Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?

[Gary C]

SVS said:

on the road.

Mark Kendrick once told me he got interested in the police system when he discovered that he couldn't keep up with a police advanced driver on the road. (I believe he was a full-time racer when he discovered this, but I can't remember the full tale.)

Edited by SVS on Tuesday 17th June 23:34

Sorry, but I don't believe that would have anything to do with the gear changing in any way. Road position would be far more important and can be very different from track driving.

[MC Bodge]

I wouldn't have thought that a successful racing driver would struggle to "keep up with" somebody on a road, if it was a matter of speed technique. Driving in the manner of a fundamentalist extremist Roadcraft disciple isn't 'faster' from a dynamics point of view. He who cares least about blind bends the could be fastest from A to B.

Regularly "barging through"/"assertively interacting with" traffic must help and having a Police car with blue lights and sirens possibly helps a little too.

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 19th June 15:51

[Rick101]

SVS said:

Mark Kendrick once told me he got interested in the police system when he discovered that he couldn't keep up with a police advanced driver on the road.

Edited by SVS on Tuesday 17th June 23:34

I don't believe for a second that separation of brake and gear change alone allows police or those who use it to be quicker drivers.

I've yet to see doing two things separately being quicker that doing those two things at the same time.

[R_U_LOCAL]

Gary C said:

SVS said:

on the road.

Mark Kendrick once told me he got interested in the police system when he discovered that he couldn't keep up with a police advanced driver on the road. (I believe he was a full-time racer when he discovered this, but I can't remember the full tale.)

Edited by SVS on Tuesday 17th June 23:34

Sorry, but I don't believe that would have anything to do with the gear changing in any way. Road position would be far more important and can be very different from track driving.

I think the point behind this comment is that a good police advanced driver in a reasonably high performance car should always be in a position to take advantage of any overtaking opportunity which presents itself. Many of those opportunities will be "on" for the leading driver, but not "on" for a following driver.

During advanced courses, two cars would occasionally end up in convoy, but if the front car took every available overtake, there would be no way on earth that the following car would be able to pass, and over a few miles, the number of "single" overtaking opportunities taken by the lead car would mean that the following car would inevitably end up several vehicles behind.

[TheRealFingers99]

It's a system -- or a religion! -- it doesn't need to be faster all the time. just consistently quick (and safe).

On a circuit, or even a rally stage, you know what's coming with a far greater degree of accuracy than on the road: you know the clipping points, the sight lines are pretty much irrelevant, the grip levels are unlikely to change dramatically, there should be nothing coming the other way..........

[MC Bodge]

R_U_LOCAL said:

During advanced courses, two cars would occasionally end up in convoy, but if the front car took every available overtake, there would be no way on earth that the following car would be able to pass, and over a few miles, the number of "single" overtaking opportunities taken by the lead car would mean that the following car would inevitably end up several vehicles behind.

Yes, so nothing to do with separating gears and braking, just that two cars are longer than one.

[otolith]

The speed someone is willing to go through a bend on the road generally comes down to - how much risk there is at that speed, how good they are at perceiving that level of risk, and how much appetite they have for it.

[MC Bodge]

otolith said:

The speed someone is willing to go through a bend on the road generally comes down to - how much risk there is at that speed, how good they are at perceiving that level of risk, and how much appetite they have for it.

...And whether or not they have had a visitation from Lord Cottenham's ghost, of course.

But, given an adequate understanding and feel for grip it is mostly about how far they want to "push it".

[SVS]

The reason behind the comment was that the police System ensures a relatively unhurried approach to bend entry, which enables a more accurate assessment of the bend, resulting in a consistently quick exit from the bend. On the road, where road conditions vary and other road users can be unpredictable, consistently accurate assessment delivers a reliably fast pace. (This is clearly different on track, where the circuit layout is known and so on.)

Driving is a very practical skill and it's easier to explain these things in-car. I've been in-car with John Lyon and Mark Kendrick: both were experienced race drivers, yet both chose to drive to the police System when on the road. I've also had the privilege of bike training from Jon Taylor - not 'just' a Nurburgring instructor, but a race championship winner - who also chose to use the police System on the road. I conclude that it's horses for courses: the police System is an ideal approach to driving or riding on the road. Guys who are accomplished on both road and track choose the police System for the road.

[MC Bodge]

What do you actually mean by "the Police system" for cars and bikes?

[TheRealFingers99]

I'd imagine "Roadcraft" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadcraft

Available from -- and published by -- the Stationery Office. Apparently.

[otolith]

But there is no reason someone can't achieve the same effect by overlapping, if they choose to. It's a side effect.

[SVS]

otolith said:

But there is no reason someone can't achieve the same effect by overlapping, if they choose to. It's a side effect.

True, it's a side effect. (Albeit an extremely valuable side effect.) Hence I said that the police System was an ideal approach, i.e. not the only way. Personally, I've nothing against overlapping per se.

Perhaps avoiding overlap should be a useful exercise to develop an unhurried approach to hazards. Thus, the outcome (a consistently unhurried approach to hazards) would be more important than the means (avoiding BGOL).

[MC Bodge]

TheRealFingers99 said:

I'd imagine "Roadcraft" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadcraft

Available from -- and published by -- the Stationery Office. Apparently.

I own and have read Roadcraft.

otolith said:

But there is no reason someone can't achieve the same effect by overlapping, if they choose to

Exactly, it is just a method of manipulating a manual gearbox whilst partaking in driving.

Maintaining vehicle balance and smoothness by overlapping controls, using heel-toe(blipping the throttle under braking), double-de-clutch, even gentle trail braking etc. may not be absolutely necessary, but the techniques are not wrong or inferior to struggling to become smooth despite not using techniques that aid smoothness.

[otolith]

SVS said:

Perhaps avoiding overlap should be a useful exercise to develop an unhurried approach to hazards. Thus, the outcome (a consistently unhurried approach to hazards) would be more important than the means (avoiding BGOL).

Agreed.

[Rick101]

What is actually the problem with doing two things at once?

We do lots of other things in tandem, why do we have to entirely separate brake and gear change?

I see no difference between braking and disengaging the clutch when coming to a stop and braking and disengaging the clutch when preparing for a gear change.

[TheRealFingers99]

Rick101 said:

What is actually the problem with doing two things at once?

There isn't a problem (although I will admit to locking the rear wheel up on bikes a few times doing just that) but it's easier to teach, I'd think, and a system doesn't have to be better than a good individual, just more consistently good.

I suspect most of us are more Mr Molehusband than Jackie Stewart.

[Gary C]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Gary C said:

SVS said:

on the road.

Mark Kendrick once told me he got interested in the police system when he discovered that he couldn't keep up with a police advanced driver on the road. (I believe he was a full-time racer when he discovered this, but I can't remember the full tale.)

Edited by SVS on Tuesday 17th June 23:34

Sorry, but I don't believe that would have anything to do with the gear changing in any way. Road position would be far more important and can be very different from track driving.

I think the point behind this comment is that a good police advanced driver in a reasonably high performance car should always be in a position to take advantage of any overtaking opportunity which presents itself..

Given the topic of this thread, it appeared it's suggesting that gear changing made the police driver faster.

[SK425]

Rick101 said:

I see no difference between braking and disengaging the clutch when coming to a stop and braking and disengaging the clutch when preparing for a gear change.

Neither do I. And neither, I think, does Roadcraft. Strict Roadcrdafting, if that's how someone wants to drive, does not preclude disengaging the clutch for a gear change before braking is complete. Effecting a Roadcraft-style single braking phase followed by single gear change wouldn't even be possible sometimes if you weren't allowed to disengage the clutch before braking was finished.

[Rick101]

SK425 said:

Neither do I. And neither, I think, does Roadcraft.

Strange. Seems to be the entire focus of both IAM and ROSPA tuition i've had. Hoping my session with an ADUK guy tomorrow is a bit more two way.