeybaby said:

I did take the test, after a no show, then 2 reschedulings by the examiner. I failed the test and was advised by the IAM to get some more training with my local group, then to retake the test.

AH - I got this ....
The route you took does not give the local group their financial cut which is why they are resistant

[Craikeybaby]

I gathered that was the case, but as a customer wanting to improve their driving it was frustrating being caught up in the internal politics of the organisation.

[R0G]

Craikeybaby said:

I gathered that was the case, but as a customer wanting to improve their driving it was frustrating being caught up in the internal politics of the organisation.

Mt group would have welcomed you providing you coughed up the local subs = £15 for the year

[Glosphil]

Craikeybaby said:

I gathered that was the case, but as a customer wanting to improve their driving it was frustrating being caught up in the internal politics of the organisation.

Hardly 'local politics'. You deliberately choose a method that did not involve the local group but expected them to help you when your chosen path didn't work for you. As I said in my previous post if you had phoned 'my' group and then paid the £15 annual subscription you would have been able to join the group and avail yourself of assistance from one of our observers to enable you to reach the necessary standard to pass the IAM test.

The groups are financially independent of the IAM except for receiving a low proportion of the SFL fee but receive nothing from Fast Track (and have no involvement). The IAM sometimes will respond to a group asking for a contribution to the costs of an activity that publicises the IAM. When the IAM raised the cost of Skill For Life from £99 to £139 none of the increase went to the local groups.

Our group regularly receives phone calls from people not wishing to pay the SFL fee but wanting us to help them for free - "Can you help me to improve my driving just a bit"! I even had a phone call this week asking the group to help a motorist to learn how to drive on the 'wrong' side of the road before his August road trip in France. I didn't fancy doing that on the A38 or M5!

There will always be problems with 'customer' perceptions in an organisation that is run on commercial lines but relies on volunteers to provide a large part of its services.

[trashbat]

I can't agree with that. Why should a customer, and they are customers because they pay, be expected to accept arbitrary splits between group and national? As far as you as a customer are concerned, you pay your money and you deal with the IAM.

Whether the group or franchise or whatever it is gets the right amount of money from head office is an internal problem that they shouldn't be leaking out into how they behave towards members of the public. I understand that it's volunteers and amateurs but if anything that makes it harder to excuse.