Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?

Why is it wrong to brake and down-change simultaneously?

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Discussion

StressedDave

839 posts

261 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
OK, I'll bite...

Depending on your point of view, there are no circumstances where it is necessary to heel-and-toe on the public road, anymore that it is necessary to use pull-push steering or any number of other techniques that are either seen as necessary or 'strictly for the racetrack' by those who see Road craft as the alpha and omega of driving theory rather than the manual for making any Police Officer (irrespective of actual driving ability) safe whilst attempting to get from job to job in a timely fashion.

Choosing to use H'n'T, when it is really chosen rather than as a means for not getting it right in terms of observation and planning is as much a valid choice as full separation. In the non-goatee toting, weakly built, Red Bull catching world I see an awful lot of neither. IME, when presented with an unfamiliar road, my typical client fails to observe and plan, let alone worry about the niceties of gear changing.

Now either I get really unlucky with the members of PH who darken my door, or there's a fundamental disconnect between what most people do and what they believe they do. I doubt I'm that unlucky.

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
True, however you can be skilled at separation, blending or both, it does not really matter providing you are in control. Driving to an advanced level is not about using specific control techniques, rather it is a mental exercise in identifying and minimising hazards while attaining your destination in a timely manner.

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
It would have to be a pretty specific situation where changing gear would avoid an accident that some other combination of actions would not. That is not to say it would not be impossible to come up with one.

If you cannot separate then driving a car not set up well for H&T would be tricky to do smoothly. It is probably worth using separation at least some of the time just to maintain the skill. Sometimes I do it just for the variety.

You could say that the only reason to use your right foot to brake in an automatic is because you are insufficiently skilled to use your left foot.



Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Thursday 28th August 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I too will use it a lot of the time as I prefer the way you can control the rate of change of weight transfer. As an example though, I would tend to separate when slowing from nsl to a 30 as there is no need to accelerate after braking.


Z.B

224 posts

177 months

Friday 29th August 2014
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waremark said:
I happen to know that John is competent at H & T.

If you are going to use H & T you have to position your foot suitably before you start to brake. If you don't always or even often use H & T, then you probably don't generally position your foot on the footbrake in a suitable position for H & T except when you are thinking of using H & T. Hence you need to have prepared for H & T at an early stage of hazard preparation.
I would think in an ideal world if HT is going to be used during a drive we aim to place the foot appropriately every time the brake is used, even on occasions when HT doesn't occur? The foot placement for HT is so critical it would make sense to practise it every time we brake, rather than confusing our muscle memory with two different placements. That's what I generally aim for, vehicle allowing. Or do you disagree?

Gary C

12,313 posts

178 months

Friday 29th August 2014
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Z.B said:
waremark said:
I happen to know that John is competent at H & T.

If you are going to use H & T you have to position your foot suitably before you start to brake. If you don't always or even often use H & T, then you probably don't generally position your foot on the footbrake in a suitable position for H & T except when you are thinking of using H & T. Hence you need to have prepared for H & T at an early stage of hazard preparation.
I would think in an ideal world if HT is going to be used during a drive we aim to place the foot appropriately every time the brake is used, even on occasions when HT doesn't occur? The foot placement for HT is so critical it would make sense to practise it every time we brake, rather than confusing our muscle memory with two different placements. That's what I generally aim for, vehicle allowing. Or do you disagree?
I do tend to brake with my foot in the same pos regardless, but my hip does not permit me to rotate my foot in the normal h&t manner (no ! I'm not that old, just born that way wink so it maybe easier to do it that way for me.


MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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StressedDave said:
...IME, when presented with an unfamiliar road, my typical client fails to observe and plan, let alone worry about the niceties of gear changing.

Now either I get really unlucky with the members of PH who darken my door, or there's a fundamental disconnect between what most people do and what they believe they do. I doubt I'm that unlucky.
I don't know who your clients are, but I have certainly practiced heel-toe (and throttle blipping on my bikes) for a few years, with double-de-clutching downshifts in the cars (...mostly as an academic exercise to ease shifts as much as possible).

My 'driving plan' involves looking ahead, responding with minimal inputs, setting my speed/gear, taking a reasonable line, allowing the vehicle (car, motorbike, mountain bike etc.) to take a set, maintaining balance and being in the correct gear for a bend, hazard etc. as much as possible and almost always.

I genuinely do this -I don't claim greatness or racing skills, just interest and practice.

The upshot is that I can drive briskly and smoothly without upsetting the wife and family, make safe progress through traffic and go a bit more briskly at other times.

I'm fairly sure that there are others who can manage it too.

StressedDave

839 posts

261 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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MC Bodge said:
I don't know who your clients are, but I have certainly practiced heel-toe (and throttle blipping on my bikes) for a few years, with double-de-clutching downshifts in the cars (...mostly as an academic exercise to ease shifts as much as possible).

My 'driving plan' involves looking ahead, responding with minimal inputs, setting my speed/gear, taking a reasonable line, allowing the vehicle (car, motorbike, mountain bike etc.) to take a set, maintaining balance and being in the correct gear for a bend, hazard etc. as much as possible and almost always.

I genuinely do this -I don't claim greatness or racing skills, just interest and practice.

The upshot is that I can drive briskly and smoothly without upsetting the wife and family, make safe progress through traffic and go a bit more briskly at other times.

I'm fairly sure that there are others who can manage it too.
I did say typical, rather than all, and the problem is not with them being unable to heel-and-toe, but being able to do so on a wholly unfamiliar road, with their every movement being scrutinised (n their opinion) by a trained professional (also their opinion). laugh

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
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StressedDave said:
I did say typical, rather than all, and the problem is not with them being unable to heel-and-toe, but being able to do so on a wholly unfamiliar road, with their every movement being scrutinised (n their opinion) by a trained professional (also their opinion). laugh
Hmm, maybe your bedside manner puts people off their game?

StressedDave

839 posts

261 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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MC Bodge said:
StressedDave said:
I did say typical, rather than all, and the problem is not with them being unable to heel-and-toe, but being able to do so on a wholly unfamiliar road, with their every movement being scrutinised (n their opinion) by a trained professional (also their opinion). laugh
Hmm, maybe your bedside manner puts people off their game?
More their expectations of what I'm going to do to their driving. The fear of being forced to milk the cow whilst steering, full separation and slowing right down everywhere...

But yes, it's all the bedside manner laugh

robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Monday 8th September 2014
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No matter what you do in a car, you CAN'T MOVE THE CG. It's fixed by the distribution of the mass of the car.

SK425

1,034 posts

148 months

Monday 8th September 2014
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robinessex said:
No matter what you do in a car, you CAN'T MOVE THE CG. It's fixed by the distribution of the mass of the car.
Did anyone say you can?

(I suppose, since a car isn't a completely rigid body, and it has fluids in it and stuff, the CG must move a little bit, but I don't think that's relevant to this thread).

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Monday 8th September 2014
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robinessex said:
No matter what you do in a car, you CAN'T MOVE THE CG. It's fixed by the distribution of the mass of the car.
Fold the back seats down?

getmecoat