How should I be sitting?
Discussion
RobM77 said:
I wear 'long' length trousers and my arms are about average. Yes, I'm at the T-Rex end of the ape index, but nothing unusual. I'm just amazed that car manufacturers don't allow for what must be less than a standard deviation away from the mean leg/arm ratio.
I agree it's weird that you can't sit properly in normal mass-produced cars. _Neal_ said:
RobM77 said:
I wear 'long' length trousers and my arms are about average. Yes, I'm at the T-Rex end of the ape index, but nothing unusual. I'm just amazed that car manufacturers don't allow for what must be less than a standard deviation away from the mean leg/arm ratio. I agree it's weird that you can't sit properly in normal mass-produced cars. To be honest I don't think car manufacturers design their cars with the ideal or comfortable driving position (quoted consistently many times on this thread) in mind at all for a high percentile of the population. It might be there on a day one sketch, but it rarely if ever makes production. I think that cost or possibly airbag safety (or litigation!) considerations get in the way, meaning someone with a high ape index is very comfortable, and someone normal (say 32 waist 32 leg) is ok.
RobM77 said:
I can't answer Waremark's question accurately, but I'd like to think I'm a pretty average guy in terms of proportions and mass produced cars should definitely fit someone of my build, whereas the reality is that most are so far out I couldn't conceive of driving them a short distance, let alone owning them. I can make do in a lot of modern cars with good rake and rear adjustment (BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Merc C Class, VW Golf etc), but I never fail to be surprised at the proportion of so called mass produced cars that I am uncomfortable in (all Porsches, Hondas, Fords etc) and some that I can't even drive (Nissan Micra, Fiat 500).
To be honest I don't think car manufacturers design their cars with the ideal or comfortable driving position (quoted consistently many times on this thread) in mind at all for a high percentile of the population. It might be there on a day one sketch, but it rarely if ever makes production. I think that cost or possibly airbag safety (or litigation!) considerations get in the way, meaning someone with a high ape index is very comfortable, and someone normal (say 32 waist 32 leg) is ok.
That could help, from memory my ape index sits at +2 inchesTo be honest I don't think car manufacturers design their cars with the ideal or comfortable driving position (quoted consistently many times on this thread) in mind at all for a high percentile of the population. It might be there on a day one sketch, but it rarely if ever makes production. I think that cost or possibly airbag safety (or litigation!) considerations get in the way, meaning someone with a high ape index is very comfortable, and someone normal (say 32 waist 32 leg) is ok.
RobM77 said:
I can quite believe it. It's strange how things have changed over the years. Somewhere I've got a series of photos of me sat in various cars that I was going to post on PH to prove the point. My Dad at the time had a 1948 MG TC, a 1957 MG TF and a 1972 MGB GT, and I had a 1998 328i Sport Coupé and a 2003 Lotus Elise. When they were all at my parents' house I sat in each in turn, adjusting the seat for a slight bend in the left leg when it was fully down on the clutch, and it was really obvious what was going on - in the 1948 TC the enormous wheel was practically on my chest, and then gradually as the cars got older the wheel got further and further away until you get to the Lotus Elise, in which I'm right on the edge of being able to drive the thing at all, with arms totally locked straight, so unable to turn the slightly raked wheel without leaning forwards. Thankfully the Elise has no airbag, so it's a quick and simple job to swap the steering wheel for a 6 bolt Momo and then buy a spacer; it's what I did with mine and I've transferred the setup to my current 2-Eleven. I also did this with all my racing cars, which obviously had no airbags either.
The annoying thing is all the lovely road cars that I've really liked and wanted to buy, but simply couldn't get comfy in; the list is endless. Some cars I've even had a huge job just fitting behind the wheel well enough to drive at all, so I never got to test drive them - Ferrari 355 and Porsche 996 spring to mind straight away. The Clio V6 I just fit in, but I could barely walk after a 30 minute drive; shame, because I loved the car.
pthelazyjourno said:
Elise was designed to accommodate the 95th percentile - it's a niche car so tough luck if you fall in the other 5 per cent! I think most cars are designed for closer to 98, but presumably most of the design team at Lotus were at the smaller end of the scale!!
I'm starting to think that Rob is maybe the problem here, how can he be the only one on the planet who can't fit those list of cars? I'm beginning to think that he has a particular idea of how he wants to be sitting that is at odds with nearly everyone else on the planet? Either that or the unthinkable, he seems to take a totally opposite view on a lot of things, as evidenced recently with the Porsche variable rate rack that nobody else (some of whom actually drive them) that according to Rob make them impossible to corner properly? has heard of? Just saying...The Elise was not designed for the 95th percentile. It has a very extreme 'Stirling Moss' driving position. Lotus used a German world war 2 anatomical model they called 'agent orange' and gave the seat a few more clicks.
As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
RobM77 said:
The Elise was not designed for the 95th percentile. It has a very extreme 'Stirling Moss' driving position. Lotus used a German world war 2 anatomical model they called 'agent orange' and gave the seat a few more clicks.
As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
Adjust the backrest forward a bit? If you look at touring car drivers they sit with quite a pronounced bend in their arms, I sit quite upright, the "granny position" because I have short arms so a few clicks forward on the backrest and robert is my fathers brother...As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
RobM77 said:
The Elise was not designed for the 95th percentile. It has a very extreme 'Stirling Moss' driving position. Lotus used a German world war 2 anatomical model they called 'agent orange' and gave the seat a few more clicks.
As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
How well did you get on with your MR2? I find mine to have a far better seating position than most modern cars. Everything falls naturally to hand. The only minor complaint is lateral support can be bit lacking at certain times. The optional Recaros would sort that if I could get my hand on some!As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
Backrest: Fixed in the Lotus, and the BMW's fairly upright but my back suffers if it's not slightly reclined.
MR2: I can't remember to be honest as it was so long ago. Not too bad if I remember rightly. I remember it being a fantastic car and yes, the driving environment was beautifully designed; the gearchange being next to the steering wheel was the best bit!
MR2: I can't remember to be honest as it was so long ago. Not too bad if I remember rightly. I remember it being a fantastic car and yes, the driving environment was beautifully designed; the gearchange being next to the steering wheel was the best bit!
RobM77 said:
The Elise was not designed for the 95th percentile. It has a very extreme 'Stirling Moss' driving position. Lotus used a German world war 2 anatomical model they called 'agent orange' and gave the seat a few more clicks.
As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
Presumably you've got that from the same M111 video, but have forgotten the rest of Richard Rackham's quote: As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
"...Agent Orange being "Mr 95th percentile".
Followed by:
"Agent Orange is a result of wartime American research into how big they should make cockpits of aeroplanes..."
And:
"This means that 95 per cent of the population would be comfortable inside this car.”
The additional clicks on the seat being included to accommodate the fact the population has grown since 1945 or whenever.
Dunno where the 'extreme Sterling Moss' driving position thing comes from, but your opinion on that seems out of sorts with every review I've ever read on the Elise / Exige.
RobM77 said:
BertBert said:
RobM77 said:
What a joke that is - a standard sized guy and I can't even sit behind the wheel of some of the most common production cars around.
How strange. I am 5'8", dead on 10st so very similar physique. I can't remember failing to get comfortable in a car. It's a pain to do and no matter how much you fiddle with the position before you start in a new car, it seems to be wrong within 5 mins of setting off. But re-adjust and off you go. Hey ho!Bert
Zod said:
MC Bodge said:
I once read that a driver should be able to rest the heel of the palm on the top of the wheel with the shoulders flat against the seat back. This is my baseline.
Not palms, wrists.Zod said:
shakotan said:
I believe that due to the introduction of airbags, and power steering on almost every new car, the steering wheel position has shifted to a more 8 to 4 recommendation.
Er, no it has not. That is not a position that provides proper control.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff