Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?

[SK425]

Rick101 said:

SK425 said:

Neither do I. And neither, I think, does Roadcraft.

Strange. Seems to be the entire focus of both IAM and ROSPA tuition i've had. Hoping my session with an ADUK guy tomorrow is a bit more two way.

We might be misunderstanding each other. Off the motorway at 70 in top gear, slowing to what turns out to be a 15mph 2nd gear entry to the roundabout at the end of the slip road... A strict Roadcraftist would have you finish all that braking before you took a hand off the wheel to move the gear stick. But they wouldn't insist that you have to own a car that can go down as slow as 15mph in top gear - you would be allowed to put the clutch down before braking was finished. The alternative is stalling .

Having said that, where possible they would probably want to see full separation - braking finished before clutch down.

Shame the entire (almost) focus of your IAM and ROSPA tuition wasn't observation and planning.

[SVS]

Roadcraft is meant to be applied flexibly. If your car won't sensibly go from 70mph to 15mph in top gear, I personally don't see what's wrong with taking an intermediate gear as part of your driving plan. An unplanned, rushed gear change is one thing. Whereas a well-planned, unhurried change to an intermediate gear is fine IMO.

If you're on test or under observation, you can always use commentary to describe your forward planning. By describing your driving plan in advance of the gear phase, you can show good forward observation and planning, justifying how you intend to change gear (e.g. taking an intermediate gear).

[MC Bodge]

This topic has gone full-circle a number of times.

The traditional Rospa approach does hold up separating gears and braking as a 'pillar of wisdom'. I have first hand experience of it and the Rospa website even had an article devoted to the subject.

I'm not sure why it has become such a cornerstone/badge of honour amongst the Advanced Drivers, although it may be something to do with aping the "Police way" that seems to be held up by some as a holy ideal.

It's just not that important overall.

[waremark]

otolith said:

Would the full separators take advantage if the 370Z synchro-rev feature, I wonder?

(It's an automatic rev matching system on a manual gearbox - perfect rev matched downshifts under braking with no H&T)

Who would want such a system? If you don't get satisfaction from accurate rev matching without electronic assistance why would you choose a car with a manual gearbox? Perhaps the marketing depts of Nissan, Porsche or BMW M division could explain.

I have experienced the system in a recent Porsche; it worked perfectly but I would want it switched off.

[Craikeybaby]

That is exactly my feeling, if I wanted the car to automate parts of the gear change is get a dual clutch that by all a accounts seem to be faster than a manual.

[otolith]

I guess someone who can't heel and toe but doesn't separate. Most drivers, I think. It would be quite useful for someone learning to drive on track who has not yet mastered H&T.

[waremark]

otolith said:

I guess someone who can't heel and toe but doesn't separate. Most drivers, I think. It would be quite useful for someone learning to drive on track who has not yet mastered H&T.

So why not choose the paddle shift system which is available on all these cars, and which gives better performance and economy combined with excellent control?

[waremark]

waremark said:

otolith said:

I guess someone who can't heel and toe but doesn't separate. Most drivers, I think. It would be quite useful for someone learning to drive on track who has not yet mastered H&T.

So why not choose the paddle shift system which is available on all these cars, and which gives better performance and economy combined with excellent control?

I think my previous reply was too hasty. I can see that there could be some drivers who enjoy accurate gear changing in regular driving but who don't use H & T, so would benefit from this system when they want to overlap.

[Tje]

I have to say I never thought much about changing down whilst braking and unbalancing the car. That was until I got my impreza and when driving rather progressively, down changing whilst breaking into a round about I did feel the car give me a bit if feedback that maybe I shouldn't do that haha. Nothing stepped out just felt off balance.

[Don]

waremark said:

otolith said:

I guess someone who can't heel and toe but doesn't separate. Most drivers, I think. It would be quite useful for someone learning to drive on track who has not yet mastered H&T.

So why not choose the paddle shift system which is available on all these cars, and which gives better performance and economy combined with excellent control?

That is my view. Whilst I have thoroughly enjoyed mastering a completely manual gearbox, H&T etc I am certain that in due course a paddle shift system dual clutch jobbie will be effortlessly superior - and available on cars that I am likely to buy.

Then there's the likelihood of cars becoming largely electric. No gears at all. There's a video of a Tesla lapping the Nurburgring that is quite surreal. Almost no sound other than the chirrup of the tyres protesting...no gear changes...nothing.

[otolith]

Maybe for someone who drives to the system on the road but realises that it's not ideal on track, and wishes to be able to focus on his braking and lines before he learns to H&T?

[Thirsty33]

There is also an inconsistency here - you can drive an auto on test and it will overlap changing and braking. Not an issue. The reason can't (shouldn't) be "avoiding doing 2 things at once" concern because advanced driving is partly about being able to master doing many things at once effortlessly. (While you should avoid doing more things at once than you really need to, I don't think that argument holds for this either)

It seems to me more about having taken off all your speed before you change gear - it's easy to get sloppy and use the engine for that last few mph of trim, but that would be easy to spot and criticise separately.

In reality you don't brake and change gear at the same time anyway - you just declutch in the final stage of braking and then go back to the throttle to engage the clutch and new gear. In my opinion, done with complete smoothness and balance there is nothing wrong with it, although to avoid being guilty of coasting, you are only making the change a second earlier than if you followed the prescribed system to the letter.

[SVS]

I agree with Thirsty33.

There's also an inconsistency when it come to advanced motorcycling: it's OK to overlap on a bike ('How to Be a Better Rider' advocates it) yet it's not in a car. Whatever the differences between car and bike gear boxes, that's still inconsistent.

[Dr Jekyll]

Changing gears on a bike doesn't involve taking your hands off the bars and a biker can blip the throttle under braking without resorting to H/T.

[MC Bodge]

Dr Jekyll said:

Changing gears on a bike doesn't involve taking your hands off the bars and a biker can blip the throttle under braking without resorting to H/T.

...but they are doing 2 things simultaneously with their right hand, which is akin to heel-and-toeing.

[Toltec]

MC Bodge said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Changing gears on a bike doesn't involve taking your hands off the bars and a biker can blip the throttle under braking without resorting to H/T.

...but they are doing 2 things simultaneously with their right hand, which is akin to heel-and-toeing.

Not to mention a bike engined car with paddle shift, no need to take a hand off the wheel...

[Dr Jekyll]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The real cornerstones of good driving are observation and planning though, and you need to plan further ahead to separate than to overlap.

[Craikeybaby]

But surely planning/observation and H&T aren't mutually exclusive?

[Gary C]

Dr Jekyll said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The real cornerstones of good driving are observation and planning though, and you need to plan further ahead to separate than to overlap.

Interestingly (not!) this topic has made me observe my own driving which has developed good and bad for the last 30 years and on gear changing I use a complete mix dependant on situation. I do plan ahead and often blip and change to 4th before begin a braking phase, especially off mways. I h&t often at Islands and back lanes. I will even change under braking without h&t at low revs as it makes bugger all difference in low speed driving.

Surely advanced driving has much bigger things to concentrate on, observation and planning have much more important benefits than worrying about a gear change?

[StressedDave]

Dr Jekyll said:

The real cornerstones of good driving are observation and planning though, and you need to plan further ahead to separate than to overlap.

No you don't - you merely have to brake more firmly if you plan to overlap.