The future of Advanced Driving.

[0a]

25NAD90TUL said:

You are very welcome, thank YOU for returning to the thread.

I have been fortunate enough to have been on the receiving end of some very good quality driving too! I have to say that I find it beautiful. Smooth gearchanges, steering and a well balanced vehicle in the bends are some of the hallmarks of an AD.

I think you are being very sensible adopting a conservative approach to cornering in the wet with your rwd car. As I said before, from some of the things you say I think you are already in a good position and would do well on an AD course.

I would, in fact think that you may be able to get an observer that has a rwd vehicle, you could always enquire with your local group if there is anyone, I think some of the BM models are popular within AD circles. I myself love driving rwd (I often restore old American cars, I probably average one a year) and do like the extra fun that can be had with rwd, imo rwd requires considerably more skill than fwd. I'd have a look at AD training, whether rwd or not the observers usually have very good vehicle control and a lot of the training will see you in good stead with your own car, people sometimes assume that it's all about going slow, trust me it isn't! The progress rate of an IAM driver may be surprising! The increased confidence in your own ability will I'm sure be a boon. I would point out though that there will be little in terms of Limit-Handling etc, that is out of the IAM or RoSPA realm, but may be something to pursue at a later date, that sort of training will be very much more costly though, but may be something to follow on with, other people here know more about that sort of training than I though, and will surely pick up on this and may offer some advice at some point. Either way IAM/RoSPA will be a good starting point.

Also, and some of my pals won't believe what I'm about to say, there is a forum called ADUK, if you don't know of that it may be well worth a look, a lot of enthusiasts gather there and a lot of discussion on things like Limit-Handling and other sporty techniques are discussed there by some very talented drivers, a lot of whom are present in this thread, it might be well worth a look, they can tell you more about that kind of training than I.

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum//index.php

Thanks again for your interest and please let me know what you decide. Have a look at ADUK and there will be links there to your local IAM or RoSPA RoADAR groups. Oh and if you join up there tell 'em Separation Master sent you! No I'm not on commission! btw it's free to join same as 'ere.

Best wishes and good to hear from you again, updates will be appreciated!

I have a mandated holiday in March so I will take you up on this challenge.

I think I require help in two separate areas - general driving, and rwd driving. I do recognise that I am far from advanced in my general driving - but at least I am starting to identify where I do wrong which I would assume is the first place. As an example I got beeped several weeks back by a chap I had passed on the motorway when I pulled back into the lane to my left. He was in my blind spot (I had checked the mirrors) but had speeded up - my fault, I was too comfortable regarding "I passed him, I'm going faster" so I checked my mirrors and pulled in with little thought: clearly too little thought. What should I have done - not in this situation, but in a general way to avoid future conflict- after all anyone can speed up in a lane and end up in your blind spot.

The second area is safe, efficient rwd driving (with no driving aids) as above - I do like a rwd car, and find the rwd cars I drive quite logical but the road is no place to test theory.

Passengering with a good advanced driver made me realise that slick/quick also means safe when the skills are used in an appropriate way.

Edited by 0a on Saturday 18th January 23:11

[25NAD90TUL]

0a said:

I have a mandated holiday in March so I will take you up on this challenge.

Excellent stuff!

0a said:

As an example I got beeped several weeks back by a chap I had passed on the motorway when I pulled back into the lane to my left. He was in my blind spot (I had checked the mirrors) but had speeded up - my fault, I was too comfortable regarding "I passed him, I'm going faster" so I checked my mirrors and pulled in with little thought: clearly too little thought. What should I have done - not in this situation, but in a general way to avoid future conflict- after all anyone can speed up in a lane and end up in your blind spot.

A 'Left shoulder check' would have greatly assisted you there, often a left mirror check isn't enough, a left shoulder check will reveal what is lurking in your blindspot to the left, would have enabled you to asses the situation better, knowing his position you'd have then carried on a little further in lane before tucking in front of that car. Very useful at the approach to hazards on your left such as parked vehicles or a left turn for example too, helps just to make sure that a cyclist hasn't crept up alongside you into your blindspot on urban roads.

Hope that helps.

[0a]

25NAD90TUL said:

A 'Left shoulder check' would have greatly assisted you there, often a left mirror check isn't enough, a left shoulder check will reveal what is lurking in your blindspot to the left, would have enabled you to asses the situation better, knowing his position you'd have then carried on a little further in lane before tucking in front of that car. Very useful at the approach to hazards on your left such as parked vehicles or a left turn for example too, helps just to make sure that a cyclist hasn't crept up alongside you into your blindspot on urban roads.

Hope that helps.

I'd agree here, and I now do such a check, but it would be great to have a review covering other areas of my driving that I've got lazy with over the few hundred thousand miles I have driven (I'm sure I do lots of other "lazy" things). I use it as a clear example of poor driving on my part, and an example where changing my habits could make me safer - I hope recognition is the start of becoming a better driver!

I know everyone on PH would have done what I should have done- I didn't though...

Edited by 0a on Saturday 18th January 23:30

[25NAD90TUL]

0a said:

I'd agree here, and I now do such a check, but it would be great to have a review covering other areas of my driving that I've got lazy with over the few hundred thousand miles I have driven. I use it as a clear example of poor driving on my part, and an example where changing my habits could make me safer - I hope recognition is the start of becoming a better driver!

As stated earlier if you're recognising failings and correcting them and feeling you may have got a tad lazy, then you are well better than average as a great many drivers just laugh at mistakes, don't correct them or pay any heed to them and just carry on driving on auto pilot.

I reckon AD training is going to be right up your street. While in some threads I may be critical about certain things, I will always recommend first stage AD training ie: IAM/RoSPA. And I'm not a member currently or on commission (I wish I was) but I am a driver who can see the benefits right across the board. Go for it my good friend!

As an aside to that, there may be a downside as I have discovered...Your mates and your wife, once you've passed your AD test, may insist that you ALWAYS do the driving! (Even though if you're like me you NEVER criticise or offer any comment) Only downside I've seen!

[Toltec]

25NAD90TUL said:

Actually I'm 46, I only said 'approaching 50'...

A while to go yet then lad, I've only got as many months left as you have years!

[25NAD90TUL]

Toltec said:

A while to go yet then lad, I've only got as many months left as you have years!

Hiya Dad!

That IS good news for me, I feel youthful now in comparison.

I'm still a pup!

Hey Toltec, I blinked at 21 and when I opened my eyes, I was 40...is this normal? I still feel 21, apart from when I wake up.

On a slightly more depressing note I still have loads of stuff I want to do, and so little time in which to do it!

Best wishes bud!

[stevesingo]

0a said:

25NAD90TUL said:

A 'Left shoulder check' would have greatly assisted you there, often a left mirror check isn't enough, a left shoulder check will reveal what is lurking in your blindspot to the left, would have enabled you to asses the situation better, knowing his position you'd have then carried on a little further in lane before tucking in front of that car. Very useful at the approach to hazards on your left such as parked vehicles or a left turn for example too, helps just to make sure that a cyclist hasn't crept up alongside you into your blindspot on urban roads.

Hope that helps.

I'd agree here, and I now do such a check, but it would be great to have a review covering other areas of my driving that I've got lazy with over the few hundred thousand miles I have driven (I'm sure I do lots of other "lazy" things). I use it as a clear example of poor driving on my part, and an example where changing my habits could make me safer - I hope recognition is the start of becoming a better driver!

I know everyone on PH would have done what I should have done- I didn't though...

Edited by 0a on Saturday 18th January 23:30

When passing on a multi-lane carriageway at motorway speeds, I will wait for the vehicle being passes to appear in my rear view mirror before attempting to re-enter the nearside lane. Only when I see then in the rear view mirror will I check the nearside mirror/look over shoulder, before indicating and returning to the nearside. If this nearside mirror/over shoulder check is not done, it is possible for the space you want to be in to become occupied, not by the vehicle you have just passes, as you can see them in your rear view, but by another unseen vehicle perhaps moving to the mid lane from the inside, whilst you are trying to move to the mid lane form the outside.

This ensures you have given some braking distance to the vehicle being overtaken.

[25NAD90TUL]

stevesingo said:

When passing on a multi-lane carriageway at motorway speeds, I will wait for the vehicle being passes to appear in my rear view mirror before attempting to re-enter the nearside lane. Only when I see then in the rear view mirror will I check the nearside mirror/look over shoulder, before indicating and returning to the nearside. If this nearside mirror/over shoulder check is not done, it is possible for the space you want to be in to become occupied, not by the vehicle you have just passes, as you can see them in your rear view, but by another unseen vehicle perhaps moving to the mid lane from the inside, whilst you are trying to move to the mid lane form the outside.

This ensures you have given some braking distance to the vehicle being overtaken.

Thanks for adding this. Nicely put.

I like the part about giving some braking distance to the other vehicle very much.

Best wishes.

[25NAD90TUL]

Reading around on PH a little I notice a little bit of confusion over motorway on-slips. I'm a bit confused, myself. Some have the view that a slip has to be treated as a give way, the HC does say that traffic on motorway has priority over traffic on the slip. I haven't particularly had any trouble merging myself, but admit that this was always going to be my planned approach should I ever have experienced any difficulty in very heavy conditions, being very mindful of any following vehicles of course. Others have the view that it is acceptable to drive along the hard-shoulder in order to attempt to merge a little further on. The people with the latter view, when questioned on the legality of this did state that they were given this advice by a traffic bobby. I always thought that to drive on the HS was illegal other than in an emergency or if told to by a bobby. It just illustrates the point that I don't know it all and am uncertain on things sometimes, for example, if a bobby told them to merge via the HS in the pub or at a driving class, then does that qualify for the exception to the rule, and make it legal? Or does a bobby have to be there in person, at the time of driving as it were, say at the scene of an accident or similar, for the rule to apply?

Does that make sense? Hope so...

Sometimes the HC can be ambiguous. On the one hand it says you should not get closer to the vehicle ahead than the stopping distance for the speed you are going, which at 70 is roughly a soccer pitch length or an approximately 4 second gap if you use the countdown marker method to gauge it, on the following page it says that on fast roads you should use the 2 second rule, although it does state that as a minimum it is substantially less in terms of distance than the stopping distance it recommended. I do try to add a little into my gap depending on the vehicle I'm driving and prefer the idea of 4 seconds or more to 2 at 70. At the end of the day though I have the choice to drive in lane 1 if there may be a danger of inconveniencing anyone else by making a larger gap.

Some people consider it good manners and responsible driving to move from lane 1 to lane 2 on the approach to an on-slip if conditions allow, in order to make life easier for drivers merging into lane 1. Again this has been my approach. I have heard it said that to do so encourages the mistaken belief, in adjoining drivers, that it is obligatory to move over for them, which it isn't, and to encourage that belief may be dangerous.

I'm not taking issue with any of these points. I can't say categorically on any of them, I can only say what I have thought up to now, which is only really my interpretation. I think driving literature can be ambiguous at times, and may be open to interpretation. All well and good as long as it's legal, I wouldn't commit to anything I was unsure of in terms of safety and legality though. But again could be my interpretation of illegal or not. A lot of what I read here makes me think is the only thing I can say with any certainty.

Best wishes all.

[stevesingo]

25NAD90TUL said:

Thanks for adding this. Nicely put.

I like the part about giving some braking distance to the other vehicle very much.

Best wishes.

If space is tight, I prefer to have a smaller gap to the car in front, than to the car behind, relying on my observation ahead of the car in front, rather than relying on the observation of someone behind me. If the following car insists on remaining to close then either back off, inviting them to pass, or if the outside lane is clear, use it (and acceleration) to create some space for my self, which is important to me.

[johnao]

25NAD90TUL said:

Reading around on PH a little I notice a little bit of confusion over motorway on-slips. I'm a bit confused, myself. Some have the view that a slip has to be treated as a give way, the HC does say that traffic on motorway has priority over traffic on the slip. I haven't particularly had any trouble merging myself, but admit that this was always going to be my planned approach should I ever have experienced any difficulty in very heavy conditions, being very mindful of any following vehicles of course. Others have the view that it is acceptable to drive along the hard-shoulder in order to attempt to merge a little further on. The people with the latter view, when questioned on the legality of this did state that they were given this advice by a traffic bobby. I always thought that to drive on the HS was illegal other than in an emergency or if told to by a bobby. It just illustrates the point that I don't know it all and am uncertain on things sometimes, for example, if a bobby told them to merge via the HS in the pub or at a driving class, then does that qualify for the exception to the rule, and make it legal? Or does a bobby have to be there in person, at the time of driving as it were, say at the scene of an accident or similar, for the rule to apply?

Does that make sense? Hope so...

Sometimes the HC can be ambiguous. On the one hand it says you should not get closer to the vehicle ahead than the stopping distance for the speed you are going, which at 70 is roughly a soccer pitch length or an approximately 4 second gap if you use the countdown marker method to gauge it, on the following page it says that on fast roads you should use the 2 second rule, although it does state that as a minimum it is substantially less in terms of distance than the stopping distance it recommended. I do try to add a little into my gap depending on the vehicle I'm driving and prefer the idea of 4 seconds or more to 2 at 70. At the end of the day though I have the choice to drive in lane 1 if there may be a danger of inconveniencing anyone else by making a larger gap.

Some people consider it good manners and responsible driving to move from lane 1 to lane 2 on the approach to an on-slip if conditions allow, in order to make life easier for drivers merging into lane 1. Again this has been my approach. I have heard it said that to do so encourages the mistaken belief, in adjoining drivers, that it is obligatory to move over for them, which it isn't, and to encourage that belief may be dangerous.

I'm not taking issue with any of these points. I can't say categorically on any of them, I can only say what I have thought up to now, which is only really my interpretation. I think driving literature can be ambiguous at times, and may be open to interpretation. All well and good as long as it's legal, I wouldn't commit to anything I was unsure of in terms of safety and legality though. But again could be my interpretation of illegal or not. A lot of what I read here makes me think is the only thing I can say with any certainty.

Best wishes all.

My advice is... read everything there is to read... listen to everyone who has an opinion on the subject... then, use common sense and make up your own mind.

Edited by johnao on Thursday 23 January 16:07

[SK425]

25NAD90TUL said:

Others have the view that it is acceptable to drive along the hard-shoulder in order to attempt to merge a little further on. The people with the latter view, when questioned on the legality of this did state that they were given this advice by a traffic bobby.

If you're talking about the Short Slip Roads thread I was one of the posters who mentioned the option of continuing onto the hard shoulder and I didn't get that advice from a traffic bobby (although I've no reason to doubt the poster who said they did). No need to wrestle with dilemmas about receiving advice from the police in the pub - of course that's not going to make the illegal legal! The point being made was simply that, illegal though it is, exceptionally it could be the best option.

And what johnao said.

[Toltec]

25NAD90TUL said:

Thanks for adding this. Nicely put.

I like the part about giving some braking distance to the other vehicle very much.

Best wishes.

Yes, bonnet-gaiters are a pet hate of mine.

[waremark]

SK425 said:

25NAD90TUL said:

Others have the view that it is acceptable to drive along the hard-shoulder in order to attempt to merge a little further on. The people with the latter view, when questioned on the legality of this did state that they were given this advice by a traffic bobby.

If you're talking about the Short Slip Roads thread I was one of the posters who mentioned the option of continuing onto the hard shoulder and I didn't get that advice from a traffic bobby (although I've no reason to doubt the poster who said they did). No need to wrestle with dilemmas about receiving advice from the police in the pub - of course that's not going to make the illegal legal! The point being made was simply that, illegal though it is, exceptionally it could be the best option.

And what johnao said.

When you have been on the hard shoulder for a legitimate reason, and are ready to leave, the advice in the HWC is to build up speed on the hard shoulder before rejoining the main carriageway. Surely therefore if you did have to come to a halt at the end of the slip this same advice should apply - and maybe you could consider it to be an emergency! Personally, I don't think this has ever happened to me - I have had much more difficulty joining dual carriageways where long slips are not always provided.

[25NAD90TUL]

SK425 said:

If you're talking about the Short Slip Roads thread I was one of the posters who mentioned the option of continuing onto the hard shoulder and I didn't get that advice from a traffic bobby (although I've no reason to doubt the poster who said they did). No need to wrestle with dilemmas about receiving advice from the police in the pub - of course that's not going to make the illegal legal! The point being made was simply that, illegal though it is, exceptionally it could be the best option.

And what johnao said.

Nicely put SK, yes put that like makes perfect sense. I'm not taking issue with it, just wanted to prompt some discussion on it.

Thank you SK for this input!
Best wishes.

[25NAD90TUL]

johnao said:

My advice is... read everything there is to read... listen to everyone who has an opinion on the subject... then, use common sense and make up your own mind.

Edited by johnao on Thursday 23 January 16:07

Good advice johnao, I do read a lot of threads and get a lot out of it.

Best wishes johnao.

[25NAD90TUL]

waremark said:

When you have been on the hard shoulder for a legitimate reason, and are ready to leave, the advice in the HWC is to build up speed on the hard shoulder before rejoining the main carriageway. Surely therefore if you did have to come to a halt at the end of the slip this same advice should apply - and maybe you could consider it to be an emergency! Personally, I don't think this has ever happened to me - I have had much more difficulty joining dual carriageways where long slips are not always provided.

Another good point well made. Needs must and that kind of thing. It is something I would now consider if I got in any difficulty. I haven't experienced difficulty with this as yet which is why I hadn't given it much thought or come to a decision on it. Short slips, yes, especially those uphill slips with little view to the right until you're very close to the carriageway, I can think of a couple locally like that. This is now something I'd consider for sure, I'd have never hesitated if I was about to get rear-ended.

Pulling out of a layby onto a busy dual carriageway can be a dodgy situation also.

All the points illustrated on this subject have made good sense.

Thanks for this input. Best wishes waremark.

[7mike]

Quite a few posts over the years have discussed the comparative merits of vehicle control skills (limit handling/skid control etc.) in advanced training, with one or two here quite vociferous in that it should be included. This thread seems as good as any to post this link & I'd be interested in the views of any who can find the time to have a read through.

http://www.irfnews.org/wp-content/uploads/IRF-DBET...

It is American so don't complain when you see they've spelt LICENCE wrong

[vonhosen]

7mike said:

Quite a few posts over the years have discussed the comparative merits of vehicle control skills (limit handling/skid control etc.) in advanced training, with one or two here quite vociferous in that it should be included. This thread seems as good as any to post this link & I'd be interested in the views of any who can find the time to have a read through.

http://www.irfnews.org/wp-content/uploads/IRF-DBET...

It is American so don't complain when you see they've spelt LICENCE wrong

We've covered this ground many times both here & ADUK.

[7mike]

vonhosen said:

We've covered this ground many times both here & ADUK.

Which is why I thought this report may have been of interest to some.