Can you be too big to heel and toe?

[devnull]

I'm a fairly large chap - >> 6"2' and 16 and a bit stone, with a 55/45 bias towards my leg length. I've studied lots of videos, practiced and there is no way in hell that I can heel and toe in my MK2 MX5 (or any other of my manual cars that I've driven).

Is this normal? I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking, but not in the way I see on videos.

Am I alone in this??

[Benbay001]

devnull said:

I'm a fairly large chap - >> 6"2' and 16 and a bit stone, with a 55/45 bias towards my leg length. I've studied lots of videos, practiced and there is no way in hell that I can heel and toe in my MK2 MX5 (or any other of my manual cars that I've driven).

Is this normal? I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking, but not in the way I see on videos.

Am I alone in this??

I could never heel and toe. I would always press the brake far to hard.
Now i dont get the option (auto)

[SK425]

devnull said:

I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking

If you are rev matching a down shift under any amount of braking, how are you not doing H&T already? (I presume when you say "light braking" you still mean your right foot is operating the brake pedal?)

[james_gt3rs]

SK425 said:

If you are rev matching a down shift under any amount of braking, how are you not doing H&T already? (I presume when you say "light braking" you still mean your right foot is operating the brake pedal?)

And in fact it's harder to heel and toe with light braking than heavy braking!

[devnull]

SK425 said:

devnull said:

I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking

If you are rev matching a down shift under any amount of braking, how are you not doing H&T already? (I presume when you say "light braking" you still mean your right foot is operating the brake pedal?)

So to clarify - approaching junction or roundabout, foot off accelerator, begin deceleration, clutch down, blip throttle to match and change down to lower gear, use increased engine braking to slow further, brake to warn others and bring vehicle to a stop.

What I can't do is brake and move my feet in the typical heel and toe fashion

[SK425]

devnull said:

SK425 said:

devnull said:

I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking

If you are rev matching a down shift under any amount of braking, how are you not doing H&T already? (I presume when you say "light braking" you still mean your right foot is operating the brake pedal?)

So to clarify - approaching junction or roundabout, foot off accelerator, begin deceleration, clutch down, blip throttle to match and change down to lower gear, use increased engine braking to slow further, brake to warn others and bring vehicle to a stop.

OK. I wouldn't describe that as rev matching a gear change on braking. That's rev matching a gear change before braking .

devnull said:

What I can't do is brake and move my feet in the typical heel and toe fashion

The only thing I can think of to suggest is the standard advice and what you've probably already tried: sitting in the car on the drive with the engine running, pressing the brake, and trying to find a foot position from which you can control blipping/raising the throttle. It might involve rotating you ankle, or rolling your foot to the side or something else. Your foot position on the brake pedal for H&T is unlikely to be the same as your foot position when just braking but obviously it needs to be solid enough to operate the brakes properly. If you've tried all that and you just can't find a foot position that works then maybe it's not going to happen.

Some people claim to be able to H&T in just about any car but I think they're wizards .

[mazdatezzer]

Can't h&t at all in my Octy vRS diesel 'cos the engine management cuts power while you're braking. Think it's the same with all VAG cars. Too clever for their own good.

[XJ Flyer]

Having grown up driving old constant mesh trucks the combination of pedal spacing and sensitive air brakes taught me that heel and toeing ( IE braking and rev matching downshifts at the same time ) with a car is pointless.Gearchanging including rev matching,and braking are best kept as seperate operations.If you can't downshift any vehicle using that method then the approach speed is too high.

[BertBert]

XJ Flyer said:

Having grown up driving old constant mesh trucks the combination of pedal spacing and sensitive air brakes taught me that heel and toeing ( IE braking and rev matching downshifts at the same time ) with a car is pointless.Gearchanging including rev matching,and braking are best kept as seperate operations.If you can't downshift any vehicle using that method then the approach speed is too high.

Shouldn't we have a moratorium on this debate We've done it so many times before. Let's just focus on helping the OP on the how and ignore the why.
Bert

[Fonzey]

I've actually got some heel and toe shoes... I can only do it with one pair of shoes as they're nice and wide. Any other pair and I need to push too far on the brake to "reach" the amount of blip that I need/want.

[davepoth]

There are two extremes of H&T - from pivoting the whole foot around the big toe so the heel goes to the accelerator pedal, to rocking the foot sideways so the whole left side of your right foot stays on the brake pedal. Anywhere on that spectrum is still heel & toe.

It's got a lot to do with foot size more than anything I suppose, and I'm guessing you don't have small feet. Silly question, but have you tried doing it in a bigger car? or even a van?

[Crippo]

Its easy just practice on every braking zone.

You are probably over thinking it, just dont push with your toes so hard weight the middle of your foot so that when you flick the throttle you dont push further on the brake pedal.

[Toltec]

I couldn't h&t in a MK1 or MK2 MX5 either, I am only 5'11" and the wheel is too close to the pedals to allow me get my foot at the right angle to be able to press both pedals. To get to the brake my knee has to be to the side of the wheel rather than behind which makes it anatomically impossible to get my foot in the same plane as the pedals.

[t3speed]

Lots of people are too focused on the movement of the H&T and how glorious it is, with all the gifs online it would be safe to assume so. If you're able to blip the throttle successfully without your toe on the brake and heel on the throttle, but rather other positions of your foot you find comfortable, it should be effective.

Then again, I've never seen any use of rev matching unless I am hard on the brakes, in that case, I've always found it easier to reach for the throttle.

[Zombie]

devnull said:

I'm a fairly large chap - >> 6"2' and 16 and a bit stone, with a 55/45 bias towards my leg length. I've studied lots of videos, practiced and there is no way in hell that I can heel and toe in my MK2 MX5 (or any other of my manual cars that I've driven).

Is this normal? I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking, but not in the way I see on videos.

Am I alone in this??

6"7' and size 13. I don't have any problems 'heel and toeing' although I use the side of the my foot rather than my heel.

[pingu393]

I would have thought that a broad foot would be an advantage. My foot is too narrow and I only have about 10mm of each pedal under my foot. Any pedal pressure and my foot slides off one of the pedals.

I rev-match like you do instead.

[edited from cm to mm (my feet aren't that wide )]

Edited by pingu393 on Wednesday 2nd October 21:30

[MC Bodge]

mazdatezzer said:

Can't h&t at all in my Octy vRS diesel 'cos the engine management cuts power while you're braking. Think it's the same with all VAG cars. Too clever for their own good.

Well, I must have superpowers, because I've been heel-toe'ing an Audi A3 TDI rental car I've had for the past few days. It was actually one of the easier cars I've done it in due to the 'organ pedal' accelerator.

FWIW, left-foot braking did appear to cut boost when I tried it as an experiment, but blipping the throttle under braking allowed the revs to climb to allow rev matching and smooth, brisk progress through East Anglia and the Scottish Borders alike....

devnull said:

I'm a fairly large chap - >> 6"2' and 16 and a bit stone, with a 55/45 bias towards my leg length. I've studied lots of videos, practiced and there is no way in hell that I can heel and toe in my MK2 MX5 (or any other of my manual cars that I've driven).

Is this normal? I'm perfectly capable of rev-matching on downshifts and can even do it on deceleration and light braking, but not in the way I see on videos.

Am I alone in this??

It's not black magic, but it takes practice to learn to 'heel-toe' smoothly and as second nature. I don't use my heel and toe, I use the ball of the foot on the brake and the side of the foot on the accelerator.

You need to get used to rotating the foot/ankle sideways to blip the accelerator whilst maintaining the required pressure on the brake pedal. It also helps if you firmly squeeze the brakes on (and off) rather than stamping on them.

It can even be done in a modern Ford, Vauxhall or VAG car with their over-assisted brakes, despite what some people might say.

ps. Flat, smooth-soled shoes help

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 3rd October 21:31

[Sloan85]

Try to blip the throttle with the outside of your foot. Toes on the brake and the rotate foot outwards to blip throttle.

It was easy in my old civic but harder in my fiesta due to the very light brake feel.

[BaronVonVaderham]

I tried to learn it in my modern road car but found it nigh on impossible due to the over-servoed brakes. Have since acquired a 21 year racing Mini and in this it's almost impossible not to H&T due to the pedal postions (and the fact that if you don't, downshifts are horrific). Practising sat stationary was what made it click for me - you need to be able to do it on the move without really thinking about where your feet are. Am going to try some stationary practise with the Clio and see how I get on. OP: am also tall, all legs and have flippers for feet

[MC Bodge]

BaronVonVaderham said:

I tried to learn it in my modern road car but found it nigh on impossible due to the over-servoed brakes

It won't be impossible (unless there is some sort of throttle-brake interlock), it will just take a lot of practice to develop the 'feel'. I'm not exactly a ballet dancer, but, having persevered, I can do it in the "over-servoed" cars mentioned above.

Once you can do it in one "over-servo'd" modern car, you'll find that you can do it in most cars, if you can get your feet onto the pedals. Big feet would be an advantage.