Advanced driving - good driving or mr loop hole?

[Jon1967x]

Quite a few threads on here seem to be more concerned with how to get one up on other motorists and less about good safe, sensible road craft. So what is "Advanced driving"?

Is it "Advanced" to loop round a roundabout to jump ahead of traffic or to use a filter lane and do a U turn? I'm not looking to preach on etiquette etc, its a genuine question on what this part of PH is for.

I imagined "Advanced" was to make safe and sensible progress, understand situations better and be safe. I'm no angel, I have been known to drive above the speed limit for instance, and I was expecting to see more about views on difficult junctions, debates on road position etc in the off chance I learn something. A healthy debate about when to filter in when there is a lane closure would be constructive (I believe if we all filtered at the point of closure when queueing it would avoid all the bumper to bumper blocking etc, but as most people don't do that it's a dilemma whether to drive past everyone and just expect to be let in.)

So my question - is "Advanced driving" about getting from A-B as quickly as possible by being smarter than others by using every trick at your disposal or is it about driving respectfully and considerately, road aware and sympathetic and being safer (which can still be quick where conditions allow)?

[trashbat]

Jon1967x said:

getting from A-B as quickly as possible by being smarter than others

Jon1967x said:

driving respectfully and considerately, road aware and sympathetic and being safer

Both!

Weaving through traffic and cutting people up on a motorway would be employing a trick, would make progress but wouldn't be very sympathetic or safe.

Going a hotly disputed number of degrees around a roundabout might make better progress without really upsetting anyone.

Legal, safe overtaking is a trick that makes progress and everyone would regard it as completely legitimate.

There's a line somewhere but you should be skilled enough to have a good idea where it lies.

[StressedDave]

It was once said that a good advanced driver could drive a (depending on version) pink/tiger striped Lamborghini from Lands End to John o'Groats without being noticed. I think that still applies - I look upon it as fitting in with the rest of the road users while making progress from A to B. It isn't about being the quickest A to B.

[Jon1967x]

trashbat said:

Going a hotly disputed number of degrees around a roundabout might make better progress without really upsetting anyone.

I beg to differ - I think it would annoy most of the people who have queued in the left lane

I agree there's a line, its just that the tone of some posts seems to be that being discourteous to other drivers is ok if "technically" its ok, and that its actually a badge of honour to find a way to manipulate a situation even if that causes frustration amongst other road users.

I thought "advanced driving" was controlling your environment, and making another driver see red is not doing that. Being "right" doesn't make you "safe".

[StressedDave]

Jon1967x said:

I beg to differ - I think it would annoy most of the people who have queued in the left lane

Only if they notice... and therein lies the crux of the matter.

[trashbat]

StressedDave said:

Jon1967x said:

I beg to differ - I think it would annoy most of the people who have queued in the left lane

Only if they notice... and therein lies the crux of the matter.

Quite.

Add to this that safe and legal overtaking will greatly annoy a minority of people, but those people are idiots and deserve to be left behind.

[stevesingo]

Driving is all about decision making. For each situation the immediate effects and the 2nd order effects of the options available to the driver must be considered and a decision made as to which option would be appropriate.

Example...

In an instance where a slower vehicle in encountered, perhaps driven by an individual who is not displaying confidence/competance, do you...

A, go for the overtake on a short straight between two bends or...

B, wait for a dual carraigway?

The immediate effect is that you continue to make progress.

The 2nd order effects of A may include the startling of the driver in front leading to over reaction, and the distress caused.

The 2nd order effects of option B may include a driver behind you trying to jump two cars, leading to the above, or a small delay in your journey.

What ever option you choose will depend on how much you prioritise progress over safety and consideration to other road users. It would be quite easy to take option A and then smugly say, "that iddiot shoyuld not be on the road 'cause I'm better than him/her". They may not be as competant as we would like but the fact is they are there so deal with it.

The Police class 1 who I had the pleasure of driving with for a week stated that we should make safe progress without coming in to conflict with other road users. The amount of progress we can make, without conflict, would be an indicator of how well we are doing it.

[R0G]

Its all the OP described

I follow these 3 in this order
SAFE
LEGAL
CONVENIENT(as poss)

then I make progress by thinking my way which means observing and reasoning all the possibilities

[Jon1967x]

I think the last 2 posts are much more in line with my thoughts than the other responses.

I wasn't only referring to a safe over take. Some of the other threads by virtue of being on the Advance driving subsection are implying (or asking) that to pass a load of cars and double back, go round a roundabout to jump a queue, go the wrong way and do a U-turn etc are all good examples of driving. Those questions may be better answered under the law section on whether legal.

[p1esk]

Jon1967x said:

Quite a few threads on here seem to be more concerned with how to get one up on other motorists and less about good safe, sensible road craft. So what is "Advanced driving"?

Is it "Advanced" to loop round a roundabout to jump ahead of traffic or to use a filter lane and do a U turn? I'm not looking to preach on etiquette etc, its a genuine question on what this part of PH is for.

I imagined "Advanced" was to make safe and sensible progress, understand situations better and be safe. I'm no angel, I have been known to drive above the speed limit for instance, and I was expecting to see more about views on difficult junctions, debates on road position etc in the off chance I learn something. A healthy debate about when to filter in when there is a lane closure would be constructive (I believe if we all filtered at the point of closure when queueing it would avoid all the bumper to bumper blocking etc, but as most people don't do that it's a dilemma whether to drive past everyone and just expect to be let in.)

So my question - is "Advanced driving" about getting from A-B as quickly as possible by being smarter than others by using every trick at your disposal or is it about driving respectfully and considerately, road aware and sympathetic and being safer (which can still be quick where conditions allow)?

To answer your final question: I prefer it to be a bit of the former, but mostly the latter. Others may take a different view. HTH.

[p1esk]

StressedDave said:

It was once said that a good advanced driver could drive a (depending on version) pink/tiger striped Lamborghini from Lands End to John o'Groats without being noticed. I think that still applies - I look upon it as fitting in with the rest of the road users while making progress from A to B. It isn't about being the quickest A to B.

Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a Jaguar E-Type with zebra stripes etc., but no matter.

More importantly, do you not think that driving a powerful car and using full throttle acceleration might get you noticed? It hardly sounds like inconspicuous driving: but I could be wrong of course.

[Martin4x4]

Jon1967x said:

...I was expecting to see more about views on difficult junctions, debates on road position etc in the off chance I learn something.

The problem with this is that too many posters use questions like that to call the poster an idiot; typically proving Darwin's judgement on ignorance in the process, but still stifling discussion.

[Jon1967x]

Martin4x4 said:

The problem with this is that too many posters use questions like that to call the poster an idiot; typically proving Darwin's judgement on ignorance in the process, but still stifling discussion.

Yep.. Some people post like they drive, I was just hoping not to find them on a forum about advanced driving.

[SVS]

Yes, you should find less of them on a forum about advanced driving.

Jon1967x said:

...I was expecting to see more about views on difficult junctions, debates on road position etc in the off chance I learn something.

I agree. These sorts of questions would be a good use of this forum.

[Technomad]

p1esk said:

Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a Jaguar E-Type with zebra stripes etc., but no matter.

More importantly, do you not think that driving a powerful car and using full throttle acceleration might get you noticed? It hardly sounds like inconspicuous driving: but I could be wrong of course.

Doesn't matter what the car is - you need to have the judgement to make the safe and unobtrusive manoeuvre, know that it is and have the self-awareness to know what you can do to make it better next time, however good it was. What you can't control is how some other people will judge and react to the manoeuvre: as long as you don't allow their issues to become yours, you're OK. I had a classic recently where I very carefully planned and executed a multi-vehicle overtake in the wet near Tyndrum - I was just thinking to myself that I'd performed a pretty much textbook overtake when the van that I'd just passed at the head of the queue lit up like a demented Christmas tree and spent the next few miles trying to chase me down, presumably with malicious intent. I was just replaying the whole thing in my head and wondering what on earth I could have done to piss the guy off when my passenger chimed in with congratulations on the overtake. As he is the chair of the HPC's driving standards committee, I thought I'd take his word on it rather than that of vanman. That's just one of the things you need to allow for - a little extra safety margin for the behaviour of the complete s you come across from time to time.

[p1esk]

Technomad said:

p1esk said:

Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a Jaguar E-Type with zebra stripes etc., but no matter.

More importantly, do you not think that driving a powerful car and using full throttle acceleration might get you noticed? It hardly sounds like inconspicuous driving: but I could be wrong of course.

Doesn't matter what the car is - you need to have the judgement to make the safe and unobtrusive manoeuvre, know that it is and have the self-awareness to know what you can do to make it better next time, however good it was. What you can't control is how some other people will judge and react to the manoeuvre: as long as you don't allow their issues to become yours, you're OK. I had a classic recently where I very carefully planned and executed a multi-vehicle overtake in the wet near Tyndrum - I was just thinking to myself that I'd performed a pretty much textbook overtake when the van that I'd just passed at the head of the queue lit up like a demented Christmas tree and spent the next few miles trying to chase me down, presumably with malicious intent. I was just replaying the whole thing in my head and wondering what on earth I could have done to piss the guy off when my passenger chimed in with congratulations on the overtake. As he is the chair of the HPC's driving standards committee, I thought I'd take his word on it rather than that of vanman. That's just one of the things you need to allow for - a little extra safety margin for the behaviour of the complete s you come across from time to time.

Unfortunately there's a tiny minority of drivers (at least it's a tiny minority in my experience) who seem to take offence at any overtaking, no matter how well it is done. I guess we just have to put up with them.

[Toltec]

p1esk said:

Unfortunately there's a tiny minority of drivers (at least it's a tiny minority in my experience) who seem to take offence at any overtaking, no matter how well it is done. I guess we just have to put up with them.

Usually not for very long as they tend to be a rapidly receding dot in the mirrors.


When I was younger it was very much about slicing through the sheep without most of them realising what had just happened. This probably came from growing up in a seaside town and practicing the art of walking through a crowd at three times the speed of average aimlessly wandering holiday maker. Then I rode bikes for a decade or so, which is pretty much the same thing.

Nowadays I am much more cooperative and relaxed, I like the idea trying to make sure if another road user notices or remembers an encounter with me it is only for positives reasons.

[waremark]

So we have got onto the subject of conspicuity. I have recently acquired a car with a very loud exhaust, and a sport button which lets you choose to drive more or less quietly. I love the roar from wide open throttle with the exhaust valve open. I wonder whether and/or why I might aim to be more discrete.

[Jon1967x]

waremark said:

So we have got onto the subject of conspicuity. I have recently acquired a car with a very loud exhaust, and a sport button which lets you choose to drive more or less quietly. I love the roar from wide open throttle with the exhaust valve open. I wonder whether and/or why I might aim to be more discrete.

There are a few AM owners on here. I guess there's being noticed in a good way and bad way. I've had the odd car or van want to compete and I just don't entertain the idea. I''ve also suspected some cars just want to get close to hear the engine!

[7mike]

Jon1967x said:

.... A healthy debate about when to filter in when there is a lane closure would be constructive (I believe if we all filtered at the point of closure when queueing it would avoid all the bumper to bumper blocking etc, but as most people don't do that it's a dilemma whether to drive past everyone and just expect to be let in.)

Honestly, there would be no constructive debate on this one, been done to death over the years (mainly in GG);there are two polar opposite views and never the twain shall meet (although I agree with you )