How should I be sitting?

How should I be sitting?

Author
Discussion

pthelazyjourno

1,848 posts

168 months

Friday 13th December 2013
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p1esk said:
Are you saying that hand positions of 8 - 4 should never be used?
I wouldn't use it when first setting yourself up in the car (seating, mirrors etc), as you won't be able to comfortably reach the top parts of the steering wheel should you need to.

God knows why you'd choose to drive along holding 8-4 - steering wheel on my car certainly isn't designed for it, but each to their own.

p1esk

4,914 posts

195 months

Friday 13th December 2013
quotequote all
pthelazyjourno said:
p1esk said:
Are you saying that hand positions of 8 - 4 should never be used?
I wouldn't use it when first setting yourself up in the car (seating, mirrors etc), as you won't be able to comfortably reach the top parts of the steering wheel should you need to.

God knows why you'd choose to drive along holding 8-4 - steering wheel on my car certainly isn't designed for it, but each to their own.
It is merely one of many options that may be perfectly satisfactory in some situations. I prefer not to have my choices restricted unnecessarily.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 13th December 2013
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pthelazyjourno said:
RobM77 said:
The Elise was not designed for the 95th percentile. It has a very extreme 'Stirling Moss' driving position. Lotus used a German world war 2 anatomical model they called 'agent orange' and gave the seat a few more clicks.

As for how I want to sit, I find perfection to be exactly the standard quoted all over this thread - leg slightly bent on the clutch fully down and straight arm resting with the wheel in the small of my wrist. If I do that in an Elise the wheel is just beyond my fingertips.
Presumably you've got that from the same M111 video, but have forgotten the rest of Richard Rackham's quote:

"...Agent Orange being "Mr 95th percentile".

Followed by:

"Agent Orange is a result of wartime American research into how big they should make cockpits of aeroplanes..."

And:

"This means that 95 per cent of the population would be comfortable inside this car.”

The additional clicks on the seat being included to accommodate the fact the population has grown since 1945 or whenever.

Dunno where the 'extreme Sterling Moss' driving position thing comes from, but your opinion on that seems out of sorts with every review I've ever read on the Elise / Exige.
On the contrary, I remember what he said very well. I was trying to say that evidently you either a) can't just give the seat a couple more clicks to convert from 1940 to 1997, or b) perhaps the designers have a strange idea about what's comfortable in a car. The 'Stirling Moss' thing is an established joke amongst many Lotus owners; I'm on my second Elise or directly Elise based Lotus and know plenty of people who, like me, have to buy a sizeable steering wheel spacer to get comfortable. If you look at anyone driving an Elise they mostly do so with very bent legs and very straight arms. That means if you're slightly long in the leg you're stuffed. Lotus cured the problem for the Evora...

RichB

51,429 posts

283 months

Saturday 14th December 2013
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CR6ZZ said:
Are you all seated comfly-bold,
two-square on your botty?
Then I'll begin....

Apologies to The Small Faces.
No apologies needed that's an all time classic and one I treasure in my vinyl collection biggrin

As for the matter in question, it depends on what you're driving.

rogerhudson

338 posts

157 months

Saturday 14th December 2013
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LordGrover said:
Agree with 9-3 rather than 10-2. yes

Just to clarify, you should still have a slight bend at the knee with clutch fully depressed.

I'd add you should have middle of head restraint level with your ears/eyes.

Stretch arms out (slight bend) and rest wrists on steering wheel. This should be comfortable and allow good steering.
Head restraint level with the eyes?? When they put head 'rests' as they were called in the 1990s classic mini they were between my shoulder blades, total stupidity. Sitting practically on the floor is another stupid idea.

RichB

51,429 posts

283 months

Saturday 14th December 2013
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And one wonders how you align the head restraint with the middle of your eyes because in my experience most of them are an integral part of the seat these days.

rogerhudson

338 posts

157 months

Saturday 14th December 2013
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Of all dozens of sorts of cars I have driven I found that getting into a Range Rover was a revelation, the backrest /hip/ thigh angle is perfect, the lower legs and feet interact with the pedals just right, the arms can angle to the wheel in 9-3 with great control.
One should not that in 'tactical/defensive' driving one is taught to sit a little closer to the wheel than one might think normal.

All old cars used to have quite short with rounded tops, the reason being that steering used to involve the shoulder/ upper body muscles in cars without power steering. The first RangeRovers had no power assist and were real beasts, also why the thumbs need to be outside of the wheel rims.

rogerhudson

338 posts

157 months

Saturday 14th December 2013
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SebastienClement said:
It occurred to me that I don't really know how to sit properly in the car. All I do, is get myself relatively comfy, check I can see things in the mirrors and off I go.

What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?

I find my forearms ache if I drive any distance with my hands at 10-2... is it likely I have the steering wheel set too high?

Any pointers on what I should be looking out for, to make sure I'm sat correctly?
In an old EVO article on the Maserati tipo 250 there is a lovely photo of J M Fangio , surely the greatest of drivers, at the Old Nurbergring German GP(photo by Klematski)and his arms show perfect angle with the wheel, his head angle is just right as well. 180 mph without a safety harness.

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Saturday 14th December 2013
quotequote all
rogerhudson said:
SebastienClement said:
It occurred to me that I don't really know how to sit properly in the car. All I do, is get myself relatively comfy, check I can see things in the mirrors and off I go.

What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?

I find my forearms ache if I drive any distance with my hands at 10-2... is it likely I have the steering wheel set too high?

Any pointers on what I should be looking out for, to make sure I'm sat correctly?
In an old EVO article on the Maserati tipo 250 there is a lovely photo of J M Fangio , surely the greatest of drivers, at the Old Nurbergring German GP(photo by Klematski)and his arms show perfect angle with the wheel, his head angle is just right as well. 180 mph without a safety harness.
Well, in those days if you crashed it was better to be thrown out than to be caught inside a squashed and potentially burning wreck. Bike racers often seem to survive high speed crashes, too.

LanceRS

2,171 posts

136 months

Wednesday 18th December 2013
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Just thought I'd add my bit. Ideally you should be seated so that none of the controls are a stretch. I sit upright (most people immediately move the seat again if they after me) in the same manner as a touring car/rally driver. That way, all the steering and gear changing is done with my arms, not my upper body. Being closer to he pedals means the same for the legs. Basically, when I am driving, my body stays pretty much still, my limbs doing all the work.
Might all sound a bit weird, but once you get used to it, it's much better.
On the subject of cars that I cannot get comfortable in, my 1998 328 sport coupe, cannot get the back rest upright enough. Ford Puma is among many that if I get the seating comfortable, I cannot see the dials past the steering wheel.
I'm about 6", 34" inside leg and always thought of myself as rather average.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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p1esk said:
Are you saying that hand positions of 8 - 4 should never be used?
Of course not, but it shouldn't be the default position.

Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Wednesday 25th December 2013
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rogerhudson said:
Sitting practically on the floor is another stupid idea.
That's the only way to be comfy & in control though. I hate the way modern cars make you feel like your sat on a dining chair over the car rather than in it. It makes it impossible to drive them easily & properly. It's one of the many reasons I only buy older cars.

p1esk

4,914 posts

195 months

Thursday 26th December 2013
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Zod said:
p1esk said:
Are you saying that hand positions of 8 - 4 should never be used?
Of course not, but it shouldn't be the default position.
No, I was not suggesting it should be the default position, but merely trying to suggest that it shouldn't be dismissed, er, out of hand, so to speak. tongue out

I think we are actually agreeing. cool

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Thursday 26th December 2013
quotequote all
Hooli said:
rogerhudson said:
Sitting practically on the floor is another stupid idea.
That's the only way to be comfy & in control though. I hate the way modern cars make you feel like your sat on a dining chair over the car rather than in it. It makes it impossible to drive them easily & properly. It's one of the many reasons I only buy older cars.
Made me think of this which I just saw in the the "under the skin" thread!
http://www.eurocarnews.com/media/pictorials/2503/1...

I'd agree with Hooli. The modern upright position in most cars is pretty naff IMO.

Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Thursday 26th December 2013
quotequote all
CrutyRammers said:
Hooli said:
rogerhudson said:
Sitting practically on the floor is another stupid idea.
That's the only way to be comfy & in control though. I hate the way modern cars make you feel like your sat on a dining chair over the car rather than in it. It makes it impossible to drive them easily & properly. It's one of the many reasons I only buy older cars.
Made me think of this which I just saw in the the "under the skin" thread!
http://www.eurocarnews.com/media/pictorials/2503/1...

I'd agree with Hooli. The modern upright position in most cars is pretty naff IMO.
That's a touch too low for me hehe

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 27th December 2013
quotequote all
CrutyRammers said:
Hooli said:
rogerhudson said:
Sitting practically on the floor is another stupid idea.
That's the only way to be comfy & in control though. I hate the way modern cars make you feel like your sat on a dining chair over the car rather than in it. It makes it impossible to drive them easily & properly. It's one of the many reasons I only buy older cars.
Made me think of this which I just saw in the the "under the skin" thread!
http://www.eurocarnews.com/media/pictorials/2503/1...

I'd agree with Hooli. The modern upright position in most cars is pretty naff IMO.
yes I agree. It's so much easier to control a car through corners when you're down near the roll centre, rather than towering above it. The modern upright position is also not very good for you as it puts pressure on your lower back and reduces the angle between your foot and shin, straining your calf muscle. I presume this fashion to sit high has been driven by nervous drivers who want to know where the bonnet is when manouvering at low speed - I can see their point but once you're above 10mph it's an awful position to be stuck in, both for car control and comfort. Most modern cars of Golf size or larger allow you to lower the seat to a more natural position, but sadly many of these cars angle the instruments up at a higher position meaning you can't really see them properly from low down.

Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Friday 27th December 2013
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yes I always get back & leg ache in modern cars, funny how I don't in old ones even with worn out seats etc.

Foppo

2,344 posts

123 months

Sunday 12th January 2014
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I don't like to sit to far from the steering wheel.Arms bend.Seats in this car are very comfortable and a arm rest.

25NAD90TUL

666 posts

130 months

Sunday 12th January 2014
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From John Miles:
'With your back firmly against the back of the seat you should be able to hold the top of the steering wheel with straight arms. Once adjusted to that position drop the hands to a position around ten to two or quarter to three on the wheel and you should be in a comfortable, relaxed position.'

Old advice but I think still applicable today.

Glosphil

4,337 posts

233 months

Monday 13th January 2014
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waremark said:
Well, in those days if you crashed it was better to be thrown out than to be caught inside a squashed and potentially burning wreck. Bike racers often seem to survive high speed crashes, too.
Not many drivers of road cars wear the sort of 'armour' and helmets that are normal for bike racers to wear. A driver's protection is the car structure/interior not his clothing.