Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?

[SK425]

waremark said:

Controversially, I think it is quite helpful for drivers to learn to implement the System before they decide whether to adopt it consistently in their own driving.

Is that controversial? How can you decide whether to adopt any new technique into your driving before you've practised it enough to be comfortable using it and played with it enough to find out whether/where/how you feel it helps?

[25NAD90TUL]

p1esk said:

After a lot of thinking (by 'eck, it was hard work: limited resources y'see!) I eventually adopted TripleS as a username for joining PH. It means swift, smooth, safe, though I soon got into trouble with VH for having them in the wrong order. He doesn't miss much, that guy.

BTW, look in again at ADUK sometime. The pong really isn't that bad.

I look in regularly at ADUK, I always said there was a lot of good stuff there but it takes work to extract it. At one time I did sign up to re-register but then had some insulting comment made here by Martin so I emailed him back and said 'let's forget it' or something similar. I did feel badly done to there, I wanted to be the beginner friendly member and try to help beginners as I felt that the forum wasn't beginner friendly, I know I made some people think over there about their attitude to newcomers, I think Cholmondely Walner and ROG knew what I was trying to do. If I'd been allowed to just get on with it and attempt to help novices it might have been a rewarding experience.

As an example of how it could never work read back in this thread where someone posted a comment along the lines of me being in a clinic or something. It can hurt that kind of thing, obviously I wouldn't post anything if I didn't think I knew something about the subject. If someone joins up anytime soon with the username of 'Ayatollah, Napolean, Moses or Adolph Hitler' then likely it'll be me, mind you I wouldn't want to hide my identity that would be wrong to me, it would only ever be 'Separation-Master' but no I'll just remain a 'guest' who reads and doesn't post. Thanks though for the thought.

[25NAD90TUL]

Craikeybaby said:

Why is it wrong to have learnt H&T before the IPSGA method?

Thanks for asking this, it causes a lot of contention with my forum personality.

In this area I have to say that it is complete dogma on my part. My ADI was a former Police AD instructor here and in the USA. I used to H&T all the time (I banger raced before being of age to drive on-road) my instructor basically gave me a big b******ing over this and said I was NEVER to do this on the road. When I'd read the copy of Roadcraft he gave to me I realised why, because it is considered unsafe by roadcraft followers.

This stuck in my brain and I can't get away from it, in this respect I am guilty of being dogmatic. I admit this regarding H&T, I was told NO then I read that it was bad form in Police driving and I took it on board. I also have seen H&T go badly wrong at a F1 midgets meeting in the early 80s, the guy posted and had to be cut free and lost both legs from the knee down, also in these forums I feel it is wrong to encourage novices to try to develop the technique on road, when mastered sure no problem, I can do it very well, also having got good at separation it's in my nature to not overlap two controls, to overlap a third is totally anathema to me. Dogmatic? Yeah OK in that respect yes guilty as charged!

Edited to add, as far as IPSGA or to us older members the system is concerned H&T is a complete no-no, see my quote earlier from an AD manual. People who drive rigidly to the system will consider it 'fussy' and tbqh I feel it is unnecessary f***ing about. Sorry but that's me, also I'm a great crash box driver and don't even feel it necessary in those circumstances, I guess it's case of not f***ing about with too many controls at once which is a premiss of the system. I know I'll get slated for this post and won't be arguing about it, say what you will, it's just me this one, you can do it all you want.

Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Tuesday 7th January 16:27

[25NAD90TUL]

I am neither a current IAM observer or a driving instructor, nor am I a member of any driving organisations whatsoever, I don't tell people how to drive or criticise peoples driving period. Any views stated here are regarding my own driving.

Furthermore I have now decided to go along with some here and say that I am completely fundamentalist and follow Roadcraft to the letter wherever I can, if that is the role I have slipped into here then so be it!

Roadcraft/IPSGA/the system is a great way to drive and a great thing to learn after passing the basic test. I recommend IAM and RoSPA/RoADAR for first stage Advanced Driving. After this I am not in a position to recommend any courses because I don't know what they are.

Roadcraft style advanced driving? I recommend it, interested parties should try it sometime.

Somebody bring me a vehicle to restore, I'm spending too much time online currently!

[25NAD90TUL]

MC Bodge said:

^This has been suggested before...

I really can't quite work out what Mr 25NAD90TUL is about, why he bothers to write these long sermons in the style of a street evangelist or what he is looking for.

Ps. I can't believe that this thread is still going! (Okay, I can, the Advanced Driving forum often does this)

I love you too sweetheart.

Bodge I'm trying to fight the corner of IAM and Roadcraft, isn't that obvious? Perhaps a novice may get switched on to further training as a result of my recommending it, if one person improves their safety and awareness then it's worth the hundreds of comments like yours that I have to wade through.

No wish to fall out with you whatsoever I don't know you from Adam apart from on the net and I'm sure you are a great guy in reality as I am too. I'm not looking for anything but trying to post stuff that may make a novice think 'oh I'm gonna try AD' I'm going to be recommending the system until I see something better. Any suggestions MC? Haven't seen any yet.

[SK425]

25NAD90TUL said:

also in these forums I feel it is wrong to encourage novices to try to develop the technique on road, when mastered sure no problem

What do you mean by 'novices'? Novices to driving? Novices to AD?

Where else does one develop the technique? You can't become a master without practise. I practised H&T on the road (still do - I wouldn't call myself a master at all). There's all the usual caveats and advice when you first give it a go (do it somewhere quiet, give yourself plenty of time and space so when you fluff it you have time to sort it out comfortably, that sort of thing) but the road is where I drive my car - where else am I going to practise?

25NAD90TUL said:

People who drive rigidly to the system will consider it 'fussy' and tbqh I feel it is unnecessary f***ing about.

The System I am familiar with, as well as valuing rev matching, is open to overlapping braking and gear changing. From the sound of it my familiarity with the System is somewhat more recent than yours. Do you get the impression the System has, over time, become less rigid on the question of overlapping?

[25NAD90TUL]

SK425 said:

The System I am familiar with, as well as valuing rev matching, is open to overlapping braking and gear changing. From the sound of it my familiarity with the System is somewhat more recent than yours. Do you get the impression the System has, over time, become less rigid on the question of overlapping?

I took an IAM test most recently in 2012. I'm open to overlapping where necessary, for example I'm not prepared to rear end a vehicle because I might overlap. Rev-matching I'm a master at, years of crash box driving. To me rev matching isn't related to BGOL unless it's H&T rev matching.

The big two are still as hot on BGOL as ever. If you want a good score on test I recommend that you don't BGOL, if you're gaining speed after a down change on an gradient I recommend secondary braking. A rear end shunt might make you fail.

[25NAD90TUL]

SK425 said:

25NAD90TUL said:

also in these forums I feel it is wrong to encourage novices to try to develop the technique on road, when mastered sure no problem

What do you mean by 'novices'? Novices to driving? Novices to AD?

Where else does one develop the technique?

Novices who have only recently passed DSA.

For people who are accomplished drivers I have no problem with it, although I recommend developing on a Banger track or a private track or large car park, industrial estate at night, that kind of thing. Somewhere where you won't hit anything if it goes wrong. In my experience people who are trying to develop H&T often look at the pedals not the road ahead.

[25NAD90TUL]

SK425 said:

waremark said:

Controversially, I think it is quite helpful for drivers to learn to implement the System before they decide whether to adopt it consistently in their own driving.

Is that controversial? How can you decide whether to adopt any new technique into your driving before you've practised it enough to be comfortable using it and played with it enough to find out whether/where/how you feel it helps?

I agree 100% with this point.

[25NAD90TUL]

If anyone does have HTBABD I'd be interested to know what that says regarding BGOL. I had one but gave it away, I did read it but frankly I thought it was rubbish and just worked from memory and Roadcraft. Can't recall what it said on the subject.

[25NAD90TUL]

p1esk said:

VH. He doesn't miss much, that guy.

After reading thousands of VH's input I am 100% convinced that VH is female, from the tone and way the wording comes across, it makes no difference to me whatever, in fact I highly rate some women drivers, they tend not to think they're Sterling Moss, like most men do.

VH if you see this, please don't take offense, or feel the need to state one way or the other, the ambiguity adds to the mystique!

Von Hosen owns these forums!

[SK425]

25NAD90TUL said:

I took an IAM test most recently in 2012. I'm open to overlapping where necessary, for example I'm not prepared to rear end a vehicle because I might overlap. Rev-matching I'm a master at, years of crash box driving. To me rev matching isn't related to BGOL unless it's H&T rev matching.

It's strongly related isn't it? Facilitating rev matching (without the need to be able to H&T) usually features fairly high on the list of advantages of separating braking and gear changing.

25NAD90TUL said:

The big two are still as hot on BGOL as ever. If you want a good score on test I recommend that you don't BGOL, if you're gaining speed after a down change on an gradient I recommend secondary braking. A rear end shunt might make you fail.

My understanding from the training I've had from the big two is that that is one scenario where BGOL would not be frowned upon, and indeed preferred to secondary braking (and the speed increase that precedes it). I didn't have problems getting good scores with that approach with either organisation (although I do have the good fortune - if you can call it that - to live in a fairly flat part of the world so the classical downhill control scenario probably didn't feature highly in the tests). As I say, I wonder if this is something that the Roadcraft System has become less rigid about over time.

[25NAD90TUL]

p1esk said:

BTW, look in again at ADUK sometime.

Dave you're going to be popular at ADUK shortly!

Have a word over there will you? The name 'Separation_Master' is 'in use' my email address is 'in use' and there are absolutely no capital letters in the anti-bot string!

Christ they are going to love you for this!

[p1esk]

25NAD90TUL said:

p1esk said:

BTW, look in again at ADUK sometime.

Dave you're going to be popular at ADUK shortly!

Have a word over there will you? The name 'Separation_Master' is 'in use' my email address is 'in use' and there are absolutely no capital letters in the anti-bot string!

Christ they are going to love you for this!

Well as long as somebody does.

[25NAD90TUL]

SK425 said:

My understanding from the training I've had from the big two is that that is one scenario where BGOL would not be frowned upon, and indeed preferred to secondary braking (and the speed increase that precedes it). I didn't have problems getting good scores with that approach with either organisation (although I do have the good fortune - if you can call it that - to live in a fairly flat part of the world so the classical downhill control scenario probably didn't feature highly in the tests). As I say, I wonder if this is something that the Roadcraft System has become less rigid about over time.

I live in Cornwall where very steep gradients are commonplace, separation is NOT going to be insisted upon in any downhill scenarios I would think. My belief is if you separate MOST of the time you will be OK. Separating ALL of the time is just polish and may be the difference between a 1 and a 2. What I said about rev matching being not related to BGOL was meant to mean that you don't have to BGOL in order to rev match. I'm a bit confused as to what you were saying there about that.

My attitude is if I'm told I SHOULD do something I will do it, I appreciate there is a big difference between SHOULD and MUST in this context.

[25NAD90TUL]

p1esk said:

Well as long as somebody does.

I know they've recently got sh*t hot on sign ups and have had trouble with spammers. I'm not a spammer and never have spammed! Haha makes me laugh that name Spam!

[25NAD90TUL]

p1esk said:

25NAD90TUL said:

p1esk said:

BTW, look in again at ADUK sometime.

Dave you're going to be popular at ADUK shortly!

Have a word over there will you? The name 'Separation_Master' is 'in use' my email address is 'in use' and there are absolutely no capital letters in the anti-bot string!

Christ they are going to love you for this!

Well as long as somebody does.

On second thoughts let's leave the ADUK thing, they aren't going to be welcoming I think and I don't want you to compromise your popularity there.

[25NAD90TUL]

I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread until others post, it's starting to remind me of my days as a professional chatroom flooder! (That is someone who builds interest in internet chats in order to increase the sign-up potential)

See y'all soon folks, best wishes all of you, even if you don't like me, it doesn't mean I don't like you! All the best, and will be reading if not posting, I'm very interested in this, can you tell?

[25NAD90TUL]

25NAD90TUL said:

p1esk said:

25NAD90TUL said:

p1esk said:

BTW, look in again at ADUK sometime.

Dave you're going to be popular at ADUK shortly!

Have a word over there will you? The name 'Separation_Master' is 'in use' my email address is 'in use' and there are absolutely no capital letters in the anti-bot string!

Christ they are going to love you for this!

Well as long as somebody does.

On second thoughts let's leave the ADUK thing, they aren't going to be welcoming I think and I don't want you to compromise your popularity there.

Dave you might want to let them know that ANY email address is 'in use' and that the captcha question is corrupted. There are ZERO capital letters in that string. It's a closed shop, unless they alter that. I won't be signing up either way, but others may want to.

[SK425]

25NAD90TUL said:

What I said about rev matching being not related to BGOL was meant to mean that you don't have to BGOL in order to rev match.

No indeed. Quite the opposite unless one is able to H&T.

25NAD90TUL said:

I'm a bit confused as to what you were saying there about that.

My point was just that the concept of BGOL and it's avoidance is very relevant to rev matching, because one of the various advantages suggested for avoiding BGOL is that doing so allows you to rev match. ("without the need for H&T" is implicit on the end of that of course).