Saved by the System…

[Jon1967x]

I don't think I'd have tried the overtake.. Road marking says slow, long centre dashed lines, parking ahead, chevrons, bend to the left so my vision will become obscured once over taking, wet surface, 3 cars., close grouping so I can't drop in mid-line. We don't know the speeds either. 30-40 and I may have done but equally I'd recognise others might.

If you flashed then the car may have thought you'd acknowledged his desire to over take. Not necessarily Highway Code but is common practice.

He should certainly have indicated.

He could also just as equally decided to go a second later and you would have been beside him. If he's not using his mirrors it's just a matter of bad timing.

OP I'm not agreeing of disagreeing, but what I do think is good is we have something to watch and discuss rather than some of the threads where the description of events doesnt stack up.

[7db]

Jon1967x said:

I don't think I'd have tried the overtake..

FWIW, I'd have had that overtake and twice on Sundays. I think the OPs lizard brain probably realised the SEAT was coming and prevented accelerating more than the close. Great. That's what the old reptile is there for.

I rather like the classiness of taking the wide line on the left-hander and not being adjacent mid-corner if possible -- give the target a bit of time to settle if wet/large - but those cars were there for the overtaking. None of that was present on film.

I hope I wouldn't have flashed the SEAT once he committed. Pointless.

[nct001]

Advanced driving and overtaking 3 cars on a bend in the rain with a slow sign and questionable visibility whilst racing car in front...

Come on, this is what we do in jest and not what we put up on you tube and pump our chests out and say we are good drivers for!

The sign says slow, are the other drivers somehow lesser than you?

Only once will op meet "himself" coming the other direction.

[jamesallport]

In fairness to the OP I think it's accepted that he had complete vision of the whole road through the bend & for a good way afterwards. So he could be sure he wouldn't conflict with one towards.

[Jon1967x]

jamesallport said:

In fairness to the OP I think it's accepted that he had complete vision of the whole road through the bend & for a good way afterwards. So he could be sure he wouldn't conflict with one towards.

Including cars that may appear out of the parking area sign posted only a few hundred yards ahead?

[waremark]

Jon1967x said:

jamesallport said:

In fairness to the OP I think it's accepted that he had complete vision of the whole road through the bend & for a good way afterwards. So he could be sure he wouldn't conflict with one towards.

Including cars that may appear out of the parking area sign posted only a few hundred yards ahead?

I expect he had complete vision. I think that looks a reasonable overtaking spot, but would have been anticipating that the close following Seat was also likely to go.

[johnao]

Jon1967x said:

jamesallport said:

In fairness to the OP I think it's accepted that he had complete vision of the whole road through the bend & for a good way afterwards. So he could be sure he wouldn't conflict with one towards.

Including cars that may appear out of the parking area sign posted only a few hundred yards ahead?

The overtake was completed at 12 seconds - the parking area wasn't arrived at until 21 seconds. I don't see that the proximity of the parking area presented a problem.

[Jon1967x]

johnao said:

Jon1967x said:

jamesallport said:

In fairness to the OP I think it's accepted that he had complete vision of the whole road through the bend & for a good way afterwards. So he could be sure he wouldn't conflict with one towards.

Including cars that may appear out of the parking area sign posted only a few hundred yards ahead?

The overtake was completed at 12 seconds - the parking area wasn't arrived at until 21 seconds. I don't see that the proximity of the parking area presented a problem.

I admit I'm more cautious than most. A car pulling out the parking lot and driving towards you will reduce that 9s gap. As I said earlier, it depended on the speed of the traffic you're overtaking and I've certainly been in the position when I'd have been tempted due to frustration.

The way I look at these things sometimes is how I'd defend myself in court if the worst happened. So you ignored the road marking saying slow, the markings to indicate a tight bend, the poor weather conditions, the parking ahead and tried to overtake 3 cars? My lawyer would earn his money that day!

[Dr Jekyll]

Jon1967x said:

So you ignored the road marking saying slow, the markings to indicate a tight bend, the poor weather conditions, the parking ahead and tried to overtake 3 cars? My lawyer would earn his money that day!

SLOW is a relative term and has no legal significance. You could argue that it makes it a good place to overtake because all the vehicles involved are likely to be going more slowly.

Markings indicating a tight bend do not prohibit overtaking.

The OP got back on the left side of the road well before the parking area.

Nothing illegal about overtaking in the rain.

No reason to think the OP ignored any of these things.

[waremark]

Jon1967x said:

I've certainly been in the position when I'd have been tempted due to frustration.

The way I look at these things sometimes is how I'd defend myself in court if the worst happened.

I hope frustration would not have affected the driving in any way. Personally I would not expect to have experienced frustration.

My concern is with the safety of an overtake rather than with what might happen if it went wrong.

My reasons for being cautious about this particular overtake are all to do with the two cars in front. I would have been anticipating that either or both might also be looking for an overtake, and I hope I would have given a warning with time to respond before committing myself.

[jbsportstech]

I have to say I was suprised you choose there to overtake and 3 cars going into a bend with slow in the carriageway. Whilst your understanding of the correct overtaking technique for roadcraft I think your selection of location needs work.

I think you have to be very careful how you use your horn and I apart form the fact wouldnt of been on overtake in the same spot the toot of your horn whilst well intentioned may have been completely misinterupted by th seat driver. Baring in mind most drivers use the horn to demonstrate displeasure he may of taken as a dig at his/her driving and thats why they pulled out.

I would of tighten up into contact position for the exit of the left hander were overtaking 3 cars would of been alot safer. I think had police bee coming the otherway they may well have stopped to ask why you overtake 3 cars on the entry to tight left hander with road markings such as slow. It could be viewed as without due care had anything gone wrong.

So in my opinion you were not saved by the system you were just lucky.

If systematic in the information phase I would say you take the slow in the in the road and use that information to decide your overtake should be delayed till clear of of the hazzard.


Apart form the system IPSGA lets look >Then you look and SVS (Safety View Stablity)

Safety- Consider multiable overtake of 3 vehicles not ideal on a bend your (TETD) Time Exposed To Danger is higher than necessary. We have already decided that the bend with slow in the carraigeway is a potential hazzard and so overtake not sound. but looking at all seperatley>

View- Did you choice of positioning afford you the best view of the carraigeway ahead no it gave you view into a tight left hander/cancel overtake. 70- 90 degree bend not great for view. At this stage another chance to cancel overtake on the grounds its not sound.

Stability - A straight line is the most stable line. Overtaking through a curve is not the most stable line to take at speed and 3 cars again refer TETD not acceptable. There was no option of a straight lining or cleaning up the line to make it more stable for the car.


Best course of action now we have considered SVS&TETD (Which I do for each of overtake) if to gently move into contact position upon exiting the left hander on teh much straighter section then mirrors and out for final check that overtake is still on. Then additional power on and away with smooth transition back to the left hadn after 3 vehicle passed.




Whilst your passion for the system is admirable I think you need to consider your overtakes and use of horn as your keeness to perform systmatic ones is not allowing you to consider the manouver in full detail. Have you tried commentray driving as identifying the slow and otehr road markings in your commnetary may well of made you think alittle more about whether it was sound place to be offside of 3 vehicles.

[7mike]

Whilst not wishing to come across as confrontational or (god forbid) sarcastic; I have a real hang up with acronyms. If you really can't drive without a set of letters to remind you what to do then just stick to the DSA (or is it DVSA yet?)basics; MSMPSLLADA

Last time I saw an overtake on a sweeping left bend like that btw, was being done by a plod training vehicle passing the guy I was training

[jbsportstech]

7mike said:

Whilst not wishing to come across as confrontational or (god forbid) sarcastic; I have a real hang up with acronyms. If you really can't drive without a set of letters to remind you what to do then just stick to the DSA (or is it DVSA yet?)basics; MSMPSLLADA

Last time I saw an overtake on a sweeping left bend like that btw, was being done by a plod training vehicle passing the guy I was training

Ok I was using the acryonm to help the OP to consider the, if you dont like them fine not everyone does but the letters often helps trigger the thought process. I didnt come up with them these they have been taught but some of the best police driving instructors in the country, I was simply passing them on in an effort to help. In my experience they work very well.

If plod want to train people to pass on bends like fine I didnt say it would be unsound for everyone I even considered mentioning that emergency service driver on a shout may choose to but for a causal drive for someone like the op you cant argue that the impending straight is a much better place to perform such a manouver.

Also you have to consider I dont know the abilities of the op and this is public forum so one has to be very carful what information you put on here when not being delivered with a full training package such as you were to the your driver. I assume he/she was on an advanced course and had already been assessed by yourself/other and most likley held a standard response ticket. You have to give advice based on the safety. As you will know you must air of side of caution when taking about stepping over centre/hazard line on public forums.

There are alot of things you can do under the cover of emergency service driving that you can't under the civilian advanced banner. One is ignore basic safety information in the carriageway as in my experience whilst the police have excemptions members of the public who overtake on bends with carriageway markings tend to feel the full force of the law should anything go wrong. In my experience one of those is must take notice of safety signing and markings in the carriageway such as SLOW. This could be considered dangerous or without due care if ignoring it leads to an incident.

I take it you agree with the overtake? You dont seem to have passed judgement on ther drive, just my use of reconised acronyms. I am ulitmately trying to get the driver into a save overtake mindset lowering his.her risk profile and not leading them into any action that could be questionable under law. I would suggest and reafirm my believe had a RPU vehicle been coming the other way they may well of asked why the driver choose that place to overtake.

Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 10th March 15:15

Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 10th March 15:17

[Dr Jekyll]

When I did my Bikesafe course and the class of civilians, most of whom had little if any post test training, was told specifically that there was nothing wrong with overtaking on bends.

[StressedDave]

jbsportstech said:

If plod want to train people to pass on bends like fine I didnt say it would be unsound for everyone I even considered mentioning that emergency service driver on a shout may choose to but for a causal drive for someone like the op you cant argue that the impending straight is a much better place to perform such a manouver.

But a) you may not know there is an impending straight and b) even if you do, you don't know that said straight won't be full of a wagon train of caravans. You take the opportunity when it is presented rather than relying on local knowledge.

I'm with 7Mike on this one... there is nothing wrong with overtaking on or around a bend provided you have the space, time and stability in which to do it. I've performed that particular overtake a number of times over the last 15 years. I might take issue with timing, i.e. making sure I'm in a particular position with regard to the overtaking vehicles at the points where they will be turning.

[jbsportstech]

Dr Jekyll said:

When I did my Bikesafe course and the class of civilians, most of whom had little if any post test training, was told specifically that there was nothing wrong with overtaking on bends.

Bit of sweeping statement. However I am not a biker and have not training to comment on what is sound for a rider to do. Al I know is the make up a very high proportion of accidents when there arent many of them on the on roads.

Each situation has to be judged individualy.

Personally I think its poor mindest and lack of self disacpline to overtake 3 cars on the left hander when the straight/almost section is coming up. I have gone over my reasoning for it in detail and so far no one has pulled apart the reasoning they have just made statments stating overtaking on bends ok.


I am trying to balance enjoyable progressive driving with safety.

For the sake of 15-20 seconds the overtake could of been so much safer the horn use aside.

That ulitmately has to be goal of any advanced driving lowering risk profile and doing what is safe for all concerned.

[jbsportstech]

StressedDave said:

But a) you may not know there is an impending straight and b) even if you do, you don't know that said straight won't be full of a wagon train of caravans. You take the opportunity when it is presented rather than relying on local knowledge.

I'm with 7Mike on this one... there is nothing wrong with overtaking on or around a bend provided you have the space, time and stability in which to do it. I've performed that particular overtake a number of times over the last 15 years. I might take issue with timing, i.e. making sure I'm in a particular position with regard to the overtaking vehicles at the points where they will be turning.

Yes ok stating that you still have to consider road markings and the fact that its 3 vehicles. Dave in this cause having reviewed all the information from the OPs vid would you have done the same or would you have weighted.

I think in your posts it eludes to not righting off overtaking on a bend like that alltogther.

I certainly wouldnt of tooted the horn I thin it invited the seat to do what they did.

Edited by jbsportstech on Monday 10th March 15:35

[StressedDave]

Honestly, I'd have invested in a dictionary or spell checker before posting on the forum. My eyes bleed from the combination of malapropisms and misspelled words in your posts.

For me the video started too late. There's a lot of road space before the video started that I'd like to have seen before making some grand pronouncement on what I would have done with the benefit of hindsight. In any case there's no such thing for me as a three-car overtake (it would most probably been a four car overtake, but then I practice my overtaking a lot ), but instead three separate one car overtakes. I simply can't justify or condemn the OP's behaviour on the limited evidence provided in the YouTube video.

[7mike]

jbsportstech said:

I take it you agree with the overtake? You dont seem to have passed judgement on ther drive, just my use of reconised acronyms.

Forgive me editing your post down but I'll refer to this bit; I try to avoid criticising other people's choices, they get enough flack posting here as it is perhaps if I were to join the ranks of critics however, the only thing that looked a bit suspect to me was how early the op moved back to the nearside after passing the leading vehicle. There again I don't know if distance & time are conveyed well on video?

As for the use of acronyms; I'm sure they suit some people's learning styles, to me they just seem to make everything so rigid / black & white which most circumstances are not. No offence intended.

[jbsportstech]

7mike said:

Forgive me editing your post down but I'll refer to this bit; I try to avoid criticising other people's choices, they get enough flack posting here as it is perhaps if I were to join the ranks of critics however, the only thing that looked a bit suspect to me was how early the op moved back to the nearside after passing the leading vehicle. There again I don't know if distance & time are conveyed well on video?

As for the use of acronyms; I'm sure they suit some people's learning styles, to me they just seem to make everything so rigid / black & white which most circumstances are not. No offence intended.

No thats fine its always going to be different for alot fo people.

Like I said on a forum I try to convey the saftest msg to suit any end user not knowing the op.


Maybe I have old fashion approach to the system.