The future of Advanced Driving.
Discussion
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
johnao said:
GDE has relevance only for new drivers undergoing driver training for the first time ... However, if someone is able to disabuse me of this notion I'm happy to listen.
Well I'm not a new driver and it works for me in an emergency response situation (as it has done for others). Reflecting on problems I was experiencing at lower levels, led to a realisation that they stemmed from higher level weaknesses. That awareness leads to me being able to deal with them by recognising the situations that pre-empt & lead to my problems, so that in future I can deploy an effective intervention strategy in order that the problem does not get to the stage of manifesting itself in my driving.An example.
An urgent assistance shout from a colleague provokes an emotional response (that's because of my personal make up in level 4). That emotional response clouds judgement & potentially leads to greater risk taking (journey specific level 3) & effects decisions made in the interaction with & management of other traffic situations (level 2) & my vehicle handling (level 1). Recognition of this previously happening & reflecting on the adverse outcomes that have happened with other colleagues in that situation & the subsequent traumatic effects on their personal lives, provides an impetus for change by personalising such negatives outcomes & applying the potential negative consequences of them to my life & the future I desire. That leads to the development of an intervention & coping mechanism built around those factors, so that when that urgent assistance call comes in the future & I'm at the psychological crossroads, there is an effective plan to be implemented which diverts me from an undesirable path to a desirable path.
I shall be grateful if you would address the wider issues that I raised.
You said that GDE was only relevant for new drivers under going driver training for the first time, I'm categorically stating that is not so.
25NAD90TUL said:
The idea (well fact actually) that the vast majority of drivers have no wish whatsoever to further develop their own driving is the nub of all this. It's fine coming up with good ideas regarding driver training but the training has to be taken up by the drivers otherwise the best teaching techniques available will not achieve very much.
That's why you start with learners & use a method that promotes critical reflection & empowers them to self coach.
vonhosen said:
That's why you start with learners & use a method that promotes critical reflection & empowers them to self coach.
Sounds great in theory Von but do you really think they will be interested? What is going to motivate them to improve post-test?Critical reflection and self-coaching, that is self-coaching in the good/safe aspects of driving doesn't sound like the majority of drivers to me, also from what I've seen most just laugh about near misses and mistakes, even convictions and accidents, imo critical reflection as regards most drivers is a romantic notion existing mostly in the imagination of those who would like it to happen.
While I agree 100% with the ideas and methods of training you are advocating, I can't see where the interest in this is going to come from, apart from in those like us who are already 'converted'.
I reckon, just like the DSA training currently, it's mostly going to go in the bin along with the L-plates once the initial test is passed, or in the case of AD training perhaps not, although a lot reckon all that goes in the bin too once the badge has been acquired.
As you know I feel as though these things shouldn't be reliant on the interest of the candidate but should be compulsory, as in regular retesting.
I also think that already new drivers self-coach, just more likely to be self-coaching over some technique they heard about in max power rather than anything safety or responsibility related.
To summarise I think the GDE stuff you have outlined is all good stuff, I just don't know where the interest/motivation to improve (improve as we see it) is going to come from post-test, unless we're talking about drivers who would consider AD training, (a completely different mindset imo) which I don't think you are. There's no point me repeating what I wrote in that long post but I think most drivers just want a license and have no interest in further development whatever the training method used initially.
I agree they will self-coach, but I think that'll be more along the lines of something they've done on Gran Turismo for PS4 or seen on Rallying programmes, Ken Block etc, than anything else.
Okay, so what somebody needs to do is to deliver, to all Learners for free, unique video and written learning materials with high quality content, covering GDE levels 1-4, that has been critiqued by experts, which will create a paradigm shift in the abilities of new drivers, so making any post test training for road driving unnecessary and obsolete.
Then make sure that it's cool and delivered in such a way that gets it to go viral amongst those that are learning to drive, while supplying an army of instructors / coaches who will enable those who are learning to be able to do so in a supportive and non judgmental way and hence create a new generation of uber drivers.
All this will of course need to be done while making the average cost of getting a licence cheaper, and with a goal of a 100% pass rate for those who take it up.
I think I could do that, but I could do with a little help.
Who's with me?
I'd like at least ten by the end of the weekend.
Then make sure that it's cool and delivered in such a way that gets it to go viral amongst those that are learning to drive, while supplying an army of instructors / coaches who will enable those who are learning to be able to do so in a supportive and non judgmental way and hence create a new generation of uber drivers.
All this will of course need to be done while making the average cost of getting a licence cheaper, and with a goal of a 100% pass rate for those who take it up.
I think I could do that, but I could do with a little help.
Who's with me?
I'd like at least ten by the end of the weekend.
vonhosen said:
Not what I might do, an example of what I have done.
You said that GDE was only relevant for new drivers under going driver training for the first time, I'm categorically stating that is not so.
You overlook the full context of what I said which was... OK, so, forgetting about the minuscule numbers of qualified drivers undergoing further training, in reality, GDE has relevance only for new drivers undergoing driver training for the first time, and whose trainers are applying the GDE matrix to their training schedule. In which case, I am sceptical about the efficacy of the level 4 questions under the heading of "self-assessment for continuous improvement" with regard to the training of 17 to 20 year olds. I get the impression from most of my ADI acquaintances that most 17 to 20 year olds are only interested in obtaining a driving licence with as little effort and cost as possible. I don't think they're terribly interested in navel gazing about their lifestyles and values and how that might affect their driving. However, if someone is able to disabuse me of this notion I'm happy to listen. I think we're about 10 years into GDE, so, does anyone have any evidence, research etc into whether GDE is altering young drivers' attitudes and behaviour. You said that GDE was only relevant for new drivers under going driver training for the first time, I'm categorically stating that is not so.
You, me and the rest of this forum community are the "miniscule numbers" that I referred to. Yet, in response to the question I posed about the relevance of GDE higher levels for the vast majority of learner drivers you proceed to tell us how GDE works for you. We know it works for you [one of the minuscule numbers]. How could we possibly think otherwise? What I would like to know, from you, is how we are going to make training at the higher levels of GDE relevant, comprehensible and "cool" for the vast majority of younger drivers out there, not the .01% of the driving community who are already involved in further driver training. Until such time as someone can come up with an answer to this question I remain sceptical of its relevance and efficacy with regard to the vast majority of young drivers. Trashbat has already ceded that he can't be bothered to give me an answer and you have simply attempted to justify why you avoided an answer in the first place.
Unlike Trashbat, I trust that you can be bothered to address the question posed, or disabuse me of my opinion with a relevant and coherent argument. Just because I have doubts about the relevance of the higher levels of GDE in the training of young drivers doesn't mean I don't believe that it has relevance for the likes of you and me.
Edited by johnao on Friday 7th February 00:55
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
Not what I might do, an example of what I have done.
You said that GDE was only relevant for new drivers under going driver training for the first time, I'm categorically stating that is not so.
You overlook the full context of what I said which was... OK, so, forgetting about the minuscule numbers of qualified drivers undergoing further training, in reality, GDE has relevance only for new drivers undergoing driver training for the first time, and whose trainers are applying the GDE matrix to their training schedule. In which case, I am sceptical about the efficacy of the level 4 questions under the heading of "self-assessment for continuous improvement" with regard to the training of 17 to 20 year olds. I get the impression from most of my ADI acquaintances that most 17 to 20 year olds are only interested in obtaining a driving licence with as little effort and cost as possible. I don't think they're terribly interested in navel gazing about their lifestyles and values and how that might affect their driving. However, if someone is able to disabuse me of this notion I'm happy to listen. I think we're about 10 years into GDE, so, does anyone have any evidence, research etc into whether GDE is altering young drivers' attitudes and behaviour. You said that GDE was only relevant for new drivers under going driver training for the first time, I'm categorically stating that is not so.
You, me and the rest of this forum community are the "miniscule numbers" that I referred to. Yet, in response to the question I posed about the relevance of GDE higher levels for the vast majority of learner drivers you proceed to tell us how GDE works for you. We know it works for you [one of the minuscule numbers]. How could we possibly think otherwise? What I would like to know, from you, is how we are going to make training at the higher levels of GDE relevant, comprehensible and "cool" for the vast majority of younger drivers out there, not the .01% of the driving community who are already involved in further driver training. Until such time as someone can come up with an answer to this question I remain sceptical of its relevance and efficacy with regard to the vast majority of young drivers. Trashbat has already ceded that he can't be bothered to give me an answer and you have simply attempted to justify why you avoided an answer in the first place.
Unlike Trashbat, I trust that you can be bothered to address the question posed, or disabuse me of my opinion with a relevant and coherent argument. Just because I have doubts about the relevance of the higher levels of GDE in the training of young drivers doesn't mean I don't believe that it has relevance for the likes of you and me.
It's 'cool' for them because instead of being treated like children 'don't do that' , 'I said do this', they are treated like adults 'what do you think about....'
johnao said:
Trashbat has already ceded that he can't be bothered to give me an answer and you have simply attempted to justify why you avoided an answer in the first place.
Well, I'm sorry that we didn't answer the bit of the question you were interested in, but I can't be bothered because your attitude is bizarrely aggressive and combative. It's the conversational equivalent of asking a question, listening to the answers and then shouting 'not interested!'. I know it's PH but everyone here has an interest in improving the state of driver training, and I know from elsewhere that Von thoroughly knows his s
t.25NAD90TUL said:
To summarise I think the GDE stuff you have outlined is all good stuff, I just don't know where the interest/motivation to improve (improve as we see it) is going to come from post-test, unless we're talking about drivers who would consider AD training, (a completely different mindset imo) which I don't think you are. There's no point me repeating what I wrote in that long post but I think most drivers just want a license and have no interest in further development whatever the training method used initially.
This is the fundamental problem, I agree, but again there must be steps to bettering the current setup - which I see as being 'do what I say, do what I say, do what I say, oh look you've passed, we're done'. Some ADIs are at pains to point out that what you've just learnt is limited and leaves you as a barely skilled novice, but not all, and it's not systemic. Maybe the gains from that would be marginal but I'd take marginal.Perhaps ironically, you see this again with IAM - for the average person, what happens at the end of SfL? They have a new badge to wear and they go away thinking that's it. I know why that happens but it's not helpful in terms of encouraging development, and neither is the DSA pass.
I think the even more difficult bit is you need to engage with new drivers at a meaningful stage. I'm sure some here have done this, but I think if you went from DSA immediately to IAM, you wouldn't benefit as much since it requires a degree of personal experience.
More of a gripe than an answer I'm afraid. I feel that if this is going to be solved, it's to be addressed primarily by the structure of the system, and then GDE is the force that makes that actually work.
trashbat said:
I can't be bothered because your attitude is bizarrely aggressive and combative. It's the conversational equivalent of asking a question, listening to the answers and then shouting 'not interested!'. I know it's PH but everyone here has an interest in improving the state of driver training, and I know from elsewhere that Von thoroughly knows his st.
No, not... bizarrely aggressive and combative, it was just exasperation that no was giving me any coherent explanation as to how GDE levels 3 & 4 will be applied to young, learner, drivers. I hesitate to use the word bizarrely again, but, bizarrely, since expressing my exasperation in print, I'm delighted to read that Vonhosen and yourself have given us/me a reasoned explanation as to how you see the GDE approach being implemented. Only time will tell if the GDE approach will be successful. t.It wasn't me who shouted not interested at the answers given because there were no answers given to the specific question that I asked.
I have no doubt that Vonhosen thoroughly knows his... But, that doesn't preclude me, or anyone else for that matter, questioning, analysing and deconstructing what may be presented as absolute truth or what may turn out to be the latest fad. Until a process is rigorously analysed and questioned we, as individuals, have no idea as to its relevance or efficacy.
Long live PH!
SVS said:
I can see this thread is really going to encourage people to take up advanced driving 
Personally, people joining 'advanced driving' clubs to get a certificate is less important than seeing better driving at grass roots level (or even across the board) & fewer collisions amongst new/inexperienced drivers.SVS said:
Von, I agree. However, this thread was titled "The future of advanced driving".
I've said before that I don't like the term at all, I believe it creates barriers. The future of advanced driving (in my view) is better driving over a wider group. i.e. increased standards over a wider base & a different criteria for measurement of those standards.
25NAD90TUL said:
The idea (well fact actually) that the vast majority of drivers have no wish whatsoever to further develop their own driving is the nub of all this. It's fine coming up with good ideas regarding driver training but the training has to be taken up by the drivers otherwise the best teaching techniques available will not achieve very much.
With us here, we have all taken a pride and interest in this activity, myself I had an ADI who was ex-police who turned me on to the concept of AD, he gave me an old copy of Roadcraft and John Miles' book 'Expert driving the Police way' and these two books influenced my driving a great deal, I worked in the trade and drove Bangers and Stock Cars and was very interested in driving as an activity, like all of us who have taken AD training the desire to be a good driver was high on my list of priorities, being mad on cars in those days the whole gammut was one of my main interests. I wasn't interested in safety in those days, I was motivated by the wish to go quickly and wanted to know how to get the best out of a vehicle by having good control and cornering ability, from John Miles' book I learned about reading the road conditions (surfaces etc), I wanted to push the car and having the knowledge of mechanics that I was developing at the time the gear-changing techniques, braking techniques, steering etc were the things I was very interested in. Once I'd binned the L-plates I continued to have a lesson once a week, I enjoyed the company of my instructor Tony and he recommended we do some mway driving post test so we did that and as I have a questioning personality I would ask about advanced techniques and learned a hell of a lot very quickly in my driving career, I had no interest in taking the RoSPA test as I didn't like the idea of the Police involvement much at that time. Later I went into Engine assembly at RR and found it very boring compared to my apprenticeship in a back-street garage where I had the opportunity to drive customers cars, all different ones, on a regular basis. I came to meet a guy through local car auctions who was in Road-Test, he said that it was a good crack but you had to do your advanced test to get in, knowing what I already did from Tony and the books I decided to have a go and did ok and subsequently changed job. Again this move was motivated not by safety but a desire to get in some class motors and have some fun and relieve the boredom I was suffering from.
Now it's a fact I'm sure we'll all agree that an interest in being safe isn't really a priority for a youth, the safety side of RoSPA was really nothing I had any interest in, and this is the rub. I'm sure we all agree that the responsibility and safety side starts to develop after becoming a parent. So at 21 I started carrying my family in the car and this lead to a very different approach to my drive. However when not carrying them I still drove, err, how can I put it, not exactly with safety as a priority, ahem, until my children were old enough to actually be out playing and crossing roads etc, only then did the idea of driving safely become ingrained, the subconscious thought of mowing down someone's kid, or my own getting mown down began to become part of my thought on driving, the responsibility that, in the majority of cases I feel comes with maturity.
Anyway I left the motor trade as a career and did 5 years full-time uni, although I still kept my hand in at a couple of back-street garages, needs must and all that, had zero finances at the time. Years later I decided to do the IAM to just see if I was as good as I thought I was and again did ok. When on-road I am happy with my driving, I'm sure I'm not the best and speed is never a priority or an interest anymore, I feel safe and take responsibility and pride, I'm more about steering and gear-changing these days than pushing vehicles in bends or going quickly, plus I relocated to Cornwall where life has a much, much slower pace and driving is much more laid back.
So the point is I was interested, driving was never a means to an end, cars and driving were an interest rather than just a means of getting to work and the shops etc. Once behind the wheel I wanted to be part of the machine and have mastery of the controls and conditions. This situation I'm sure we here can all identify with, we've all spent money taking further training becuase of broadly similar reasons to the ones I've outlined. We've seen and admired good driving, we probably all like F1, Bangers, Stocks, 4x4, Rallying etc. This doesn't apply to everyone who drives however. A great many see driving as a chore, the drive to work say, probably tired and grouchy, maybe a little late, mind is on other stuff, the row with the wife last night or the kids playing up. Imagine the mild-mannered family man, never breaks the law or would even dream of doing, responsible and caring in every way, yet turns into a monster immediately on getting in the car, rage, aggression, everyone else is an idiot, he or she may even come close to eliminating someone or committing suicide on a daily basis, what other circumstances may a perfectly normal, law-abiding citizen beome an habitual law-breaker and close on a killer, regularly? Not many I imagine.
The type of person outlined in the preceeding paragraph is never going to spend any cash or have any desire to do any further training, they aren't like us here, interested in improving. Furthermore, where we are constantly developing and striving to be the best we can for the reasons outlined above and know what good driving is and where we may fall short of our own targets and would like to get better, the person in the previous paragraph believes themselves, in a great many cases, to be an absolute demon behind the wheel and probably believes they are well above the standard of someone who is prepared to take on some further training. 'Who d'you think you are Sterling Moss?' It isn't a joke, they really do think they're that good, when they fall off the road or hit someone or something, it's usually the roads' fault or the other drivers' or when they get done by the fuzz it's always the fuzz or the government that is at fault. It's like speeding gatsos and Police patrols, if you're not seeing them before they get you how likely are you to see that kid that's about to run in front of you or that person on auto pilot who's just realised they are going to have to brake, heavily?
These types of person you are never going to get, period. It matters little what new teaching methods are out there or new ideas in terms of technique, they aren't volunteering, and you have to pay for training. When I have mentioned AD to acquaintances (I don't do that anymore) the response is invariably 'what do you want to do that for?' In their own minds they probably believe they are well better driver than I and everybody else on the roads, these attitudes aren't limited to 17 year olds, some of the most irresponsible drivers I've ever seen are middle aged Mums and Dads, ime at least most young drivers have some level of interest in driving whereas their parents couldn't care less and that attitude rubs off as well.
Imo there is only one answer, further training has to be compulsory period. Now I'm touching on party politics, my pet hate, we all know no party is going to commit political suicide by implementing compulsory driver further training. To me every driver should be driving to at least IAM/RoSPA standard, but like I say no party is going to introduce this as it would be instant death to whoever did, imo, and I don't want to start on my political beliefs, one of the reasons why party politics is an absolute sham, christ they'd be compared to the Nazis if they dared even suggest it.
It has to be made compulsory right across the board in my opinion, forget making it 'cool' or desirable by seducing them with candy, this has been tried by someone when they gave those Bristol kids carting sessions if they went with IAM observers, they wouldn't have done it otherwise.
If you had to retake your test perhaps every five years and your license depended on it, oh and forget advanced, even if it was just to DSA standard it would be an improvement, millions would fail. Perhaps if then it was marked against a criteria, say level 1, 2 etc, and your score was directly related to your insurance premium and the size of car you were allowed to drive it might improve the situation. Nothing is going to make people take training on a voluntary basis apart from the things outlined in my case which I'm sure includes many of us here.
Best wishes and apologies for this long-winded epistle!
Your attitude towards cyclists marks you down as a dangerous driver, prejudice has no place in advanced driving.With us here, we have all taken a pride and interest in this activity, myself I had an ADI who was ex-police who turned me on to the concept of AD, he gave me an old copy of Roadcraft and John Miles' book 'Expert driving the Police way' and these two books influenced my driving a great deal, I worked in the trade and drove Bangers and Stock Cars and was very interested in driving as an activity, like all of us who have taken AD training the desire to be a good driver was high on my list of priorities, being mad on cars in those days the whole gammut was one of my main interests. I wasn't interested in safety in those days, I was motivated by the wish to go quickly and wanted to know how to get the best out of a vehicle by having good control and cornering ability, from John Miles' book I learned about reading the road conditions (surfaces etc), I wanted to push the car and having the knowledge of mechanics that I was developing at the time the gear-changing techniques, braking techniques, steering etc were the things I was very interested in. Once I'd binned the L-plates I continued to have a lesson once a week, I enjoyed the company of my instructor Tony and he recommended we do some mway driving post test so we did that and as I have a questioning personality I would ask about advanced techniques and learned a hell of a lot very quickly in my driving career, I had no interest in taking the RoSPA test as I didn't like the idea of the Police involvement much at that time. Later I went into Engine assembly at RR and found it very boring compared to my apprenticeship in a back-street garage where I had the opportunity to drive customers cars, all different ones, on a regular basis. I came to meet a guy through local car auctions who was in Road-Test, he said that it was a good crack but you had to do your advanced test to get in, knowing what I already did from Tony and the books I decided to have a go and did ok and subsequently changed job. Again this move was motivated not by safety but a desire to get in some class motors and have some fun and relieve the boredom I was suffering from.
Now it's a fact I'm sure we'll all agree that an interest in being safe isn't really a priority for a youth, the safety side of RoSPA was really nothing I had any interest in, and this is the rub. I'm sure we all agree that the responsibility and safety side starts to develop after becoming a parent. So at 21 I started carrying my family in the car and this lead to a very different approach to my drive. However when not carrying them I still drove, err, how can I put it, not exactly with safety as a priority, ahem, until my children were old enough to actually be out playing and crossing roads etc, only then did the idea of driving safely become ingrained, the subconscious thought of mowing down someone's kid, or my own getting mown down began to become part of my thought on driving, the responsibility that, in the majority of cases I feel comes with maturity.
Anyway I left the motor trade as a career and did 5 years full-time uni, although I still kept my hand in at a couple of back-street garages, needs must and all that, had zero finances at the time. Years later I decided to do the IAM to just see if I was as good as I thought I was and again did ok. When on-road I am happy with my driving, I'm sure I'm not the best and speed is never a priority or an interest anymore, I feel safe and take responsibility and pride, I'm more about steering and gear-changing these days than pushing vehicles in bends or going quickly, plus I relocated to Cornwall where life has a much, much slower pace and driving is much more laid back.
So the point is I was interested, driving was never a means to an end, cars and driving were an interest rather than just a means of getting to work and the shops etc. Once behind the wheel I wanted to be part of the machine and have mastery of the controls and conditions. This situation I'm sure we here can all identify with, we've all spent money taking further training becuase of broadly similar reasons to the ones I've outlined. We've seen and admired good driving, we probably all like F1, Bangers, Stocks, 4x4, Rallying etc. This doesn't apply to everyone who drives however. A great many see driving as a chore, the drive to work say, probably tired and grouchy, maybe a little late, mind is on other stuff, the row with the wife last night or the kids playing up. Imagine the mild-mannered family man, never breaks the law or would even dream of doing, responsible and caring in every way, yet turns into a monster immediately on getting in the car, rage, aggression, everyone else is an idiot, he or she may even come close to eliminating someone or committing suicide on a daily basis, what other circumstances may a perfectly normal, law-abiding citizen beome an habitual law-breaker and close on a killer, regularly? Not many I imagine.
The type of person outlined in the preceeding paragraph is never going to spend any cash or have any desire to do any further training, they aren't like us here, interested in improving. Furthermore, where we are constantly developing and striving to be the best we can for the reasons outlined above and know what good driving is and where we may fall short of our own targets and would like to get better, the person in the previous paragraph believes themselves, in a great many cases, to be an absolute demon behind the wheel and probably believes they are well above the standard of someone who is prepared to take on some further training. 'Who d'you think you are Sterling Moss?' It isn't a joke, they really do think they're that good, when they fall off the road or hit someone or something, it's usually the roads' fault or the other drivers' or when they get done by the fuzz it's always the fuzz or the government that is at fault. It's like speeding gatsos and Police patrols, if you're not seeing them before they get you how likely are you to see that kid that's about to run in front of you or that person on auto pilot who's just realised they are going to have to brake, heavily?
These types of person you are never going to get, period. It matters little what new teaching methods are out there or new ideas in terms of technique, they aren't volunteering, and you have to pay for training. When I have mentioned AD to acquaintances (I don't do that anymore) the response is invariably 'what do you want to do that for?' In their own minds they probably believe they are well better driver than I and everybody else on the roads, these attitudes aren't limited to 17 year olds, some of the most irresponsible drivers I've ever seen are middle aged Mums and Dads, ime at least most young drivers have some level of interest in driving whereas their parents couldn't care less and that attitude rubs off as well.
Imo there is only one answer, further training has to be compulsory period. Now I'm touching on party politics, my pet hate, we all know no party is going to commit political suicide by implementing compulsory driver further training. To me every driver should be driving to at least IAM/RoSPA standard, but like I say no party is going to introduce this as it would be instant death to whoever did, imo, and I don't want to start on my political beliefs, one of the reasons why party politics is an absolute sham, christ they'd be compared to the Nazis if they dared even suggest it.
It has to be made compulsory right across the board in my opinion, forget making it 'cool' or desirable by seducing them with candy, this has been tried by someone when they gave those Bristol kids carting sessions if they went with IAM observers, they wouldn't have done it otherwise.
If you had to retake your test perhaps every five years and your license depended on it, oh and forget advanced, even if it was just to DSA standard it would be an improvement, millions would fail. Perhaps if then it was marked against a criteria, say level 1, 2 etc, and your score was directly related to your insurance premium and the size of car you were allowed to drive it might improve the situation. Nothing is going to make people take training on a voluntary basis apart from the things outlined in my case which I'm sure includes many of us here.
Best wishes and apologies for this long-winded epistle!
Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Thursday 6th February 06:51
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
vonhosen said:
SVS said:
I can see this thread is really going to encourage people to take up advanced driving
Personally, people joining 'advanced driving' clubs to get a certificate is less important than seeing better driving at grass roots level (or even across the board) & fewer collisions amongst new/inexperienced drivers.pass plus was a sound idea but 6 -12 contact hours isn't enough especially immediately after the DSA test and in a broadly immature group of potential students - hence the lack of positive impact on crash stats and insurance claims.
mph1977 said:
vonhosen said:
SVS said:
I can see this thread is really going to encourage people to take up advanced driving
Personally, people joining 'advanced driving' clubs to get a certificate is less important than seeing better driving at grass roots level (or even across the board) & fewer collisions amongst new/inexperienced drivers.pass plus was a sound idea but 6 -12 contact hours isn't enough especially immediately after the DSA test and in a broadly immature group of potential students - hence the lack of positive impact on crash stats and insurance claims.
WinstonWolf said:
25NAD90TUL said:
The idea...
Your attitude towards cyclists marks you down as a dangerous driver, prejudice has no place in advanced driving.http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
PS: 25NAD90TUL, if it wasn't ironic humour you should be tied to the back of a bicycle and dragged through the streets of London, through red traffic lights, along pavements, up and down kerbs, dodge and weave through slow moving traffic, that'll teach you to respect your betters! Maybe you might even buy yourself a bicycle.
johnao said:
Come on Winston, don't take it so seriously! There's always a place for ironic humour, even on PistonHeads.
PS: 25NAD90TUL, if it wasn't ironic humour you should be tied to the back of a bicycle and dragged through the streets of London, through red traffic lights, along pavements, up and down kerbs, dodge and weave through slow moving traffic, that'll teach you to respect your betters! Maybe you might even buy yourself a bicycle.
I won't respond to Rob's post but will to yours johnao.PS: 25NAD90TUL, if it wasn't ironic humour you should be tied to the back of a bicycle and dragged through the streets of London, through red traffic lights, along pavements, up and down kerbs, dodge and weave through slow moving traffic, that'll teach you to respect your betters! Maybe you might even buy yourself a bicycle.
It was a rhetorical post that worked both to illustrate the pathetic attitude exhibited to cyclists by drivers, and the gullibility of cyclists in responding to deliberately provocative posts. The clever ones spotted it quickly but the not so clever ones walked into it eyes wide shut.
It worked in deadly fashion on both levels, as exhibited in the thread.
It was outted immediately as a comedy post by irocfan, but still a lot didn't get the idea and showed themselves up as a result. Especially when an unfortunate individual with Cerebral Palsy was brought into it, I fancied a laugh with it but decided to keep out of it after that, the bottom of the barrel was well and truly scraped.
I've been a cyclist since 1973.
25NAD90TUL said:
johnao said:
Come on Winston, don't take it so seriously! There's always a place for ironic humour, even on PistonHeads.
PS: 25NAD90TUL, if it wasn't ironic humour you should be tied to the back of a bicycle and dragged through the streets of London, through red traffic lights, along pavements, up and down kerbs, dodge and weave through slow moving traffic, that'll teach you to respect your betters! Maybe you might even buy yourself a bicycle.
I won't respond to Rob's post but will to yours johnao.PS: 25NAD90TUL, if it wasn't ironic humour you should be tied to the back of a bicycle and dragged through the streets of London, through red traffic lights, along pavements, up and down kerbs, dodge and weave through slow moving traffic, that'll teach you to respect your betters! Maybe you might even buy yourself a bicycle.
It was a rhetorical post that worked both to illustrate the pathetic attitude exhibited to cyclists by drivers, and the gullibility of cyclists in responding to deliberately provocative posts. The clever ones spotted it quickly but the not so clever ones walked into it eyes wide shut.
It worked in deadly fashion on both levels, as exhibited in the thread.
It was outted immediately as a comedy post by irocfan, but still a lot didn't get the idea and showed themselves up as a result. Especially when an unfortunate individual with Cerebral Palsy was brought into it, I fancied a laugh with it but decided to keep out of it after that, the bottom of the barrel was well and truly scraped.
I've been a cyclist since 1973.
So you're backtracking are you?
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