Near-miss. My fault I think.
Discussion
Byff said:
I was the person going straight ahead and the other driver tried to accelerate past me to exit, didn't work and rammed me off the road.
This was what I think nearly happened to me, minus trying to accelerate past the chap on my inside, that is. Thanks for your input and sorry to hear about the collision; hope you and any occupants were ok.Byff said:
I see this happening all the time on a local roundabout of the same layout, to the point where I have actually made contact with someone. I was the person going straight ahead and the other driver tried to accelerate past me to exit, didn't work and rammed me off the road.
The left lane is for straight ahead and turning left, with a choice of which lane to use.
The right lane is for turning right.
The only argument is if someone on the right goes straight ahead, when i'd expect filtering to occur.
But on a regular two lane roundabout with 4 exits at let's say 3, 6, 9, ans 12, on approach from 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock, both lanes can, and are used. But I think that's what you mean.The left lane is for straight ahead and turning left, with a choice of which lane to use.
The right lane is for turning right.
The only argument is if someone on the right goes straight ahead, when i'd expect filtering to occur.
If not, Aberdeen for one would come to a grinding halt.. That apart I hate multi lanes, especially in unfamiliar territory, and please god, explain to those nupties indicating does help, if you want to turn left at an exit road, bloody indicate, save me waiting assuming you are going to continue past me waiting to turn onto the roundabout, mini rant over.
Vipers said:
But on a regular two lane roundabout with 4 exits at let's say 3, 6, 9, ans 12, on approach from 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock, both lanes can, and are used. But I think that's what you mean.
My car was fine, Lincoln Navigator -vs- Vauxhall Corsa. There was a lovely 22" ring of rubber from my tyre on her door. No other damage fortunately.
Byff said:
Vipers said:
But on a regular two lane roundabout with 4 exits at let's say 3, 6, 9, ans 12, on approach from 6 o'clock to exit at 12 o'clock, both lanes can, and are used. But I think that's what you mean.
My car was fine, Lincoln Navigator -vs- Vauxhall Corsa. There was a lovely 22" ring of rubber from my tyre on her door. No other damage fortunately.
SMB said:
I have to disagree I'm afraid.
You disagree that it's possible to carry out this manoeuvre without committing the offence of dangerous driving? SMB said:
50% plus of those in the left lane will go straight over here as is a main route bypassing Worthing.
I think there may be some talking at cross purposes going on here. You are clearly familiar with this roundabout and the prevailing traffic flows, whereas I think johnao is talking more generally: how to think about using lanes of least resistance on roundabouts. Local knowledge is obviously going to be very helpful in understanding where opportunities are more or less likely. But as with any overtake, as you assess it, deciding it's not on after all has got to be an option you keep in mind.SMB said:
In my book there is never a case to turn first left from the right hand lane on such a junction.
I'm generally wary of blanket statements like that. For example, I routinely turn left from the right hand lane here without any difficulty. Of course, you don't need local knowledge to realise that precious few people are going to be going straight on there, but they could be and I must not proceed simply on the assumption that someone to my left will be turning left.SMB said:
It's an accident waiting to happen.
Only if you don't switch your brain on. Hence the need for heightened awareness and anticipation, as has been mentioned. And hence the need for an option (one is readily available) if you don't manage to negotiate the space you need.Vipers said:
It might work, but it isn't right, and no doubt you know it as well.
In what sense is it not right? Later on, I might find myself on this well sighted stretch. When I overtake there I have to drive in the wrong lane to do it too. Is that not right either?SK425 said:
Vipers said:
It might work, but it isn't right, and no doubt you know it as well.
In what sense is it not right? Later on, I might find myself on this well sighted stretch. When I overtake there I have to drive in the wrong lane to do it too. Is that not right either?In your second I don't understand why think you are in the wrong lane, nothing I can see prevents you using what is essentially the middle lane, except be bloody carefull.
Edited by Vipers on Thursday 27th March 21:42
Vipers said:
If you are going to exit on the next exit after you enter that roundabout you should be in the inside lane, the only cars in the inside lane on the rounabout who are going to take the same exit you are, are those who entered from your right.
Ummm... the objective is overtaking. I'm fairly sure that's not going to happen if I'm in the same lane as the vehicle(s) I wish to pass. Vipers said:
In your second I don't understand why think you are in the wrong lane, nothing I can see prevents you using what is essentially the middle lane, except be bloody carefull.
Ah - maybe the photo's a bit misleading. That's a single carriageway with one lane in each direction. Overtaking on such a road involves driving in the lane that's for oncoming traffic. That's as wrong as the roundabout manoeuvre we're discussing (i.e. not at all wrong as long as you're bloody careful).johnao said:
SMB said:
I have to disagree I'm afraid. ... There are rules for a reason. If you make your own up. It's an accident waiting to happen.
1. What is the specific rule in this situation?
2. Please state the authority upon which you are relying for this rule?
Rule 186
Sk425, I think you sum it up in a few sentences there,
you have no local knowledge of traffic flows so anything against normal road rules as posted earlier re Highway Code is at your risk, It clearly is a risky move, as others accept you may need to bail and go right round the roundabout, if you continued in such a move and tried to complete the left turn a policeman may decide to call that dangerous driving as you deliberately caused the accident whilst doing something outside the Highway Code rules.
you are effectively trying to overtake on the roundabout, any accident is likely to be classed as your fault as the individual on the left will be following the Highway Code
The only scenario allowing 2 lames to turn first left would have arrows on the lanes on on a sign confirming such.
you have no local knowledge of traffic flows so anything against normal road rules as posted earlier re Highway Code is at your risk, It clearly is a risky move, as others accept you may need to bail and go right round the roundabout, if you continued in such a move and tried to complete the left turn a policeman may decide to call that dangerous driving as you deliberately caused the accident whilst doing something outside the Highway Code rules.
you are effectively trying to overtake on the roundabout, any accident is likely to be classed as your fault as the individual on the left will be following the Highway Code
The only scenario allowing 2 lames to turn first left would have arrows on the lanes on on a sign confirming such.
SK425 said:
Vipers said:
If you are going to exit on the next exit after you enter that roundabout you should be in the inside lane, the only cars in the inside lane on the rounabout who are going to take the same exit you are, are those who entered from your right.
Ummm... the objective is overtaking. I'm fairly sure that's not going to happen if I'm in the same lane as the vehicle(s) I wish to pass. Vipers said:
In your second I don't understand why think you are in the wrong lane, nothing I can see prevents you using what is essentially the middle lane, except be bloody carefull.
Ah - maybe the photo's a bit misleading. That's a single carriageway with one lane in each direction. Overtaking on such a road involves driving in the lane that's for oncoming traffic. That's as wrong as the roundabout manoeuvre we're discussing (i.e. not at all wrong as long as you're bloody careful).P.S. To save you looking it up, extract from the HC. Roundabouts.
186
Signals and position
When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
Edited by Vipers on Thursday 27th March 22:23
Edited by Vipers on Thursday 27th March 22:24
A quick one for you guys on a similar subject.
See the A167 approaching this roundabout from the North: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Two lanes roll in and two lanes off as the 167 heads South East in to Newcastle City Centre.
When home, I'll always take the right hand lane and pass 5 or 6 cars in to the roundabout, not only passing them, but getting a much better view of the traffic from the right. More often than not, I can get away without touching the brakes. I exit in the right hand lane.
I've had other drivers giving me the finger, horns, near misses and all sorts of aggression thrown my way whilst doing it. More often than not however, I think it's jealousy of my lane/line choice.
Here's the caveat. Jump in to street view and you'll see the arrows marked on the road for left turn in the left hand lane, and straight on/right in the right hand lane. There's no straight on, or if there is, there's certainly no additional left hand turn (remember, only 3 exits total) unless you count the one that is substantially beyond the roundabout and only acts as a route for buses/KFC.
Surely I'm doing nothing wrong here? Of course, I expect a driver in the lefthand lane to cut across me on exit - it does and has happened form time to time - but I believe I'm good enough to predict it happening and avoid any sort of collision. The point is I'm willing to take the "risk" of it, and, if it resulted in an accident I feel I'm within my rights to use the roundabout as I have done.
Your thoughts please chaps?
EDIT: It's worth noting that I drive with an outlook of, even when within your rights, you should only put yourself in a position that could cause an accident if you accept beforehand that an accident could take place, even if the fault is technically not yours. Sitting in someone's blindspot for example will only cause issues, and yet you could offically place blame on the driver who moves in to your piece of road. Only sit in the blindspot if you're expecting a collision to take place (and don't be surprised if it does!)
See the A167 approaching this roundabout from the North: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Two lanes roll in and two lanes off as the 167 heads South East in to Newcastle City Centre.
When home, I'll always take the right hand lane and pass 5 or 6 cars in to the roundabout, not only passing them, but getting a much better view of the traffic from the right. More often than not, I can get away without touching the brakes. I exit in the right hand lane.
I've had other drivers giving me the finger, horns, near misses and all sorts of aggression thrown my way whilst doing it. More often than not however, I think it's jealousy of my lane/line choice.
Here's the caveat. Jump in to street view and you'll see the arrows marked on the road for left turn in the left hand lane, and straight on/right in the right hand lane. There's no straight on, or if there is, there's certainly no additional left hand turn (remember, only 3 exits total) unless you count the one that is substantially beyond the roundabout and only acts as a route for buses/KFC.
Surely I'm doing nothing wrong here? Of course, I expect a driver in the lefthand lane to cut across me on exit - it does and has happened form time to time - but I believe I'm good enough to predict it happening and avoid any sort of collision. The point is I'm willing to take the "risk" of it, and, if it resulted in an accident I feel I'm within my rights to use the roundabout as I have done.
Your thoughts please chaps?
EDIT: It's worth noting that I drive with an outlook of, even when within your rights, you should only put yourself in a position that could cause an accident if you accept beforehand that an accident could take place, even if the fault is technically not yours. Sitting in someone's blindspot for example will only cause issues, and yet you could offically place blame on the driver who moves in to your piece of road. Only sit in the blindspot if you're expecting a collision to take place (and don't be surprised if it does!)
Edited by DHB07 on Thursday 27th March 23:31
SMB said:
Sk425, I think you sum it up in a few sentences there,
you have no local knowledge of traffic flows
No, but as I said, possible cross purposes: I (and I think johnao too) am not talking about specifically the A283 A24 roundabout. I'm talking about the general concept of considering the lane of least resistance at roundabouts. Part of which is taking account of any local knowledge you have of, and being aware when you don't.you have no local knowledge of traffic flows
SMB said:
so anything against normal road rules as posted earlier re Highway Code is at your risk, It clearly is a risky move, as others accept you may need to bail and go right round the roundabout, if you continued in such a move and tried to complete the left turn a policeman may decide to call that dangerous driving as you deliberately caused the accident whilst doing something outside the Highway Code rules.
I'm in no doubt that it's possible to commit the offence of dangerous driving whilst attempting this manoeuvre. There are countless opportunities to commit the offence every time one gets behind the wheel. What I dispute is the apparent suggestion that it's impossible to ever perform this manoeuvre without committing the offence. That's what seemed to be being suggested, but maybe I've misinterpreted something.Continuing around the roundabout is an escape route in the same way that braking and dropping back in behind is an escape route if you misjudge an overtake on a stretch of road. If I had to bail out in either of those ways it would be time for some reflection on my thought processes and planning leading up to the aborted overtake - like the OP is doing.
Vipers said:
No point discussing overtaking on a single carriageway.
Why not? It can go as horribly wrong - probably more horribly - than overtaking on a roundabout.Vipers said:
And all I can say is read up on roundabout procedure, and be carefull out there, you may be heading for disaster.
I know what the HC says (and someone's already posted it).SK425 said:
I'd be cautious of other drivers around me
it's definitely not valid to assume people won't be using the left lane to do something fairly normal like going straight on
always assume that someone who has the opportunity to cut across you like this is going to
If you're going to pass someone on the roundabout, get on with it so you can be alongside a gap again.
But as with any overtake, as you assess it, deciding it's not on after all has got to be an option you keep in mind.
I must not proceed simply on the assumption that someone to my left will be turning left.
Thank you for your concern it's definitely not valid to assume people won't be using the left lane to do something fairly normal like going straight on
always assume that someone who has the opportunity to cut across you like this is going to
If you're going to pass someone on the roundabout, get on with it so you can be alongside a gap again.
But as with any overtake, as you assess it, deciding it's not on after all has got to be an option you keep in mind.
I must not proceed simply on the assumption that someone to my left will be turning left.
. Rest assured that being careful is very much at the forefront of my mind.DHB07 said:
A quick one for you guys on a similar subject.
See the A167 approaching this roundabout from the North: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Two lanes roll in and two lanes off as the 167 heads South East in to Newcastle City Centre.
Here's the caveat. Jump in to street view and you'll see the arrows marked on the road for left turn in the left hand lane, and straight on/right in the right hand lane. There's no straight on, or if there is, there's certainly no additional left hand turn (remember, only 3 exits total) unless you count the one that is substantially beyond the roundabout and only acts as a route for buses/KFC.
Surely I'm doing nothing wrong here?
Your doing nothing wrong. Looking on street view further back is a sign stating "For A167 (City Center) Use both lanes" and a clear image of the lane layout. The painted arrows on the road are implying that the left exit is straight ahead IMHO.See the A167 approaching this roundabout from the North: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Two lanes roll in and two lanes off as the 167 heads South East in to Newcastle City Centre.
Here's the caveat. Jump in to street view and you'll see the arrows marked on the road for left turn in the left hand lane, and straight on/right in the right hand lane. There's no straight on, or if there is, there's certainly no additional left hand turn (remember, only 3 exits total) unless you count the one that is substantially beyond the roundabout and only acts as a route for buses/KFC.
Surely I'm doing nothing wrong here?
People commenting on there being 2 exits left.. Without local knowledge you don't know this so you shouldn't rely on it as others without that knowledge will make authodox judgements.
The junction below, travelling west on the a5 is a horror story of bad lane discipline. There are lane markings but many cars go down the right between the 2 mini roundabouts to turn left.
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Any thoughts on the right lane to be in as you approach the first junction to exit the other side on the a5?
The junction below, travelling west on the a5 is a horror story of bad lane discipline. There are lane markings but many cars go down the right between the 2 mini roundabouts to turn left.
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Any thoughts on the right lane to be in as you approach the first junction to exit the other side on the a5?
Bottom line from me to put aside local knowledge debate, if it's signed on either the road or post as a valid lane then it's ok, if it's not signed then no. You may consider yourself safe, but the other party will be unaware of your intended action. Be aware also that if the lanes are marked on the road, there is a fair chance the other drivers won't have even seen them (due to cars in front, worn markings, or more likely they weren't even looking)
Given the size of the roundabout in this case , even braking and dropping back might cause an accident behind, I could see that only being an option on something more the size of a motorway exit junction.
Given the size of the roundabout in this case , even braking and dropping back might cause an accident behind, I could see that only being an option on something more the size of a motorway exit junction.
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