The future of Advanced Driving.

[Tartan Pixie]

Good thread Especially enjoyed the stuff about steering as I was never entirely comfortable with the snuffling thing, especially once speeds get up a bit.

With regards to the future of AD I think vonhosen hit the nail on the head by saying:

vonhosen said:

What is common amongst all groups is the need to deal with the psychology behind driving behaviour as part of the learning process.

Psychology has long sat in an odd place between science and art, after all you can't measure awareness in Lb/Ft or define confidence in centimetres, well, not unless you're measuring confidence by the distance between you and some tree shaped impending doom on the outside of a bend, which is hardly scientific.

This is all starting to change. The US and EU are currently locked in a battle to be first in mapping the brain and the spending runs to billions on both sides however, as is often the case, the resultant technology will be tested on a willing mass market of guinea pigs known as computer gamers before it ever gets near a car. This is important because if we want to know the future of AD then we must know the future of the car and that future is already available on ebay courtesy of companies like emotiv, namely mind controlled electronics.

There is a much espoused view on PH that mechanical cars are fun to control because it takes skill while electronics are nannying and get in the way of enjoyment, however this assumes that our interface with electronics will remain as clunky touch screens or flashing yellow lights on the dash while the electronics do stuff with torque vectoring that the driver doesn't really understand. That's about to change.

In the here and now today Matell, the folk who brought us Hot Wheels and Barbie dolls, are selling mind control products to the kids who will be the drivers of tomorrow so if IAM and ROSPA want to remain relevant they need to understand how the steering feel of today is going to be the haptic feedback of tomorrow - IE the status of each wheel fed to you through vibrations while you respond by thinking what you want to do with each wheel and the car follows the response response through your EEG headset.

I'm sorry if this all sounds a bit sci-fi but the reality is that games companies are already trying to work this tech in to the upcoming versions of driving games and for the last couple of decades computer games have consistently defined the interfaces we use in daily life.

So, while vonhosen may have made the most prescient comment on the thread by talking about psychology I don't think many people have grasped how psychology is currently colliding with the worlds of neuroscience and engineering. A few million people repeatedly binning their cars off the the tracks of forza and gran turismo will give us plenty of data to measure confidence by reading the tiny voltages of people's brainwaves, or track how someone's belief in their skills relates to their actual driving ability and give us this understanding as a scientifically verifiable measurement.

Personally I can't wait for the the first EEG controlled electric car, it'll be proper smiles per miles and arguments over BGOL will be as relevant as horse riders arguing over the difference between having a snaffle or pellum bit on their bridle.

[25NAD90TUL]

7mike said:

Quite a few posts over the years have discussed the comparative merits of vehicle control skills (limit handling/skid control etc.) in advanced training, with one or two here quite vociferous in that it should be included. This thread seems as good as any to post this link & I'd be interested in the views of any who can find the time to have a read through.

http://www.irfnews.org/wp-content/uploads/IRF-DBET...

It is American so don't complain when you see they've spelt LICENCE wrong

Thanks very much for this link 7Mike, I for one hadn't seen it and appreciate you putting it in the thread. I will have to read it through a couple of times for it all to sink in.
Best wishes.

[25NAD90TUL]

vonhosen said:

We've covered this ground many times both here & ADUK.

Hi Von, I appreciated it even if it was, for some, repetition. My not being a current ADUK member I hadn't seen it previously. Also when discussing these topics there is bound to be some repetition, which imo mightn't be a bad thing.
Best wishes Von.

[25NAD90TUL]

Tartan Pixie said:

<Psychology>

Many thanks for this very interesting input!
Best wishes.

[alexisn]

Have to say that I have always considered the IAM badge pretentious nonsense. If the driving test is basic the presumably anyone with a years experience is relatively advanced. Surely you don't still shuffle the wheel? The most important thing is the accrual of experience that principally is why accidents mostly involve younger drivers. The driving test is a joke, driver training should involve a few hours of simulator training where the trainee can be exposed to more than a three point turn and a bit of reversing. Bad weather, night driving, country lanes with tractors, children running out, slippery conditions etc, etc can all be demonstrated / experienced. Easily done in this day of simulators.

[Cliftonite]

alexisn said:

Have to say that I have always considered the IAM badge pretentious nonsense. If the driving test is basic the presumably anyone with a years experience is relatively advanced. Surely you don't still shuffle the wheel? The most important thing is the accrual of experience that principally is why accidents mostly involve younger drivers. The driving test is a joke, driver training should involve a few hours of simulator training where the trainee can be exposed to more than a three point turn and a bit of reversing. Bad weather, night driving, country lanes with tractors, children running out, slippery conditions etc, etc can all be demonstrated / experienced. Easily done in this day of simulators.

On what evidence do you base your verdict of the IAM? Have you actually experienced any IAM / RoSPA etc training?

I have found the whole IAM experience enjoyable, helpful and extremely rewarding. The skills gained / enhanced through this training could well have even saved my life as I have managed to avoid several incidents (using observation and forward planning) that may have caused me to come a cropper otherwise.

[mph1977]

Cliftonite said:

On what evidence do you base your verdict of the IAM? Have you actually experienced any IAM / RoSPA etc training?

I have found the whole IAM experience enjoyable, helpful and extremely rewarding. The skills gained / enhanced through this training could well have even saved my life as I have managed to avoid several incidents (using observation and forward planning) that may have caused me to come a cropper otherwise.

these are valid points and i would be interested to know if alex has actually done any advanced training ...

there is a valid criticism that the IAM is a badge for life vs the revalidation required by RoSPA and other AD organisatios and various revlaidation / check drive arrangements in Emergency services / military settings.

[25NAD90TUL]

alexisn said:

Have to say that I have always considered the IAM badge pretentious nonsense. If the driving test is basic the presumably anyone with a years experience is relatively advanced. Surely you don't still shuffle the wheel? The most important thing is the accrual of experience that principally is why accidents mostly involve younger drivers. The driving test is a joke, driver training should involve a few hours of simulator training where the trainee can be exposed to more than a three point turn and a bit of reversing. Bad weather, night driving, country lanes with tractors, children running out, slippery conditions etc, etc can all be demonstrated / experienced. Easily done in this day of simulators.

Strongly disagree with this viewpoint. The IAM is certainly not a joke, the training is pretty demanding imo and takes driving to a much higher level than just having a years post DSA test trial and error learning with zero structure. It's a well known fact that most drivers develop bad-habits and poor road-manners etc post DSA and slip into using methods that are unsound and in many cases dangerous.

When you refer to 'shuffling' are you talking about pull-push steering? If so then done properly what is known as 'big-bite pull-push' is very different from shuffling the wheel with small inputs shuffling around the ten-two position. Proper pull-push imo means large inputs between the twelve and six positions. I understand that in the states they call this shuffle steering, but the general definition of shuffling here will be normal pull-push or 'feeding the wheel' which imo is greatly preferable to the one hand on the top of the wheel while the other hand nurses the gear-lever even when not intending a gear change, which I believe is the method most often used by drivers once they have passed the DSA. Whatever steering method is advocated, and it is becoming more acceptable to use alternatives to pull-push within AD, it is always going to be a two handed method that is considered preferable.

Whilst I greatly appreciate any input into this thread I started, I do wonder if yours is a serious post or one meant to be controversial just to wind people here up.

Regarding your 'year of driving' post DSA test, I'm fine with that if it means driving to DSA test standard at all times, but tbh how many people do that?

To me it is the discipline instilled into the individuals' drive that AD training brings that is very worthwhile. The badge itself is a subtle reminder to the driver that these standards of safety and responsibility must be adhered to at all times.

Best wishes.

Also imo using driving simulators is a poor alternative to actual on-road in-vehicle training, especially when it comes to thinks like bad conditions and slippery surfaces as you describe.

[25NAD90TUL]

mph1977 said:

these are valid points and i would be interested to know if alex has actually done any advanced training ...

there is a valid criticism that the IAM is a badge for life vs the revalidation required by RoSPA and other AD organisatios and various revlaidation / check drive arrangements in Emergency services / military settings.

I know what you mean with this, but surely once a person has done IAM they are going to use the techniques taught in their driving from that point onward. That is what I have always done, I'm a lapsed RoSPA member myself and went to IAM years later to just check my validity and am pleased to say that my drive was up to IAM standard on the first observed run. I understand that some may go back to bad habits after a while but then they are not driving to advanced standard any longer. Not only that but an IAM member can book a re-test at any time if they feel they need it, I can accept though that some may not do this.

Best wishes.

[25NAD90TUL]

Cliftonite said:

I have found the whole IAM experience enjoyable, helpful and extremely rewarding. The skills gained / enhanced through this training could well have even saved my life as I have managed to avoid several incidents (using observation and forward planning) that may have caused me to come a cropper otherwise.

Very much agree Cliftonite, I think a lot of us could say that same thing if we're honest.
Best wishes.

[vonhosen]

25NAD90TUL said:

mph1977 said:

these are valid points and i would be interested to know if alex has actually done any advanced training ...

there is a valid criticism that the IAM is a badge for life vs the revalidation required by RoSPA and other AD organisatios and various revlaidation / check drive arrangements in Emergency services / military settings.

I know what you mean with this, but surely once a person has done IAM they are going to use the techniques taught in their driving from that point onward. That is what I have always done, I'm a lapsed RoSPA member myself and went to IAM years later to just check my validity and am pleased to say that my drive was up to IAM standard on the first observed run. I understand that some may go back to bad habits after a while but then they are not driving to advanced standard any longer. Not only that but an IAM member can book a re-test at any time if they feel they need it, I can accept though that some may not do this.

Best wishes.

Or alternatively people could do what the IAM want to see for the test & then go back to an alternative they prefer (that they don't consider to be a bad habit in any way shape or form).

[waremark]

vonhosen said:

Or alternatively people could do what the IAM want to see for the test & then go back to an alternative they prefer (that they don't consider to be a bad habit in any way shape or form).

But hopefully retaining a higher level of Observation Anticipation and Planning, a good attitude to safety and good judgment of what is safe.

[SK425]

25NAD90TUL said:

I know what you mean with this, but surely once a person has done IAM they are going to use the techniques taught in their driving from that point onward.

Why do you say that? I would expect them to continue to use the techniques they perceive to be of value. I don't think it's necessarily the case that an IAM test pass is evidence that that driver perceives value in every aspect of the IAM's driving style. In fact, I'm certain that isn't always the case.

[mph1977]

SK425 said:

25NAD90TUL said:

I know what you mean with this, but surely once a person has done IAM they are going to use the techniques taught in their driving from that point onward.

Why do you say that? I would expect them to continue to use the techniques they perceive to be of value. I don't think it's necessarily the case that an IAM test pass is evidence that that driver perceives value in every aspect of the IAM's driving style. In fact, I'm certain that isn't always the case.

Odd isn't it that many organisations and regulatory bodies insist on periodic revalidation / recertification for people to be able to retain a qualification / membership of an organisation / licence to practice ... we've even now reached the point with driver CPC where it's come to the government driving licence ( regardless of how potentially ineffective Driver CPC is and how ineffective previous medical requirements to renew licence at 45 and subsequently)

Edited by mph1977 on Sunday 2nd February 21:06

[25NAD90TUL]

vonhosen said:

Or alternatively people could do what the IAM want to see for the test & then go back to an alternative they prefer (that they don't consider to be a bad habit in any way shape or form).

Had to laugh VH, I could have predicted this response from you more or less word for word!

However, yes I accept there is truth in your comment! Take out and use the bits you feel are of value and those areas that are of little value, bin. Yep makes sense and no argument from me.

Best wishes Von!

ETA: Actually Von, apart from the obvious (PP, separation) what, if any, of the other parts of the training would you abandon? Purely out of curiosity. Are there any other areas you consider unnecessary to continue using post-test?

Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Sunday 2nd February 20:32

[25NAD90TUL]

waremark said:

But hopefully retaining a higher level of Observation Anticipation and Planning, a good attitude to safety and good judgment of what is safe.

Agreed. Actually WM, apart from the obvious (PP, separation) what, if any, of the other parts of the training would you abandon? Purely out of curiosity. Are there any other areas you consider unnecessary to continue using post-test?
Best wishes.

[25NAD90TUL]

SK425 said:

Why do you say that? I would expect them to continue to use the techniques they perceive to be of value. I don't think it's necessarily the case that an IAM test pass is evidence that that driver perceives value in every aspect of the IAM's driving style. In fact, I'm certain that isn't always the case.

Absolutely. It's very clear that this is certainly the case with a great many. Not criticising this attitude, people use the parts they feel are useful and bin the parts they don't consider useful, the obvious ones being PP and separation. Just out of curiosity are there any other bits you personally would leave out or consider unnecessary, or just those two aspects?

I personally drive as if every journey was an AD test, boring I know, perhaps I feel as though I'm not expert enough to add my own ideas, I'm not sure that my ideas would be any improvement, I'm completely honest about this so don't slate me to death!
Best wishes SK.

[25NAD90TUL]

mph1977 said:

odd isn't it that many organisations and regulatory bodies insist on periodic revlaidation / rec ertification for people tobe able to retain a qualification / membership of an organisation / licence to practice ... we've even now reached the point with driver CPC where it's come to the government driving licence ( regardless of ho potentially ineffective Driver CPC is and how ineffective previous medical requirements to renew licence at 45 and subsequently)

Sorry mph, I'm a bit lost with this one.
Best wishes.

[25NAD90TUL]

So the thread has finally reached the point where I want to be at.

I said I wouldn't be arguing and being pedantic about the system and bgol and stuff, I meant it.

So I understand that two areas of the system in particular are considered pretty useless once the test is passed, these being bgol avoidance and pull-push steering.

Driving is very much a personal thing and the techniques used vary considerably, in the past I may have come across as thinking that anything but a perfect display of PP and full separation was un-advanced, this is not the case, some of the best drives I've ever been a passenger in have been anything but to IAM/RoSPA standard but have still been, to me, very advanced, natural talent does exist in driving, it isn't limited to 'AD people', many of whom I've seen have had little in the way of natural talent.

So the question is, and has now been asked: What areas aside from PP and separation are considered to be less than necessary in your drives as individuals?

Many thanks to all contributors to this thread, best wishes all! SM.

[25NAD90TUL]

Tartan Pixie said:

Personally I can't wait for the the first EEG controlled electric car, it'll be proper smiles per miles and arguments over BGOL will be as relevant as horse riders arguing over the difference between having a snaffle or pellum bit on their bridle.

The military already have un-manned ATVs...

I personally prefer the Egbert snaffle...

Good post that was, I read it again and it was good, personally I'd rather stay with 1950s technology, I feel as though the latest driver aids are a 'dumbing down' move, parking sensors/ABS/airbags etc I believe are no substitute for driver skill.

'Tomorrows world' in the 70s predicted we would be travelling by stepping on to conveyor belts by the year 2000, it hasn't happened but the driverless car, or perhaps it will be an Omnibus or Tram type thing is just around the corner imo, wonder what the government will do for money then? No car tax, no speeding fines etc, they'll have to think of other stealth taxes then eh?

Mind you, currently they spend some of all those billions gained from Road tax, not on road maintenance and stuff, it's all spent on cameras to nick you and speed bumps to slow you down/wreck your car, the rest of it god knows what they spend it on. Where I live you can't drive 50 yards without a speed bump, one in particular is like driving up a curb, even in a 4x4 it seems very excessive and it's only 10 yards from a t-junction, surely a Stop sign would have been money better spent. The mind boggles, mind you it's a well known fact that our roads department is staffed by non-drivers, not a joke that is a fact!

Best wishes. Thanks for your input.