Saved by the System…

[SK425]

StressedDave said:

jbsportstech said:

If plod want to train people to pass on bends like fine I didnt say it would be unsound for everyone I even considered mentioning that emergency service driver on a shout may choose to but for a causal drive for someone like the op you cant argue that the impending straight is a much better place to perform such a manouver.

But a) you may not know there is an impending straight and b) even if you do, you don't know that said straight won't be full of a wagon train of caravans. You take the opportunity when it is presented rather than relying on local knowledge.

Indeed. It doesn't make sense to me to use the likelihood of further opportunities ahead to decide whether this opportunity is a good one. You can't know that the opportunities ahead will actually be available so why pass up on a good opportunity now? Or if you don't think the bend is a good opportunity, what if you knew there won't be any more opportunities for a while, what are you going to do - take a dodgy one now because it's the best you're going to get?

Personally, I don't see anything inherently wrong with overtaking on a bend like the OP did.

Looking at the video, I suspect the Seat driver knew full well the OP was there and wanted to make sure he didn't suffer the ignominy of being beaten to an overtake by a driver behind.

Edited by SK425 on Monday 10th March 17:14

[robbyd]

Didn't look that bad to me - the Seat pulls over the lines at pretty well the same time as OP's car, just not to the same extent.

Often happens that two people happen to choose same manoeuvre at same time - such as pulling back from L3 to L2 just as someone decides to come out from L1.

[jbsportstech]

SK425 said:

Indeed. It doesn't make sense to me to use the likelihood of further opportunities ahead to decide whether this opportunity is a good one. You can't know that the opportunities ahead will actually be available so why pass up on a good opportunity now? Or if you don't think the bend is a good opportunity, what if you knew there won't be any more opportunities for a while, what are you going to do - take a dodgy one now because it's the best you're going to get?

Personally, I don't see anything inherently wrong with overtaking on a bend like the OP did.

Looking at the video, I suspect the Seat driver knew full well the OP was there and wanted to make sure he didn't suffer the ignominy of being beaten to an overtake by a driver behind.

Edited by SK425 on Monday 10th March 17:14

ok the issue of a left hand sign posted deviation and slow warning in the carriageway aside.

The other issue is op contact position was a little far back unless it's just the wide angle lens and he probably cut his line a bit tight on the last car when returning to his side of road.


It was probably the lack of contact that meant the seat driver has opportunity to pop out. I not sure during my information phase I would give the toot certainly not that far off the first car.

[creampuff]

The decision to overtake looked OK to me, although I'm assuming there was a good view over to the left for some distance before the start of the video.

[waremark]

jbsportstech said:

ok the issue of a left hand sign posted deviation and slow warning in the carriageway aside.

The other issue is op contact position was a little far back unless it's just the wide angle lens and he probably cut his line a bit tight on the last car when returning to his side of road.


It was probably the lack of contact that meant the seat driver has opportunity to pop out. I not sure during my information phase I would give the toot certainly not that far off the first car.

Now we are on the same wavelength.

[jbsportstech]

waremark said:

Now we are on the same wavelength.

I am just airing on the side of caution when posting advice on a public forum. I still think the point of the highways furniture and markings are valid. They are warnings and should you come acropper you have been warned and still you choose to overtake in that spot.

[waremark]

jbsportstech said:

waremark said:

Now we are on the same wavelength.

I am just airing on the side of caution when posting advice on a public forum. I still think the point of the highways furniture and markings are valid. They are warnings and should you come acropper you have been warned and still you choose to overtake in that spot.

If you are worried about coming a cropper, then you shouldn't overtake! You only overtake if the vision and other aspects allow you to be confident that it is safe, which it may well be in spite of the furniture and markings.

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is that it illustrates how easy it is to deceive oneself about exactly what has happened, and to fail to see the other guy's point of view.

[Jon1967x]

waremark said:

If you are worried about coming a cropper, then you shouldn't overtake! You only overtake if the vision and other aspects allow you to be confident that it is safe, which it may well be in spite of the furniture and markings.

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is that it illustrates how easy it is to deceive oneself about exactly what has happened, and to fail to see the other guy's point of view.

Driving is a constant evaluation of risks and what we're each prepared to take differ from person to person and time to time, plus we all calculate differently.

I made a point earlier about how I might be more inclined to overtake if I'd become frustrated stuck behind them. This was not meant to say I'd be reckless, just that I'd tolerate a little more risk. Lower speed of traffic lowers risk too which would also increase my inclination. Equally knowing I might be near my destination might make me not bother even considering it. No overtake is 100% safe.

I saw road marking, chevrons and rain as risk factors and part of that is the risk of prosecution as well as an accident. As an example driving above the speed limit carries risk. I own a car that can according to spec do 170+ mph - would I drive at even 2/3 that on a straight empty motorway knowing a ban if caught? Probably not

None of us are right or wrong really, there are few absolutes in a situation like the one the OP was in.

Ps.. It would have ended as an unholy mess if the second car inline pulled out and took the other two with it!

[SVS]

As an aside, I wonder how much the OP has thought about his mindset. If you're hunting for an overtake, the consequence of a misjudgement could well be a dangerous overtake. Whereas if you're on the lookout for reasons not to overtake, the consequence of a misjudgement is merely a missed overtake.

The downside of some advanced training can be how the "need" to make progress impacts mindest. I suffered from this in HPC and it took a while for me to change. Now I enjoy making progress, but my mind's constantly looking for reasons not to overtake. I'm much safer and, incidentally, any change in pace hasn't been noticeable to others.

[jbsportstech]

SVS said:

As an aside, I wonder how much the OP has thought about his mindset. If you're hunting for an overtake, the consequence of a misjudgement could well be a dangerous overtake. Whereas if you're on the lookout for reasons not to overtake, the consequence of a misjudgement is merely a missed overtake.

The downside of some advanced training can be how the "need" to make progress impacts mindest. I suffered from this in HPC and it took a while for me to change. Now I enjoy making progress, but my mind's constantly looking for reasons not to overtake. I'm much safer and, incidentally, any change in pace hasn't been noticeable to others.

I agree, would the op have done the same overtake on iam or Rospa test ?

It's a consequence of being taught good overtaking practice you become keen to practice it.

[Red Devil]

I find driving in the Highlands far more enjoyable than south of the border due to the lack of hedges and trees which makes for far better visibility. The 'P' sign tells us the layby is 400 metres ahead. The video gives a considerably more restricted field of view than a driver would have. If you look at the location here you can see that once you reach the entry to the layby on the right the path of the road is visible for around 500 metres ahead to where it bends to the right around the hillside in the middle distance.

The SEAT driver waits for a full 3 seconds after the oncoming car has passed before commencing his overtake. Why? My bet is that he realised that the OP had started to make his move, decided he didn't want to be beaten to the punch and thus have to wait until after the bend to do likewise.

Have a look at overtakes 14 & 15 in RU Local's vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvrhb1mDkYs
See this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Where you can see that the road is clear an overtake on a left hand bend is not automatically unsafe.
When following another driver it's not hard to get a feel about what they might or might not do.
That isn't to say you can't be caught out but an experienced driver's 'sixth sense' often spots the dodgy ones.

Edited by Red Devil on Tuesday 25th March 10:56

[Mojocvh]

I didn't see anything wrong with either overtake, it's when they pull out when you are alongside [x2 so far for me, incl x1 write off] that's the nasty bit.

I did see, however, indications both on the video and subsequent discussion here, to question the OP's psychological attitudes.....pity we weren't allowed to see the preceding action...

Edited by Mojocvh on Tuesday 25th March 14:33

[hman]

mybrainhurts said:

hman said:

This is what dashcams are best at recording - actual events.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLWVPd80OQ

You do know stopping on the hard shoulder gets you 3 points, don't you?

Only when not in an emergency - the post accident condition of the driver was unknown and there was debris in the road which created an emergency situation.

I checked the driver to make sure they were ok (shaken up only) and cleared the debris out of the road whilst another driver (who also stopped on the hard shoulder) called the emergency services.

When the police arrived I assisted in updating them with what had happened and was genuinely thanked by the police for stopping and helping out.

They certainly didn't prosecute me for stopping on the hard shoulder

[Jon1967x]

I thought if you came across an accident you were supposed to use your car to block the road behind with your hazards on.. on a motorway in those conditions it could be fatal for the car if someone crashed into it I guess. (That's not a dig.. its a question on what to do)

[hman]

I have never heard of that! - and as you say it would be extremely dangerous and very likely make a bad situation into a fatal one.

DON'T DO IT!

[Jon1967x]

I'm not saying block the motorway, I'm saying only behind the accident where your lights/hazards are working and so more visible. On a country road you'd park somewhere to provide warning.

If the person needed treatment or staggered out of their car confused it would provide a degree of protection to life, a car is replaceable.

I've blocked a motorway before now when a motorcyclist came off in the fast lane. It was heavy traffic but it still needed to be done.

The alternative is a car driving into the accident scene without warning

[jbsportstech]

Jon1967x said:

I'm not saying block the motorway, I'm saying only behind the accident where your lights/hazards are working and so more visible. On a country road you'd park somewhere to provide warning.

If the person needed treatment or staggered out of their car confused it would provide a degree of protection to life, a car is replaceable.

I've blocked a motorway before now when a motorcyclist came off in the fast lane. It was heavy traffic but it still needed to be done.

The alternative is a car driving into the accident scene without warning

Its comenable you have done that but no agency would advise. Only the emergency services or hatos are legaly allowed to that.


I would not reccomend stoping in a live lane of a multi lane carriagway to protect a broken down/accident damaged vehicle. Its a very dangerous manouver. Even in a fully marked highways agency lights chapter 8 etc vehicle I cant stop in a live lane unless I have a IPV (wagon with crash cushion) and TM crew with me.

Hard shoulder is not that safe either but better

Move to the hard shoudler or layby on some dual track live carrigeways are very dangerous places

[Jon1967x]

As it happens I didn't have much choice without running him over. The heavy traffic also meant as we all had to stop as we saw it I left the car there and the stationary traffic started to filter round. I think it was appropriate but it's made me wonder about the incident in the clip.

I'm sure I'd heard of the advice somewhere, maybe it's a country lane thing (?)

[hman]

maybe you dreamt it.

[IT1GTR]

Thanks for putting up the video, it takes some guts to post your driving up to be micro-analysed and pulled apart by the masses on PH


That said I have a few observations:


I have no issue with the spot chosen to overtake, looks like a very nice bit of road and the visibility is there.

I would however, have been temped to drop back a just a bit from the Seat when he went for his overtake, just mindful that if he/she were to cock it up, your options of escape are very limited.

Also you did seem to chop the nose off the Citroen a little bit, although that could be the camera angle. If you have the view round the corner, why return to the nearside atall? You could continue your line round the bend coming out the the corner straddling the centre white line, maintaining your view down the straight and past the Seat / parking area etc.


Just my 2 cents - *puts on flame retardant suit*