My IAM Experience
Discussion
Yet driving up and slamming the brakes on is far more in keeping with the principles and methods of RoadCraft (I've never read 'how to be a better driver' or whatever the IAM is calling its manual) than what the OP is being asked to do.
In any case the efficacy of lifting off early in order to create observation time is only a valid technique if there is vision in order to observe. I would argue that in many cases in town, vision is only going to open up very close to the hazard point. Under such circumstances all lifting off is doing is delaying the time when you can actually make a decision as to what you're going to do and is therefore:
a) Failing to make progress
b) Inconveniencing other drivers by going slower than is necessary
Neither of which are particularly advanced traits.
Some hazards, e.g. speed limit changes, can, on occasion, be dealt with with deceleration sense and engine braking, but those where it is possible that you will have to come to a stop as the worst-case outcome tend to work better under the default method currently employed by the OP.
In any case the efficacy of lifting off early in order to create observation time is only a valid technique if there is vision in order to observe. I would argue that in many cases in town, vision is only going to open up very close to the hazard point. Under such circumstances all lifting off is doing is delaying the time when you can actually make a decision as to what you're going to do and is therefore:
a) Failing to make progress
b) Inconveniencing other drivers by going slower than is necessary
Neither of which are particularly advanced traits.
Some hazards, e.g. speed limit changes, can, on occasion, be dealt with with deceleration sense and engine braking, but those where it is possible that you will have to come to a stop as the worst-case outcome tend to work better under the default method currently employed by the OP.
Well I'm with Dave on this one. We know he doesn't literally mean slam on the brakes at the last moment. But I suspect that the OP is being taken in the direction of some mis-guided "lift off really early and magically be at the right speed without using the brakes" mantra which is just a perversion of what is sensible and normal in the name of "advanced".
And whatever you do, don't change down and continue to reduce speed either!
Forgive me if I have overstated the case. As I remember another of the trite AD phrases...gears are for going and brakes are for slowing.
Bert
And whatever you do, don't change down and continue to reduce speed either!
Forgive me if I have overstated the case. As I remember another of the trite AD phrases...gears are for going and brakes are for slowing.
Bert
R0G said:
No its not !!
RC says a lot about progress but does not advocate bad driving practices such as you are desribing
The thing is, late braking (and whilst there might be a degree of discussion as to that really is and I don't mean slamming the brakes on to bring in the ABS as I'm sure the OP doesn't either) is not a 'bad drive practice', if it is part of the systematic plan and IME of Police Driving, is pretty much the default position because it is the method which provides the shortest elapsed time between hazards, which is the unwritten raison d'etre of RoadCraft - you have to get to the incident as quickly as possible while remaining safe on not reliant of luck or the abilities of other road users.RC says a lot about progress but does not advocate bad driving practices such as you are desribing
Text is about the worst form of describing how to drive 'proper, like' and without being in the car with the OP, seeing what his instructor saw and what the OP was doing in the first place, we're really arguing about semantics and over whose interpretation of his words is right.
StressedDave said:
The thing is, late braking (and whilst there might be a degree of discussion as to that really is and I don't mean slamming the brakes on to bring in the ABS as I'm sure the OP doesn't either) is not a 'bad drive practice', if it is part of the systematic plan and IME of Police Driving, is pretty much the default position because it is the method which provides the shortest elapsed time between hazards, which is the unwritten raison d'etre of RoadCraft - you have to get to the incident as quickly as possible while remaining safe on not reliant of luck or the abilities of other road users.
Text is about the worst form of describing how to drive 'proper, like' and without being in the car with the OP, seeing what his instructor saw and what the OP was doing in the first place, we're really arguing about semantics and over whose interpretation of his words is right.
Comparing police response driving to civilian advanced driving is pointless - they MUST be separated as the end purposes for each is differentText is about the worst form of describing how to drive 'proper, like' and without being in the car with the OP, seeing what his instructor saw and what the OP was doing in the first place, we're really arguing about semantics and over whose interpretation of his words is right.
So keeping to civvy RC based driving please give a response to what I said
IMO, as usual, "it depends". What is the objective of the drive?
If you're a police responder, then why are you wasting someone's time in an emergency by slowly bleeding off speed when you could be going at the speed limit for as long as possible?
If you're in no particular hurry, then why are you wasting fuel and your brakes by maintaining throttle when you can see you will obviously have to slow down?
The objective of an exam drive is 'drive urgently but safely', so probably somewhere in between.
One thing: I don't like 'brake lights just for a warning' in a scenario where the braking is likely to sufficiently increase. I crashed my bike into the back of someone in part due to this. Brake lights are binary and when you do come to slow down quickly, there is no warning - boy who cried wolf.
If you're a police responder, then why are you wasting someone's time in an emergency by slowly bleeding off speed when you could be going at the speed limit for as long as possible?
If you're in no particular hurry, then why are you wasting fuel and your brakes by maintaining throttle when you can see you will obviously have to slow down?
The objective of an exam drive is 'drive urgently but safely', so probably somewhere in between.
One thing: I don't like 'brake lights just for a warning' in a scenario where the braking is likely to sufficiently increase. I crashed my bike into the back of someone in part due to this. Brake lights are binary and when you do come to slow down quickly, there is no warning - boy who cried wolf.
OP, it's not easy to work out what your instructor might have meant - ask them! - but I suspect the aim is to get some of the prep for a junction out of the way earlier in order to enhance your observation and decision making as you approach.
Specifically, getting off the throttle early and already covering the brake - with neither having to slow you down if you don't want - means the footwork is done further back down the road, simple as that. Sometimes you can overthink this stuff.
Specifically, getting off the throttle early and already covering the brake - with neither having to slow you down if you don't want - means the footwork is done further back down the road, simple as that. Sometimes you can overthink this stuff.
R0G said:
So keeping to civvy RC based driving please give a response to what I said
He did. He didn't discuss the point about lifting off to slow down being a skill that reflects on the judgement of the driver, (so isn't necessarily a good idea to use all the time), but he did point out that the main 'real' reason for lifting off to slow down, that of gaining extra time to observe and form a plan, doesn't apply to any significant degree in many urban situations.One thing we've not discussed in relation to this is that the OP was being encouraged to use a higher gear than he would otherwise have chosen, and he mentioned how using 4th at 30 mph is only couple of hundred revs over idle. That being the case there'd be precious little engine braking when he lifted off - it'd make a heck of a lot more sense if he was in 3rd or 2nd at that speed - so given he'll be needing to use the brakes why not make a feature of doing so, and plan it in accordingly.
AnotherGareth said:
He did. He didn't discuss the point about lifting off to slow down being a skill that reflects on the judgement of the driver, (so isn't necessarily a good idea to use all the time), but he did point out that the main 'real' reason for lifting off to slow down, that of gaining extra time to observe and form a plan, doesn't apply to any significant degree in many urban situations.
I was referring to the planning etc before slowing down not after slowing downagreed that many situations require an immediate need to brake
Thanks for the input - it has helped me to get it clearer in my head.
I'm back from my lesson and feel much better about it now. I discussed it with my instructor before we set off and put it into practice in the first part of the drive. It was more about being prepared for the hazard well in advance, but being prepared to show brake lights earlier. If anything it's more like what I was originally doing, but maybe initiating it slightly earlier and modifying slightly according to the road/traffic conditions.
I feel like I've improved a lot over the course of the lesson, so need to get my test booked now!
I'm back from my lesson and feel much better about it now. I discussed it with my instructor before we set off and put it into practice in the first part of the drive. It was more about being prepared for the hazard well in advance, but being prepared to show brake lights earlier. If anything it's more like what I was originally doing, but maybe initiating it slightly earlier and modifying slightly according to the road/traffic conditions.
I feel like I've improved a lot over the course of the lesson, so need to get my test booked now!
I suspect that there is a certain degree of 'preference' from the instructor. In my experience, the examiner will be likely to be more keen on making good progress. You should stop at a 'Stop', but be prepared to give way at a 'Give Way' and only stopping if necessary (eg. I was complimented on my observationa and 'fairly brisk' get-away from a Give Way on my bike IAM test 
)
If I were you I'd do a bit of reversing and parking practice in a local car park to improve accuracy and confidence. I often do a bit of manoeuvring practice in a local DIY emporium car park on my bike and find it quite useful.
)Craikeybaby said:
To take a break from that I also practiced manoeuvring, last week I was told that to improve reversing round a corner I should aim to keep the kerb in the middle of my nearside wing mirror, but dip the clutch and pause to look around as I start the turn, mid turn and as I straighten up. I tried this a few times at different places, but couldn't get the hang of it, my nearside rear wheel kept connecting with the kerb.
I recall being a bit flustered when trying to learn to do it to pass my driving test at 17 (it was a similar experience learning to do the bike U-turn for the test), but I don't really have to think much about performing a 'reverse around a corner' these days , certainly not having to think about rules for whereabouts the kerb appears in my mirror. Why wouldn't a driver just do it at a steady, sensible speed whilst maintaining an awareness of surroundings?If I were you I'd do a bit of reversing and parking practice in a local car park to improve accuracy and confidence. I often do a bit of manoeuvring practice in a local DIY emporium car park on my bike and find it quite useful.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 25th July 21:54
R0G said:
After practice you can do a steep down hill left hand turn in 1st gear without being on the brakes when changing into 1st - it takes good planning and early braking especially if another is behind
After even more practise you'll be able to smoothly down-change under braking, being able to modulate both throttle and brake which will remove the need to contrive the above scenario and thus remove the need to annoy/confuse the person behind with your extremely early braking almost to a standstill, before getting off the brakes, accelerating under gravity and shifting into first .... and possibly getting muddled and crashing because you failed to brake sufficiently before you rushed to change gear Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 25th July 21:36
MC Bodge said:
After even more practise you'll be able to smoothly down-change under braking, being able to modulate both throttle and brake which will remove the need to contrive the above scenario and thus remove the need to annoy/confuse the person behind with your extremely early braking almost to a standstill, before getting off the brakes, accelerating under gravity and shifting into first .... and possibly getting muddled and crashing because you failed to brake sufficiently before you rushed to change gear
NEVER had anyone nearly crash into my rear doing what I doEdited by MC Bodge on Thursday 25th July 21:36
The method you describe does not have the car in perfect balance
R0G said:
NEVER had anyone nearly crash into my rear doing what I do
The method you describe does not have the car in perfect balance
Your second statement is simply wrong - just because you choose not to use heel and toe does not mean the car is no longer in balance.The method you describe does not have the car in perfect balance
Your method also has the disadvantage that in order to achieve the gear change, you need to slow down beyond the speed required to negotiate the corner as once you stop braking and disconnect the clutch the car starts to accelerate again under gravity. Possibly something that would confuse and inconvenience the driver behind and puts an unneccesary time pressure on the gear change as you need to get it done before the acceleration raises the speed beyond the desired speed.
I'm not disupting that it can be done this way, merely that it's not necessarily the most efficient, comfortable, repeatable or efficient way of doing it.
R0G said:
After practice you can do a steep down hill left hand turn in 1st gear without being on the brakes when changing into 1st - it takes good planning and early braking especially if another is behind
But why bother? Even Roadcraft allows BGOL for low speed down hill turns and Chris Gilbert (of "Roadcraft - the video" fame) suggests any low speed BGOL is acceptable (if I understood his latest DVDs).Is the balance of the vehicle at those speeds really going to be an issue?
Vaux said:
R0G said:
After practice you can do a steep down hill left hand turn in 1st gear without being on the brakes when changing into 1st - it takes good planning and early braking especially if another is behind
But why bother? Even Roadcraft allows BGOL for low speed down hill turns and Chris Gilbert (of "Roadcraft - the video" fame) suggests any low speed BGOL is acceptable (if I understood his latest DVDs).Is the balance of the vehicle at those speeds really going to be an issue?
I never said that doing it any other way was wrong
All I said was that I could do it a certain way
CG demonstrates how both are ok which is fine
Surprises me how not reading a post carefully and/or adding something to it which is not there gets another to the wrong conclusion which they then comment on !!
All I said was that I could do it a certain way
CG demonstrates how both are ok which is fine
Surprises me how not reading a post carefully and/or adding something to it which is not there gets another to the wrong conclusion which they then comment on !!
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