Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?

[otolith]

Don said:

Clutch-drag braking is fking bad and no-one with any mechanical sympathy would tell you it was. This is irrelevant to the braking whilst downchanging debate other most people can't H&T.

It makes my teeth itch, but most drivers seem to do it.

[Crippo]

I heel and toe all the time regardless of vehicle. It just seems more satisfying and keeps the skill alive. I can't see how you can seperate them out without a compromise. I suppose this is the definition of advanced driving, if you can't heel and toe then you can't be an advanced driver....in my most humble of opinions

[Don]

Technically you can be an "advanced" driver without H&T. The Roadcraft System of Car Control does not require H&T to work quite deliberately.

This in no way means H&T isn't useful or good in a manual car. Just that it isn't part of the System of Car Control.

With modern computer controlled gearchanges H&T will die out as the computer will do it faster, better, more reliably and so on.

If the world goes electric there simply won't BE gears to worry about.

"Advanced" driving will then all be about PAYING ATTENTION! - Which it mostly is already...

[otolith]

Would the full separators take advantage if the 370Z synchro-rev feature, I wonder?

(It's an automatic rev matching system on a manual gearbox - perfect rev matched downshifts under braking with no H&T)

[Crippo]

I understand that point, but surely "Advanced" means more than paying attention. I know people who cant drive very well but can pay attention. Think about Football? An advanced Footballer would be someone with amazing, advanced skills as well as someone who can read the game and be in the right place at the right time. One without the other is not sufficient to make an advanced player. Taking away the skill of driving takes away the opportunity of being any good at it.

Sorry about the football analogy....I don't even watch it or support a team but it seemed to work

[otolith]

Surely an advanced player is merely one who is at least a little better than the bog standard.

[Toltec]

Don said:

If you can't H&T properly downchanging under braking will fk your clutch. Not today. Not tomorrow. But eventually.

Avoiding H&T and downchanging after braking may still fk your clutch if you don't bother to match revs to road speed. Not today. Not tomorrow. But eventually.

While it is going to contribute to wear and tear changing down at 1200rpm or less is going to do less damage than every time you set off from a standstill. The rpm difference is lower as will be the applied torque.

I don't think it is worth worrying about.

[SVS]

I thought an advanced driver was merely one who did things in advance thanks to advanced observations, anticipation and forward planning

[Toltec]

SVS said:

I thought an advanced driver was merely one who did things in advance thanks to advanced observations, anticipation and forward planning

I like that, is that yours or a quote?

[SK425]

I think 7db and MC Bodge summed it up quite nicely between them in this thread:

7db said:

An advanced driver is anyone who deliberately attempts to always be able to stop in the distance they can see and reasonably expect to be clear.

The rest is just technique and schism.

MC Bodge said:

Advanced driving:

Driving in such a way that if everybody else did the same, the roads would flow more smoothly and all road users would be able to interact in a more harmonious way.

[otolith]

SK425 said:

I think 7db and MC Bodge summed it up quite nicely between them in this thread:

7db said:

An advanced driver is anyone who deliberately attempts to always be able to stop in the distance they can see and reasonably expect to be clear.

It's shocking that such a definition isn't what we would call a minimally legally competent driver!

[SK425]

otolith said:

It's shocking that such a definition isn't what we would call a minimally legally competent driver!

That's a good point. I said in that other thread that I don't really know what advanced driving is - it's just driving.

To be fair to 7db, the context I ripped his comment out of was a thread full of extreme navel gazing on what being an advanced driver is and he probably felt the discussion might benefit from some simplifying.

ETA: Perhaps that definition is what we would call a minimally legally competent driver. We are required to drive to the standard of a "competent and careful driver". Failing to do that is an offence. It might be somewhat concerning if violating the definition I borrowed from 7db was deemed to be competent and careful.

Edited by SK425 on Tuesday 17th June 11:54

[otolith]

It's the fact that he's probably right which is most shocking!

[7db]

It was a rush job, but I'm pretty comfy with that definition even out of context.

The inclusion of "deliberate", "attempt" and "always" represents the thoughtful efforts of an advanced driver to consider and do their best to adhere to the Golden Rule at all times.
- it's a deliberate act
- they might fail, but it's the always trying that counts
- others might be careful and competent without thinking about the Golden Rule

[TheRealFingers99]

As someone said a long. long time ago "it's a system".

Brake in a straight line, don't brake and change down simultaneously and so on. The Police use a similar system.

It's simply the most effective way of getting a driver to be in control of the car at all times and be pretty damn quick given a fairly wide range of ability and limited time.

In the hands of someone good, it's never going to be as fast as trail braking, heel and toeing, left foot braking and so on. But how fast do you want/need/dare to be on an unknown public road?

[james_gt3rs]

TheRealFingers99 said:

In the hands of someone good, it's never going to be as fast as trail braking, heel and toeing, left foot braking and so on. But how fast do you want/need/dare to be on an unknown public road?

Fast enough to get away from the cops who don't heel and toe?

[R_U_LOCAL]

TheRealFingers99 said:

As someone said a long. long time ago "it's a system".

Quite correct, but the key point is that it is "a" system, and not "the" system. In other words, it's the system promoted by police driving schools and advanced motoring organisations because it has the most benefits for the largest number of people.

However, it's not the only system, and I am sure there are some very good drivers who overlap the braking and gearchanging phases to very good effect. They wouldn't pass a police course, but does that really matter if their overall standard of driving is above average? I'm not so sure it does.

[otolith]

There may be other benefits besides speed to being drive smoothly without full separation (including in those situations where overlap is accepted by the police system) but separation is good enough and better than what most do.

[TheRealFingers99]

james_gt3rs said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

In the hands of someone good, it's never going to be as fast as trail braking, heel and toeing, left foot braking and so on. But how fast do you want/need/dare to be on an unknown public road?

Fast enough to get away from the cops who don't heel and toe?

Well, the Police don't rely on brilliance, but in competence, a system, and numbers. Chances are -- and most of the Police video stuff on the box seems to bear this out -- that if you think you're fast enough to get away from them, you're going to bin it (or be nicked 5 hours later).

[SVS]

The interesting thing is what people do who possess both racing experience and police training. Judging by John Lyon and Mark Kendrick (both experienced race drivers), they drive to the police system on the road.

Mark Kendrick once told me he got interested in the police system when he discovered that he couldn't keep up with a police advanced driver on the road. (I believe he was a full-time racer when he discovered this, but I can't remember the full tale.)

John Lyon (who had a race championship win to his name, as well as having raced at Le Mans) drove to the police system on the road. Only rarely did I see him heel'n'toe on the road; mostly he avoided BGOL.

Similarly on the bike, Jon Taylor (another race championship winner) rode to the police system on the road.

I've not come across anyone with dual race experience/police advanced training who didn't use the police system as their basis of driving on the road.

Edited by SVS on Tuesday 17th June 23:34