The future of Advanced Driving.
Discussion
In the workplace (mine, sorry to hark back to it), accidents and incidents are investigated, root cause (and contributing factors) are identified, and preventative measures (where possible) are put in place to (hopefully) ensure that the circumstances that caused the accident/incident will not re-ocurr. Without banging on too much, with regard to risk, we apply the principle of 'ALARP' - as low as reasonably practical.
The vast majority of health and saftey legislation, the framework of regulations, and the numerous 'approved code of practice' that supports each have come about as a result (in simple terms) of 'lessons learnt', invariably from accidents that have involved fatality.
Training is an ongoing process, and focusses on the safety aspect of tasks, expressions such as 'do it safely or not at all' and 'there is always time to do it right' are an ever present thought.
So, having identified where high risk exists, awareness of the presence of these risks in differing situations becomes the basis of safety training.
Going back to root cause, and applying this to road traffic accidents, it seems to me (based on the information below) that multiple courses targetting specific high risk areas/groups (e.g young people, people at work) may be better than a single 'Advanced Driver' course. (These may of course already exist). Young people in particular would benefit massively from further road saftey training, and car control, but I can easily see why (leaving cost aside) they would not be attracted to, for example, 'The Institute of Advanced Motorists'. I mean it does sound more like something 'Dad' would be in to
Anyway, I've nicked this from the RoSPA website, hope they don't mind.
From RoSPA website:
Today, Great Britain has one of the best road safety records in Europe and the world. Despite massive increases in traffic over the last few decades, the number of people killed on our roads has fallen from around 5,500 per year in the mid 1980s to 1,754 in 2012. However, this still means that around five people die on Britain's roads every day.
Sadly, driver error remains the most common cause of road accidents.
Speeding
Around 400 people a year are killed in crashes in which someone exceeds the speed limit or drives too fast for the conditions.
Drink Driving
Around 280 people die a year in crashes in which someone was over the legal drink drive limit.
Seat Belt Wearing
Around 300 lives each year could be saved if everyone always wore their seat belt.
Careless Driving
Around 300 deaths a year involve someone being "careless, reckless or in a hurry", and a further 125 involve "aggressive driving".
At-work
Around one third of fatal and serious road crashes involve someone who was at work.
Inexperience
More than 400 people are killed in crashes involving young car drivers aged 17 to 24 years, every year, including over 150 young drivers, 90 passengers and more than 170 other road users.
Failed to Look Properly
40% of road crashes involve someone who 'failed to look properly'.
Loss of Control
One third of fatal crashes involved 'loss of control' of a vehicle.
Failed to Judge Other Person's Path/Speed
One in five crashes involve a road user failing to judge another person's path or speed.
The vast majority of health and saftey legislation, the framework of regulations, and the numerous 'approved code of practice' that supports each have come about as a result (in simple terms) of 'lessons learnt', invariably from accidents that have involved fatality.
Training is an ongoing process, and focusses on the safety aspect of tasks, expressions such as 'do it safely or not at all' and 'there is always time to do it right' are an ever present thought.
So, having identified where high risk exists, awareness of the presence of these risks in differing situations becomes the basis of safety training.
Going back to root cause, and applying this to road traffic accidents, it seems to me (based on the information below) that multiple courses targetting specific high risk areas/groups (e.g young people, people at work) may be better than a single 'Advanced Driver' course. (These may of course already exist). Young people in particular would benefit massively from further road saftey training, and car control, but I can easily see why (leaving cost aside) they would not be attracted to, for example, 'The Institute of Advanced Motorists'. I mean it does sound more like something 'Dad' would be in to
Anyway, I've nicked this from the RoSPA website, hope they don't mind.
From RoSPA website:
Today, Great Britain has one of the best road safety records in Europe and the world. Despite massive increases in traffic over the last few decades, the number of people killed on our roads has fallen from around 5,500 per year in the mid 1980s to 1,754 in 2012. However, this still means that around five people die on Britain's roads every day.
Sadly, driver error remains the most common cause of road accidents.
Speeding
Around 400 people a year are killed in crashes in which someone exceeds the speed limit or drives too fast for the conditions.
Drink Driving
Around 280 people die a year in crashes in which someone was over the legal drink drive limit.
Seat Belt Wearing
Around 300 lives each year could be saved if everyone always wore their seat belt.
Careless Driving
Around 300 deaths a year involve someone being "careless, reckless or in a hurry", and a further 125 involve "aggressive driving".
At-work
Around one third of fatal and serious road crashes involve someone who was at work.
Inexperience
More than 400 people are killed in crashes involving young car drivers aged 17 to 24 years, every year, including over 150 young drivers, 90 passengers and more than 170 other road users.
Failed to Look Properly
40% of road crashes involve someone who 'failed to look properly'.
Loss of Control
One third of fatal crashes involved 'loss of control' of a vehicle.
Failed to Judge Other Person's Path/Speed
One in five crashes involve a road user failing to judge another person's path or speed.
ChilliWhizz said:
Young people in particular would benefit massively from further road saftey training, and car control, but I can easily see why (leaving cost aside) they would not be attracted to, for example, 'The Institute of Advanced Motorists'.
The evidence is to the contrary.Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
vonhosen said:
The evidence is to the contrary.
Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
Do you mean the evidence based on road safety training or for car control? Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
vonhosen said:
ChilliWhizz said:
Young people in particular would benefit massively from further road saftey training, and car control, but I can easily see why (leaving cost aside) they would not be attracted to, for example, 'The Institute of Advanced Motorists'.
The evidence is to the contrary.Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
As regards, false confidence, this possibly suggests a failure in the training process or the way it is delivered.
'What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process' Could you elaborate on this? For example how would you 'deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour' as part of the learning process? By learning process would I be right in assuming you're referring to AD courses?
Thanks, Chilli.
GadgeS3C said:
vonhosen said:
The evidence is to the contrary.
Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
Do you mean the evidence based on road safety training or for car control? Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
vonhosen said:
GadgeS3C said:
vonhosen said:
The evidence is to the contrary.
Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
Do you mean the evidence based on road safety training or for car control? Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
ChilliWhizz said:
vonhosen said:
ChilliWhizz said:
Young people in particular would benefit massively from further road saftey training, and car control, but I can easily see why (leaving cost aside) they would not be attracted to, for example, 'The Institute of Advanced Motorists'.
The evidence is to the contrary.Training in car control (if we aren't very careful) results in worse results because of false confidence.
What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/articles%20and%20...
Look at this thread (in particular page 8 , 9th post down by Horse, in relation to aviation training).
http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic....
ChilliWhizz said:
As regards, false confidence, this possibly suggests a failure in the training process or the way it is delivered.
Yes.Traditional training has focused on the physical skill & not the underlying belief systems that dictate choices made etc.
Look up the Hermes project & GDE matrix.
The physical skills (low level) need to be accessed via the attitudes/beliefs/emotions (high level).
ChilliWhizz said:
'What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process' Could you elaborate on this? For example how would you 'deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour' as part of the learning process? By learning process would I be right in assuming you're referring to AD courses?
Thanks, Chilli.
See above.Thanks, Chilli.
The vast majority of collisions emanate from poor choices as a result of emotional or attitudinal influences, not from a lack of physical skill.
i.e. It's the attitude to the task & how it influences poor choices that underpins the problem.
The training needs to address this by examining what the candidate believes/feels, rather than the teacher telling the candidate what they believe. Rather than the teacher assuming the candidate is an empty vessel & pouring in their knowledge, it needs to treat the candidate as an acorn (that has everything within it that it needs to be a mighty oak) & just expose them to water & let them see/reach for the light. They need to be encouraged to take responsibility for their learning/choices & the outcomes of their choices (rather than the teacher taking all the responsibility).
There have been several lengthy threads about all this previously & driver training throughout Europe is moving this way, though the Police/advanced organisations appear to be moving slower than the 'learner' field.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 14th January 18:41
vonhosen said:
Teaching people car control.
There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
Hi Von, thank you for adding some input here, it is very much appreciated.There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
I was reading some interesting discourse from you recently at 'the other place' something along the lines of Chris Gilbert being mistaken over steering techniques. Please feel free to give us some insight into your recommendations apropos steering techniques, if recommendations is the right word, I know you favour 'coaching' over 'instruction' are these two concepts not synonymous with one-another? Or is it that in coaching you suggest an idea to the mentee, in order for him/her to imagine it was their own idea, whereas in instruction you simply impart your own idea as being the best and insist that it is used?
Either way I'm interested in your views on steering, what techniques or combinations of techniques do you advocate? Or are you easy as long as the desired outcomes are achieved? Do you consider pull-push as an option rather than a doctrine or is pull-push a relic from the 50s and no longer valid with modern steering technology? If so please elaborate on this point when you aren't too busy.
Thanks and looking forward to further input from your good self. Best wishes.
25NAD90TUL said:
vonhosen said:
Teaching people car control.
There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
Hi Von, thank you for adding some input here, it is very much appreciated.There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
I was reading some interesting discourse from you recently at 'the other place' something along the lines of Chris Gilbert being mistaken over steering techniques. Please feel free to give us some insight into your recommendations apropos steering techniques, if recommendations is the right word, I know you favour 'coaching' over 'instruction' are these two concepts not synonymous with one-another? Or is it that in coaching you suggest an idea to the mentee, in order for him/her to imagine it was their own idea, whereas in instruction you simply impart your own idea as being the best and insist that it is used?
Either way I'm interested in your views on steering, what techniques or combinations of techniques do you advocate? Or are you easy as long as the desired outcomes are achieved? Do you consider pull-push as an option rather than a doctrine or is pull-push a relic from the 50s and no longer valid with modern steering technology? If so please elaborate on this point when you aren't too busy.
Thanks and looking forward to further input from your good self. Best wishes.
Coaching & instruction are very different.
Coaching is a conversation about development. A conversation where we want to explore what the coachee want's to achieve, what happens now for them, what options to change are open for them & what path out of those options they wish to pursue. After they've had a go at that we'll then reflect on it & how they make sense of the experience (through thoughts/feelings) & where that leads them to next. You can see that they are at the centre of it all. What they want, what they think are the options, what they want to try, how they feel about it, what they think about it, what their choice is & what happens for them as a result. They are responsible for it all, good or bad. It's the coaches job to ask questions that make the coachee think, questions that the coachee works to answer. It's not the coaches job to provide answers.
With instruction the instructor takes all the responsibility. What we are doing today is...., This is going wrong & it's because you do this. What you need to do is do this this.
When it comes to steering I advocate doing what gives you good results. With a variety of situations, for me personally, there are likely to be a variety of what works best for me. What I aim to do is recognise the situation, the needs of the situation & the most beneficial method for me to get optimal performance in that situation at that time & then implement it well. Post event I'll reflect on the experience & learn from it. What went well, what didn't, what do I think needs changing, what options for change are there & what I'm going to try next time (if need be). Nothing promotes a desire for change in people than experiencing difficulties or feeling restricted by your chosen method. Of course not experiencing any difficulties or feeling restricted by your method is far less likely to promote a desire for change.
Pull/push is one method, better in some circumstances than it is in others. It's one I'll use at times, but I'm not tied to it.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 14th January 22:46
vonhosen said:
I don't believe I said Chris Gilbert was mistaken, he'll have his views, which he can articulate & I'll have mine. Other people can listen to what others say & decide for themselves.
Coaching & instruction are very different.
Coaching is a conversation about development. A conversation where we want to explore what the coachee want's to achieve, what happens now for them, what options to change are open for them & what path out of those options they wish to pursue. After they've had a go at that we'll then reflect on it & how they make sense of the experience (through thoughts/feelings) & where that leads them to next. You can see that they are at the centre of it all. What they want, what they think are the options, what they want to try, how they feel about it, what they think about it, what their choice is & what happens for them as a result. They are responsible for it all, good or bad.
With instruction the instructor takes all the responsibility. What we are doing today is...., This is going wrong & it's because you do this. What you need to do is do this this.
When it comes to steering I advocate doing what gives you good results. With a variety of situations, for me they'll be a variety of what works best for me. What I aim to do is recognise the situation, the needs of the situation & the most beneficial method for me to get optimal performance in that situation & then implement. Post event reflect on & learn from it. What went well, what didn't, what do I think needs changing, what options for change are there & what I'm going to try next time (if need be). Nothing promotes a desire for change in people than experiencing difficulties or feeling restricted by your chosen method. Of course not experiencing any difficulties or feeling restricted by your method is far less likely to promote a desire for change.
Pull/push is one method, better in some circumstances than it is in others. It's one I'll use at times, but I'm not tied to it.
Thanks for this valued input. Clarified a few points for me regarding coaching. Now if this had been the case at IAM I might have continued the observing. I felt the criticism of someone's drive and the giving instructions side were something I didn't feel comfortable doing. Good points on steering too, I pull-push myself but am confident with predictive or fixed input whatever name is given to it and will use them at will, I too am not tied to techniques because of dogma, although it may seem like it by some of my input regarding bgol, but I see debating bgol as a contact sport and a blood thirsty one at that, a lot of it is tongue in cheek from me.Coaching & instruction are very different.
Coaching is a conversation about development. A conversation where we want to explore what the coachee want's to achieve, what happens now for them, what options to change are open for them & what path out of those options they wish to pursue. After they've had a go at that we'll then reflect on it & how they make sense of the experience (through thoughts/feelings) & where that leads them to next. You can see that they are at the centre of it all. What they want, what they think are the options, what they want to try, how they feel about it, what they think about it, what their choice is & what happens for them as a result. They are responsible for it all, good or bad.
With instruction the instructor takes all the responsibility. What we are doing today is...., This is going wrong & it's because you do this. What you need to do is do this this.
When it comes to steering I advocate doing what gives you good results. With a variety of situations, for me they'll be a variety of what works best for me. What I aim to do is recognise the situation, the needs of the situation & the most beneficial method for me to get optimal performance in that situation & then implement. Post event reflect on & learn from it. What went well, what didn't, what do I think needs changing, what options for change are there & what I'm going to try next time (if need be). Nothing promotes a desire for change in people than experiencing difficulties or feeling restricted by your chosen method. Of course not experiencing any difficulties or feeling restricted by your method is far less likely to promote a desire for change.
Pull/push is one method, better in some circumstances than it is in others. It's one I'll use at times, but I'm not tied to it.
Thanks VH, very interesting input.
The future of Advanced Driving is that it will remain much the same, with petty arguements about BGOL, breaking speed limits etc. and a lack of engagement from the general public. There are too many vested business interests for it to change.
The future of GOOD driving has the heart of its problem in Instructor training and Learner driver training, in as much as that the profession does not teach the new instructor well, nor reward them financially for the responsibility they bear. Therefore the industry does not on the whole attract professionals, as anyone with any sense of self worth will not endure the stress for the low financial reward of taking home about £10 per hour after tax and expenses and will do something similar that has an hourly rate of more than double, namely mini-cabbing. That's not to say there aren't some instructors who are enthusiastic, but the only people making money are those who run the driving schools.
This means that Learner driver training is of a generally low standard and that is the standard that most people remain at. However, if everyone is of that low standard then people will look around and see that they are not any worse than anyone else. So there is nothing to aspire to.
The way to change this is to teach Learners in a way that bypasses Advanced Driving and teaches them to follow the Highway Code in an Expert manner. This does not mean it has to be done by coaching or client centred techniques which are current industry buzzwords.
Although the Code may not be perfect in terms of allowing an individual (read boy racer, Advanced Driver, Mum on school run) to make progress or to showcase their handling skills and may also result in tiny amounts of extra wear and tear that straight-lining a roundabout can save, it is not designed for this. It is designed to keep us all safe.
The Expert part would be to teach drivers not just to be safe but to enable others to FEEL safe 100% of the time. Something which Advanced, or Very Advanced Drivers don't always do.
Having been involved in driver training for over 25 years I have developed a method which combines Roadcraft and the DSA styles that can get a novice to a very high standard in a relatively short space of time. One of the features is that it enables people to learn judgement quickly through simple theoretical rules rather than months or years of experience. This is how I see the future and hopefully one day everyone will be taught like this or in a very similar way.
The future of GOOD driving has the heart of its problem in Instructor training and Learner driver training, in as much as that the profession does not teach the new instructor well, nor reward them financially for the responsibility they bear. Therefore the industry does not on the whole attract professionals, as anyone with any sense of self worth will not endure the stress for the low financial reward of taking home about £10 per hour after tax and expenses and will do something similar that has an hourly rate of more than double, namely mini-cabbing. That's not to say there aren't some instructors who are enthusiastic, but the only people making money are those who run the driving schools.
This means that Learner driver training is of a generally low standard and that is the standard that most people remain at. However, if everyone is of that low standard then people will look around and see that they are not any worse than anyone else. So there is nothing to aspire to.
The way to change this is to teach Learners in a way that bypasses Advanced Driving and teaches them to follow the Highway Code in an Expert manner. This does not mean it has to be done by coaching or client centred techniques which are current industry buzzwords.
Although the Code may not be perfect in terms of allowing an individual (read boy racer, Advanced Driver, Mum on school run) to make progress or to showcase their handling skills and may also result in tiny amounts of extra wear and tear that straight-lining a roundabout can save, it is not designed for this. It is designed to keep us all safe.
The Expert part would be to teach drivers not just to be safe but to enable others to FEEL safe 100% of the time. Something which Advanced, or Very Advanced Drivers don't always do.
Having been involved in driver training for over 25 years I have developed a method which combines Roadcraft and the DSA styles that can get a novice to a very high standard in a relatively short space of time. One of the features is that it enables people to learn judgement quickly through simple theoretical rules rather than months or years of experience. This is how I see the future and hopefully one day everyone will be taught like this or in a very similar way.
Martin A said:
Although the Code may not be perfect in terms of allowing an individual (read boy racer, Advanced Driver, Mum on school run) to make progress or to showcase their handling skills and may also result in tiny amounts of extra wear and tear that straight-lining a roundabout can save, it is not designed for this. It is designed to keep us all safe.
The Expert part would be to teach drivers not just to be safe but to enable others to FEEL safe 100% of the time. Something which Advanced, or Very Advanced Drivers don't always do.
Having been involved in driver training for over 25 years I have developed a method which combines Roadcraft and the DSA styles that can get a novice to a very high standard in a relatively short space of time. One of the features is that it enables people to learn judgement quickly through simple theoretical rules rather than months or years of experience. This is how I see the future and hopefully one day everyone will be taught like this or in a very similar way.
Thank you very much for your valued input Martin, some very good points, the driver training you have described sounds very good. Thanks and best wishes.The Expert part would be to teach drivers not just to be safe but to enable others to FEEL safe 100% of the time. Something which Advanced, or Very Advanced Drivers don't always do.
Having been involved in driver training for over 25 years I have developed a method which combines Roadcraft and the DSA styles that can get a novice to a very high standard in a relatively short space of time. One of the features is that it enables people to learn judgement quickly through simple theoretical rules rather than months or years of experience. This is how I see the future and hopefully one day everyone will be taught like this or in a very similar way.
Perhaps this thread should be called the 'Very Advanced Driving' thread in memory of old Tom, wonder what the A stood for? I thought it might be Admiral. Drivers such as myself, approaching 50, only have 10% of my 'to do' list finished, done some good stuff, music at quite high level, banger racing at 15, F1 Stocks at 18, mechanic since I stripped down my first mechanical toy at age 3 and was sent to bed xmas day, are still learning! An AD certificate is far from the be-all and end-all, there is still much to be thought out and discovered, especially these days as new ideas are very much coming through and being assimilated into the AD thinking of the future.
WE know what AD is, we have RoSPA gold and IAM first masters etc, or some do, I have none of these, my last test I was predicted a first on the pre test, the examiner had other ideas, although when I saw his reaction to the drive, I could see why, I didn't drive my best and was nervous, he had also invigilated an exam at my daughter's school the day before, my daughter had pink hair at the time and he was a class 1 police, he'd recognised the name, it's a rare one and said she was one of the better mannered of them etc, blah blah, anyway we've been through that and had time now to polish what we had. That's what this thread is about! Here we discuss our own beliefs, methods, techniques whatever we want to call them. There's no right or wrong in this, we are different, for example I'm very good at not breaking anything, years of driving customers cars with faults, prestige cars, imagine a Ferrari Dino with hardly any brakes, from Blackpool to Cheshire. Changing gear in a car with a broken clutch, rather than replace it roadside, yes my employers had brought a clutch kit and tools with them, trying to tow a trailer with a '73 wedge Mustang on it with a worn clutch pressure plate, dragging is a symptom of pressure plate wear, whereas slipping is friction plate wear, for anyone who doesn't know.
So 30 odd years on at 46 I'm not a beginner, I buy and sell cars and 4x4s and restore classic cars and landrovers, although I 'work' in the conservation industry, apart from collecting a few royalties from my work a few years ago that still keeps giving. I do advocate the old school 'system' IPSGA as it's now called, it has served me well, if I get drowsy on the 600 mile journey I regularly do at 50 in a landrover pulling a car trailer, I'll go into commentary and my drive sharpens, or so it seems, maybe it's psychological but I sharpen up...A high point has been getting a 1 for commentary from a class 1, I used no stock phrases whatsoever although he did write 'continuous commentary' on the test sheet, the swine! Glory days.
The future of Advanced Driving, well, a lot of people have been studying and practising this driving malarkey for some time. Little is written on the subject and a lot feel that some of the old methods used by the big clubs is in need of an update, although 'club' isn't the right word, these organisations IAM RoSPA and others are at the cutting edge of driver training, their belief is that further training can lead to improved safety on the roads and who but a fool, wouldn't want that? I am a supporter. I think we all agree that as long as what we do is always safe and we pose no risk to others on the road we are doing ok and our methods and systems are sound.
Tom Topper said 'Bow out through a hedge backwards rather than have a head on' he called it a 'point of honour' I think he was saying that if you're gonna lark about, make sure you're not where you're gonna hurt anyone else. Pretty good advise, I've always favoured an easy conscience.
In my own driving I leave a lot of drivers for dead, in a non turbo diesel landrover! Simply on account of my sign awareness. Bgol has it's place in drilling in to a driver the need to always be aware of what you're doing, it's always been the case that if you state in commentary that you are going to overlap it is fine and considered as good forward planning, it's about the forward planning phase, it's a bit like the trick question 'what was the last sign you saw?' What that trick can do for your sign awareness! Good stuff. And in the same way that we learn continuously throughout our career there is good stuff out there, and here is where it collects, a pool of knowledge which we can all dip into.
The system, steering, vehicle control, observation, hazard perception, cockpit/vehicle checks, mechanics and maintenance, the driver, benefits, downsides, pros, cons, driving LGVs, PSVs, Chauffeuring, minicabbing, licencing, laws, insurance, MOTs, everything driving related, it is all welcome here in this thread and nothing is OT.
So, the esteemed group that is the AD section of PH, if you're bored and there isn't any threads you feel like sticking your oar into, post something into this one, your knowledge, advise, experiences, ideas and theories are wanted and will be viewed with keen interest and greatly appreciated by myself and those lurkers who are reading up and perhaps considering entering the AD realm. I want this thread to encourage rather than discourage the interest of newcomers.
Best wishes all SM.
WE know what AD is, we have RoSPA gold and IAM first masters etc, or some do, I have none of these, my last test I was predicted a first on the pre test, the examiner had other ideas, although when I saw his reaction to the drive, I could see why, I didn't drive my best and was nervous, he had also invigilated an exam at my daughter's school the day before, my daughter had pink hair at the time and he was a class 1 police, he'd recognised the name, it's a rare one and said she was one of the better mannered of them etc, blah blah, anyway we've been through that and had time now to polish what we had. That's what this thread is about! Here we discuss our own beliefs, methods, techniques whatever we want to call them. There's no right or wrong in this, we are different, for example I'm very good at not breaking anything, years of driving customers cars with faults, prestige cars, imagine a Ferrari Dino with hardly any brakes, from Blackpool to Cheshire. Changing gear in a car with a broken clutch, rather than replace it roadside, yes my employers had brought a clutch kit and tools with them, trying to tow a trailer with a '73 wedge Mustang on it with a worn clutch pressure plate, dragging is a symptom of pressure plate wear, whereas slipping is friction plate wear, for anyone who doesn't know.
So 30 odd years on at 46 I'm not a beginner, I buy and sell cars and 4x4s and restore classic cars and landrovers, although I 'work' in the conservation industry, apart from collecting a few royalties from my work a few years ago that still keeps giving. I do advocate the old school 'system' IPSGA as it's now called, it has served me well, if I get drowsy on the 600 mile journey I regularly do at 50 in a landrover pulling a car trailer, I'll go into commentary and my drive sharpens, or so it seems, maybe it's psychological but I sharpen up...A high point has been getting a 1 for commentary from a class 1, I used no stock phrases whatsoever although he did write 'continuous commentary' on the test sheet, the swine! Glory days.
The future of Advanced Driving, well, a lot of people have been studying and practising this driving malarkey for some time. Little is written on the subject and a lot feel that some of the old methods used by the big clubs is in need of an update, although 'club' isn't the right word, these organisations IAM RoSPA and others are at the cutting edge of driver training, their belief is that further training can lead to improved safety on the roads and who but a fool, wouldn't want that? I am a supporter. I think we all agree that as long as what we do is always safe and we pose no risk to others on the road we are doing ok and our methods and systems are sound.
Tom Topper said 'Bow out through a hedge backwards rather than have a head on' he called it a 'point of honour' I think he was saying that if you're gonna lark about, make sure you're not where you're gonna hurt anyone else. Pretty good advise, I've always favoured an easy conscience.
In my own driving I leave a lot of drivers for dead, in a non turbo diesel landrover! Simply on account of my sign awareness. Bgol has it's place in drilling in to a driver the need to always be aware of what you're doing, it's always been the case that if you state in commentary that you are going to overlap it is fine and considered as good forward planning, it's about the forward planning phase, it's a bit like the trick question 'what was the last sign you saw?' What that trick can do for your sign awareness! Good stuff. And in the same way that we learn continuously throughout our career there is good stuff out there, and here is where it collects, a pool of knowledge which we can all dip into.
The system, steering, vehicle control, observation, hazard perception, cockpit/vehicle checks, mechanics and maintenance, the driver, benefits, downsides, pros, cons, driving LGVs, PSVs, Chauffeuring, minicabbing, licencing, laws, insurance, MOTs, everything driving related, it is all welcome here in this thread and nothing is OT.
So, the esteemed group that is the AD section of PH, if you're bored and there isn't any threads you feel like sticking your oar into, post something into this one, your knowledge, advise, experiences, ideas and theories are wanted and will be viewed with keen interest and greatly appreciated by myself and those lurkers who are reading up and perhaps considering entering the AD realm. I want this thread to encourage rather than discourage the interest of newcomers.
Best wishes all SM.
Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Saturday 18th January 21:18
MC Bodge said:
only 50?
Bodge, as in years, not mph!Actually I'm 46, I only said 'approaching 50'...
Anyway Bodge what are you saying buddy? You thought I was EVEN older than that?
Please leave something in here when you get a free moment, some input here from your good self will be greatly appreciated!.
Best wishes.
R0G said:
Cliftonite said:
Very high-minded of you, ROG, but I would prefer to keep my licence free of points and my cashflow devoid of fine payments.
Just me being sensible logical and realistic25NAD90TUL said:
If anything I would re-name it as 'Very Advanced Driving' as most contributors will have been through IAM and RoSPA training and have had time to develop their driving further...
As a driver with a willingness to improve, an admirable quality to have and an essential as far as going into the AD realm is concerned, have you considered IAM/RoSPA? For the price they are very good starting points, although we bicker endlessly about 'the system' and it's finer points, I think we would all agree that this is a good starting point in AD. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, it isn't, but it is a good thing to have in the fabric of your driving, I think very few will disagree on this point, some areas of the training may be a little fuddy-duddy and a little pedantic, but things like the forward obs side and the hazard perception side are well worth having down, some of the more seemingly pedantic areas, such as the dreaded bgol, are training tools to get the driver thinking about what they're doing at all times, and can be taken the wrong way, they are not a case of 'you must do this or that' merely a case of 'you must be thinking at all times' about what you are doing.
Don't let the bickering put you off, there are a great many areas on which we all completely agree, most contributors have 'the system' down well and are in a position to criticise and debate it's merits and failings, we all enjoy a good debate and I personally have seen excellent wisdom emerge from these discussions. I'd recommend doing it, as far as driver training goes they are very cheap, you get a certificate at the end and the option to join the organisation and to go further with things like observer training which is also very good. These are a good jumping off point, not the be all and end all, but a good thing to have. I think most would agree with this. The fact that you are even open to the fact that you could use some improvement makes you well better than average already imo, the common factor to all of our attitudes and methods is going to be that safety and responsibility will be at the very top of the list, the techniques used may vary, but that fact is never going to...
Thank you for your post. I may well do this. I went for a drive with a senior ex special branch guy in his 80s m535 and was very impressed with the smoothness of his driving - aside from the speed, his control of the car was incredible. This is what I lack. Would all advanced driving courses help with old, rwd cars? For example in the wet I take a very conservative approach in my e23 BMW, I would like to know how best to drive it safely (not to increase the speed, but to increase my comfort). As a driver with a willingness to improve, an admirable quality to have and an essential as far as going into the AD realm is concerned, have you considered IAM/RoSPA? For the price they are very good starting points, although we bicker endlessly about 'the system' and it's finer points, I think we would all agree that this is a good starting point in AD. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, it isn't, but it is a good thing to have in the fabric of your driving, I think very few will disagree on this point, some areas of the training may be a little fuddy-duddy and a little pedantic, but things like the forward obs side and the hazard perception side are well worth having down, some of the more seemingly pedantic areas, such as the dreaded bgol, are training tools to get the driver thinking about what they're doing at all times, and can be taken the wrong way, they are not a case of 'you must do this or that' merely a case of 'you must be thinking at all times' about what you are doing.
Don't let the bickering put you off, there are a great many areas on which we all completely agree, most contributors have 'the system' down well and are in a position to criticise and debate it's merits and failings, we all enjoy a good debate and I personally have seen excellent wisdom emerge from these discussions. I'd recommend doing it, as far as driver training goes they are very cheap, you get a certificate at the end and the option to join the organisation and to go further with things like observer training which is also very good. These are a good jumping off point, not the be all and end all, but a good thing to have. I think most would agree with this. The fact that you are even open to the fact that you could use some improvement makes you well better than average already imo, the common factor to all of our attitudes and methods is going to be that safety and responsibility will be at the very top of the list, the techniques used may vary, but that fact is never going to...
0a said:
Thank you for your post. I may well do this. I went for a drive with a senior ex special branch guy in his 80s m535 and was very impressed with the smoothness of his driving - aside from the speed, his control of the car was incredible. This is what I lack. Would all advanced driving courses help with old, rwd cars? For example in the wet I take a very conservative approach in my e23 BMW, I would like to know how best to drive it safely (not to increase the speed, but to increase my comfort).
You are very welcome, thank YOU for returning to the thread.I have been fortunate enough to have been on the receiving end of some very good quality driving too! I have to say that I find it beautiful. Smooth gearchanges, steering and a well balanced vehicle in the bends are some of the hallmarks of an AD.
I think you are being very sensible adopting a conservative approach to cornering in the wet with your rwd car. As I said before, from some of the things you say I think you are already in a good position and would do well on an AD course.
I would, in fact think that you may be able to get an observer that has a rwd vehicle, you could always enquire with your local group if there is anyone, I think some of the BM models are popular within AD circles. I myself love driving rwd (I often restore old American cars, I probably average one a year) and do like the extra fun that can be had with rwd, imo rwd requires considerably more skill than fwd. I'd have a look at AD training, whether rwd or not the observers usually have very good vehicle control and a lot of the training will see you in good stead with your own car, people sometimes assume that it's all about going slow, trust me it isn't! The progress rate of an IAM driver may be surprising! The increased confidence in your own ability will I'm sure be a boon. I would point out though that there will be little in terms of Limit-Handling etc, that is out of the IAM or RoSPA realm, but may be something to pursue at a later date, that sort of training will be very much more costly though, but may be something to follow on with, other people here know more about that sort of training than I though, and will surely pick up on this and may offer some advice at some point. Either way IAM/RoSPA will be a good starting point.
Also, and some of my pals won't believe what I'm about to say, there is a forum called ADUK, if you don't know of that it may be well worth a look, a lot of enthusiasts gather there and a lot of discussion on things like Limit-Handling and other sporty techniques are discussed there by some very talented drivers, a lot of whom are present in this thread, it might be well worth a look, they can tell you more about that kind of training than I.
http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum//index.php
Thanks again for your interest and please let me know what you decide. Have a look at ADUK and there will be links there to your local IAM or RoSPA RoADAR groups. Oh and if you join up there tell 'em Separation Master sent you! No I'm not on commission! btw it's free to join same as 'ere.
Best wishes and good to hear from you again, updates will be appreciated!
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