Hands Placement on Steering Wheel /Track Technique

Hands Placement on Steering Wheel /Track Technique

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Discussion

sidsideways

Original Poster:

417 posts

154 months

Tuesday 4th March 2014
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To save me re-typing all the detail please see my thread under Porsche General but crux is cross arms and regrip technique as I am always told by instructors [particularly rally type instructors] against let go and rely on castor when sliding from one side to the other.

StressedDave

839 posts

261 months

Tuesday 4th March 2014
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Someone said:
I am struggling with finding the best technique as I am told by instructors to not let go of the wheel when requiring more than quarter to 3 can cope with! At extremity of this grip turning left one has to take left hand and replace it across the right forearm to the original 9pm position(now at 3pm) and continue turning wheel the explanation being that the front wheels need controlling at all times in case they hit a change of surface and the driver needs to know at all times when the road wheels are dead ahead of the chassis. Fair enough but what happens when the radius of a long bend is such that it requires exactly the steering wheel turn as at the point of the new grip? One is driving with severely crossed arms for some distance and if the surface is slippery and changeable will also require rapid adjustment of the steering wheel either in this grip position or with rapid grip changes back and forth which is one of the reasons given against other methods.
If one lets go of the wheel at times of rapid transition and regrips at quarter to 3 when judged to be the right time I see the advantage as always being at quarter to 3 with full steering wheel control in the optimum arm position.
I do not, at the point of writing, see that one does not know where the front road wheels are as they are always pointing in the direction of motion of the car whether forwards or sideways due to castor action but I do accept that there must be some loss of control while the steering wheel is spinning freely under castor action.
I look forward to hearing expert opinions as always looking to learn.
Thanks guys!
Cut and paste is your friend...

Short answer - your instructors are trying to get you to drive like them. Ignore them. What may work for them may not work for you. Decide what works for you and use that.

Edited by StressedDave on Tuesday 4th March 10:33

Martin A

344 posts

242 months

Tuesday 4th March 2014
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In Circuit Driver magazine Mark Hales described no less a driver than Walter Rohrl letting the castor do the work while having the wheel slide through his hands.

If it's good enough for him and driving examiners it should be good enough for anyone.

As Stressed Dave says, do whatever works best for you to retain full control

Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Monday 7th April 2014
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You would generally only allow the wheel to slide through your hands using the castor when you need to apply large amounts of lock in a very short time, in other words with extreme oversteer or when drifting.

For conventional track use I'd suggest that a single position is fine for 90+% of the time and that offsetting your hands on the approach to a corner will deal with most of the remaining issues unless something unexpected happens.

ETA, I agree with the comments about finding out what works best for you.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 7th April 2014
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Most of the time on track you'll never be in a situation where fixed input won't do the job. For the occasions it doesn't (hairpins, crashing), whatever you do will be sub-optimal, so it's best to use whichever technique you feel will get you back to a fixed input situation as quickly as possible.

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Monday 7th April 2014
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davepoth said:
For the occasions it doesn't (hairpins, crashing), whatever you do will be sub-optimal
Why?

(Genuine question by the way - I'm not trolling)

And my question relates to hairpins - I can guess why any steering technique would be sub-optimal when you're crashing.

james_gt3rs

4,816 posts

190 months

Tuesday 8th April 2014
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R_U_LOCAL said:
Why?

(Genuine question by the way - I'm not trolling)

And my question relates to hairpins - I can guess why any steering technique would be sub-optimal when you're crashing.
Because whichever technique you use you'll have to take a hand off the wheel momentarily.

Best to have a car with a fast(ish) rack so you can keep the same hand position on every corner.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Saturday 12th April 2014
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james_gt3rs said:
Because whichever technique you use you'll have to take a hand off the wheel momentarily.
Why does that make it sub-optimal? Sub-optimal suggests there is a better way. If keeping your hands on the wheel doesn't get you round the corner, that would be even less optimal surely?

james_gt3rs

4,816 posts

190 months

Monday 14th April 2014
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BertBert said:
james_gt3rs said:
Because whichever technique you use you'll have to take a hand off the wheel momentarily.
Why does that make it sub-optimal? Sub-optimal suggests there is a better way. If keeping your hands on the wheel doesn't get you round the corner, that would be even less optimal surely?
Optimal would be having a quick enough rack for you to keep your hands on the wheel, like most race cars. Maybe it's the wrong word to describe it...

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 14th April 2014
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james_gt3rs said:
BertBert said:
james_gt3rs said:
Because whichever technique you use you'll have to take a hand off the wheel momentarily.
Why does that make it sub-optimal? Sub-optimal suggests there is a better way. If keeping your hands on the wheel doesn't get you round the corner, that would be even less optimal surely?
Optimal would be having a quick enough rack for you to keep your hands on the wheel, like most race cars. Maybe it's the wrong word to describe it...
It's a bit "Ron Dennis". biggrin

As a way of steering, it's sub-optimal. As a way of getting around a corner, a one-handed technique is optimal. You wouldn't choose to take a hand off the wheel if you had the option.

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Tuesday 15th April 2014
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BertBert said:
james_gt3rs said:
Because whichever technique you use you'll have to take a hand off the wheel momentarily.
Why does that make it sub-optimal? Sub-optimal suggests there is a better way. If keeping your hands on the wheel doesn't get you round the corner, that would be even less optimal surely?
I think this was the point I was trying to make. Surely the technique is much less important than the outcome? By which I mean, if the car goes through the corner in a smooth and balanced manner, then the technique is irrelevant?

I occasionally partake in trackdays and I tend to use a combination of fixed quarter to three steering in faster high-load corners and pull-push in tighter, slower corners and that works fine for me.

I'm sure I started a thread on steering back in the day. I'll go and have a search and see what I can find...

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Tuesday 15th April 2014
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Thought so...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Back in the day Reg said:
Steering is one of those skills that we don't really think about. Turn the wheel a certain amount and the car points in the direction you want it to go - simple.

Isn't it?

Not if you read advanced driving manuals it's not - rotational steering is a no-no, push pull is best - or is it pull-push? But rotational steering is actually ok sometimes. What about an emergency though? What's the fastest way to put lock on if things go wrong? Isn't shuffling the wheel the preserve of driving schools and people who smoke pipes?

Questions, questions.

Allow me to simplify things for you. I don't actually care how you hold or turn the wheel, as long as you operate it in the correct manner.

I do care if you're trying to pass a Police course or one of the civilian advanced courses which require pull-push of course. In those circumstances, if you don't demonstrate an ability to use the prescribed technique, then you won't pass the course.

But in every day driving, trust me, I don't care one iota how you turn the wheel, as long as you turn it in the correct way.

But what is the correct way Reg?

I've talked about vehicle balance before - I wrote a whole article on the subject - and the basic principles for steering are exactly the same as for any other driver input. If you're rough with the steering, you'll catch the car unawares, which is something cars don't like - roughness moves the vehicle's weight around quickly and results in the car feeling unsettled, and in extreme cases, can result in a loss of directional stability. Modern vehicles - even the more mundane family cars - have quite high grip levels these days, but you can easily use up all of a cars lateral grip very quickly just by being rough with the wheel.

The way to apply steering lock is to turn the wheel slowly at first, build up the speed of the lock application until you're close to having the right amount of lock applied, and then slow down the application again until the wheel is stationary. Starting with a slow, gradual turn of the wheel starts to gently settle the car onto it's springs rather than suddenly chucking lock on and expecting the car to go immediately from travelling in a straight line, to turning.

I don't mean that you should be excruciatingly slow with the wheel - this technique can be used even at very high speeds and on the track. I just mean that at the point you start to turn the wheel, the speed of lock application should build up and then slow down again, rather than just being done at a constant speed.

Imagine a pendulum swinging from left to right. At the very far reach of it's swing, it's momentarily stationary until gravity starts to swing it the other way. It then starts to accelerate - slowly at first - until it's travelling at a constant speed. As it swings through it's arc, gravity starts to slow it down again until it becomes stationary at the other far reach of it's swing.

Keep that swinging pendulum in mind, and now attach a steering wheel at it's fulcrum (is that the right word? It's been a long time since I did secondary school physics). The pendulum can swing faster or slower, depending on the weight and it's length, but the manner in which it turns is still the same - slow at first, speeding up, and then slowing down again.

It's just as important to use that same technique when taking lock off as well. As you're taking lock off when you're coming out of a corner, the steering action should be accompanied by a degree of acceleration, so to keep the car balanced under that acceleration, the lock should come off slowly at first, then quicker, and finally slowing down until you're pointing straight ahead again.

Of course, this sounds simple enough when applied to a single corner, and in reality, when negotiating a series of corners of varying degrees of sharpness, it's more difficult to apply correctly, but all you're effectively doing is shortening or lengthening the imaginary pendulum to suit each corner.

There are techniques which make this type of steering easier to maintain. If you try pulling the wheel down at the start of a turn you'll usually naturally apply a pendulum effect, which is why the Police, IAM etc, recommend pull-push. You can steer correctly with rotational steering, but it requires a little more concentration and practise, particularly if you like to sit with a straight-arm posture. Straight-arm driving requires the steering input to come more from the shoulder, whereas sitting with arms bent means the steering input comes more from the wrists. If you steer from the shoulder, it's less sensitive, and can be rougher.

So, next time you're out for a drive, just pay a little attention to how you operate the wheel, and have a go at imagining the pendulum effect. If you apply it correctly, you should notice an improvement in the smoothness of your drive, and in the stability of your car through corners.

Gokartmozart

1,644 posts

204 months

Tuesday 15th April 2014
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Nothing to add really, just glad to see Reg posting again.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Tuesday 15th April 2014
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Also with track driving you learn the corners and know if you are going to run out of steering at a corner. It's very simple to take the first chunk of the pull push to turn in IFYSIM.
Bert

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Wednesday 16th April 2014
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We missed you Reg. Such good writing.

One of the reasons for starting to steer slowly is to take up the slack movement in the tyres. When you start to turn the wheel it takes up to a second for all the tyres to have started to push the car in the direction of the steering.

BTW, 'starting to steer' is an expression used by stressed Dave, and may help encourage starting to steer slowly.

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Wednesday 16th April 2014
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there's only one wheel that's doing most of the work and it has to get loaded to work best. If you are on tyres that are temp dependent that it heats it too which helps. So the "two goes at turning" approach works well. I'm not sure it takes a second though.

Bert

MC Bodge

21,551 posts

174 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
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I agree with what I've read above.

When one becomes accustomed to allowing a car/bike to "take a set" with initially gentle, smooth, steady inputs and observation of feedback at the initial stages of a manoeuvre, the overall smoothness and fluidity of driving can increase significantly.

It did for me, anyway.

watchnut

1,161 posts

128 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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Really good, no first class advice about starting the turn slowly......when novices start driving they tend to "twitch" the wheel like they are on a computer game.....it is very unnerving on a main road with a truck coming the other way, and pedestrians on the pavement nearside!

It also reminds me of my wife when asked to "helm" a 36 foot yacht last summer.....(she is a Police standard driver, and i rate her driving as bloody good) she turned the wheel slightly, felt no reaction from the boat at all (as it was not instant) and pulled the wheel over, the rudder suddenly bit, and the resulting turn nearly threw me into the sea. She found it very difficult to steer/helm as she couldn't "feel" the bite of a change of direction. I think that modern power steering systems are also taking out the ability of us to "feel" the wheel/tyres and the contact they have on the road giving us maybe less control than when those of us who learnt to drive with no power steering?

MC Bodge

21,551 posts

174 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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As I mentioned above, pausing to allow a vehicle to "take a set" can help prevent excessive steering inputs.

LFAwhoosh

32 posts

133 months

Wednesday 7th May 2014
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StressedDave said:
Cut and paste is your friend...

Short answer - your instructors are trying to get you to drive like them. Ignore them. What may work for them may not work for you. Decide what works for you and use that.

Edited by StressedDave on Tuesday 4th March 10:33
Usually it's not about 'what works for them' but more about what has worked for possibly the thousands of students they have taught previously in their track driving careers. 'New' techniques are for the Rohrl's and Senna's to experiment with - not someone on their first trackday(!) Awful advice.