Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?
Discussion
StressedDave said:
No you don't - you merely have to brake more firmly if you plan to overlap.
Would you mind explaining that please as I would say the opposite is the case. For a given braking point overlap lets you continue braking for longer therefore the maximum braking effort can be lower. Toltec said:
Would you mind explaining that please as I would say the opposite is the case. For a given braking point overlap lets you continue braking for longer therefore the maximum braking effort can be lower.
I think we're agreeing with each other. I was working on the basis that someone braking with and without overlap would start braking at the same point on the road. To be able to fit in a gearchange at the end of braking and arrive at the hazard at the same speed you need to complete the braking phase earlier and thus brake harder.IME of the great driving public, the braking point tends to be relatively invariant and, sadly the braking pressure seems to be much the same too. Overlap, irrespective of whether it's nicely smoothed out using heel and toe or not, seems to result not from poorer planning on the part of the overlappers but the fact that people really, really hate using the brakes.
It's worth asking yourself whether you're overlapping because you're a good driver and have chosen to overlap for any one of a million justifiable reasons or overlapping because you're not pressing the middle pedal hard enough.
StressedDave said:
It's worth asking yourself whether you're overlapping because you're a good driver and have chosen to overlap for any one of a million justifiable reasons or overlapping because you're not pressing the middle pedal hard enough.
Easy test for that, can one drive without any overlap if one choose to do so?anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'd agree that it can give you more options if you are doing it right rather than as pointed out by Dave.StressedDave said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The real cornerstones of good driving are observation and planning though, and you need to plan further ahead to separate than to overlap.
No you don't - you merely have to brake more firmly if you plan to overlap.BTW, I agree that you do not need to plan further ahead to separate than to overlap - necessarily. Or at least not in a negative sort of way. One advantage of overlapping, with H & T for mechanical sympathy and smoothness, is that for a given braking force you can start braking a little later, with the benefit of more information about the hazard at the time you start (and finish) braking.
Strangly I start to think, and think more carefully, about and prepare myself fractionally earlier if using heel n toe than I might for separation. Which is another reason why I prefer to use it as well as the benifits of being smoother and if approaching a typical blind bend in the country I would like to have the gear engaged early with both hands back on the wheel and my foot on or covering the brake rather than the clutch and changing gear.
MC Bodge said:
Strange indeed. You must need to practice heel and toe more
I happen to know that John is competent at H & T. If you are going to use H & T you have to position your foot suitably before you start to brake. If you don't always or even often use H & T, then you probably don't generally position your foot on the footbrake in a suitable position for H & T except when you are thinking of using H & T. Hence you need to have prepared for H & T at an early stage of hazard preparation.
SVS said:
Gary C said:
Surely advanced driving has much bigger things to concentrate on, observation and planning have much more important benefits than worrying about a gear change?
+1 
As far as I'm concerned, real advanced driving is about observing and reacting rather than the control inputs.
davepoth said:
Plus 1 billion.
As far as I'm concerned, real advanced driving is about observing and reacting rather than the control inputs.
It does depend how you want to define reacting, I prefer to think that if you have correctly observed and planned then you respond to the actions of others. It is the difference between seeing them do something and working out what to do, and already knowing what to do for a given range of possible actions.As far as I'm concerned, real advanced driving is about observing and reacting rather than the control inputs.
Dr Jekyll said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The real cornerstones of good driving are observation and planning though, and you need to plan further ahead to separate than to overlap.Under what circumstances is it necessary to H'n'T on the public road?
I appreciate the benefits of rev-matching, however H'n'T is a technique used to combine brakingandrev-matching which is necessary on a circuit where you want to brake as late as possible.
When I use H'n'T I actively plan on doing it as well.
I still make just one gear change per hazard though. Don't see the point in changing down multiple times when I could have both hands on the wheel to steer.
Tell you what - it's a revelation driving an electric car. Absolutely no gear changes. Continuous drive. Fantastic. And full torque from a standstill is quite something. The car is incredibly reactive to control inputs at lower speeds. Runs out of puff around 80mph though.
I still make just one gear change per hazard though. Don't see the point in changing down multiple times when I could have both hands on the wheel to steer.
Tell you what - it's a revelation driving an electric car. Absolutely no gear changes. Continuous drive. Fantastic. And full torque from a standstill is quite something. The car is incredibly reactive to control inputs at lower speeds. Runs out of puff around 80mph though.
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