Near-miss. My fault I think.
Discussion
Jon1967x said:
People commenting on there being 2 exits left.. Without local knowledge you don't know this so you shouldn't rely on it as others without that knowledge will make authodox judgements.
The junction below, travelling west on the a5 is a horror story of bad lane discipline. There are lane markings but many cars go down the right between the 2 mini roundabouts to turn left.
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Any thoughts on the right lane to be in as you approach the first junction to exit the other side on the a5?
The link pulls up the Newcastle junction....The junction below, travelling west on the a5 is a horror story of bad lane discipline. There are lane markings but many cars go down the right between the 2 mini roundabouts to turn left.
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.990172,-1.655502&...
Any thoughts on the right lane to be in as you approach the first junction to exit the other side on the a5?
SK425 said:
Vipers said:
No point discussing overtaking on a single carriageway.
Why not? It can go as horribly wrong - probably more horribly - than overtaking on a roundabout.Vipers said:
And all I can say is read up on roundabout procedure, and be carefull out there, you may be heading for disaster.
I know what the HC says (and someone's already posted it).About the approach to roundabouts, good that you know what the HC says, pity you and others do not apply it.
As you approach in the outside lane to turn left, the car in lane 1, who may be going straight over does not to indicate, and certainly doesn't expect a car on his outside to suddenly turn left, yes I know your carefull, but why chance it, I think if a collision did occurr, you would carry most if not all the blame.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6497919,-1.83264...
Try this one.. should be A5 junction with the A5148 near the M6 toll
Try this one.. should be A5 junction with the A5148 near the M6 toll
Jon1967x said:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6497919,-1.83264...
Try this one.. should be A5 junction with the A5148 near the M6 toll
Those are mini roundabouts, bloody ell, have we got the right link!Try this one.. should be A5 junction with the A5148 near the M6 toll
Assuming it is, on approach to the first roundabout, I think either lane would be correct.
On approach no indicator, as soon as you pass first exit on left, indicate left for next exit.
Edited by Vipers on Friday 28th March 09:29
Jon1967x said:
The junction below, travelling west on the a5 is a horror story of bad lane discipline. There are lane markings but many cars go down the right between the 2 mini roundabouts to turn left.
Any thoughts on the right lane to be in as you approach the first junction to exit the other side on the a5?
The first roundabout, you can use either lane with the left lane giving the option of turning left onto the A5127Any thoughts on the right lane to be in as you approach the first junction to exit the other side on the a5?
Once you're onto the approach to the second roundabout, it's only the left lane that can turn left onto the A5. The right lane is clearly marked for the A5127(N) and the A5148.
I'd imagine that "local knowledge" would tell you it's ok to turn left from the right lane - totally incorrect but as the left lane is marked dedicated left turn for the A5(W), I'd imagine plenty of locals force their way over and squeeze into the overtaking lane.
SMB said:
Bottom line from me to put aside local knowledge debate, if it's signed on either the road or post as a valid lane then it's ok, if it's not signed then no. You may consider yourself safe, but the other party will be unaware of your intended action. Be aware also that if the lanes are marked on the road, there is a fair chance the other drivers won't have even seen them (due to cars in front, worn markings, or more likely they weren't even looking)
The little orange flashy lights are quite a good way of communicating your intention to those around you . As Vipers has pointed out, you would be putting yourself in the same position as someone who had joined from further round to your right and taken the inside lane on the roundabout. Someone who had done that would be able to negotiate safe exit without troubling people to their left so there's no reason you shouldn't be able to too.SMB said:
Given the size of the roundabout in this case , even braking and dropping back might cause an accident behind, I could see that only being an option on something more the size of a motorway exit junction.
Sorry - I probably wasn't clear. I was talking about dropping back in behind as the bail out option when overtaking on a single carriageway road, as an analogy for continuing around the roundabout as the bail out option in the OP's case. Keeping your bail out option in mind when overtaking and being prepared to use it is a good thing. Having to use it probably indicates that your planning wasn't as good as it could have been and that perhaps you shouldn't have been overtaking.Vipers said:
No point in discussing your first paragraph re single carriageway because I agree what you do is correct.
OK, so you're not averse in principle to the idea of overtaking?Vipers said:
About the approach to roundabouts, good that you know what the HC says, pity you and others do not apply it.
How does the HC guidance help with overtaking? Do you interpret rule 186 as implying a prohibition on overtaking on roundabouts? I don't see that rule 186 has anything to do with how to overtake on roundabouts, and it certainly doesn't say you mustn't do it.Vipers said:
As you approach in the outside lane to turn left, the car in lane 1, who may be going straight over does not to indicate, and certainly doesn't expect a car on his outside to suddenly turn left, yes I know your carefull, but why chance it, I think if a collision did occurr, you would carry most if not all the blame.
You could say the same about any overtake anywhere. Why chance an overtake on a single carriageway road? The driver I overtake may well not be expecting it, and if a collision occurred I imagine I would not be covered in glory. And anyway, don't you think it's a good idea to leave chance out of it when it comes to overtaking? Have you got the impression we're talking about taking a punt as you drive onto the roundabout and seeing whether you get away with it?If I were to take the view that I'd better not do anything that would land me in trouble if it went wrong, I'd very rapidly conclude that I'd better not drive a car ever again.
SK425 said:
You could say the same about any overtake anywhere. Why chance an overtake on a single carriageway road? The driver I overtake may well not be expecting it, and if a collision occurred I imagine I would not be covered in glory. And anyway, don't you think it's a good idea to leave chance out of it when it comes to overtaking? Have you got the impression we're talking about taking a punt as you drive onto the roundabout and seeing whether you get away with it?
If I were to take the view that I'd better not do anything that would land me in trouble if it went wrong, I'd very rapidly conclude that I'd better not drive a car ever again.
For the last time, overtaking on a single carriageway is in accordance with the HC, entering a roundabout in lane two with the intent of exiting at the first exit is not. Can't be clearer than that. Obviously you disagree, no problem that's your look out.If I were to take the view that I'd better not do anything that would land me in trouble if it went wrong, I'd very rapidly conclude that I'd better not drive a car ever again.
Your right on one thing, the HC does not mention overtaking on a roundabout, what this has to do with this I don't know.
Edited by Vipers on Friday 28th March 11:33
Vipers said:
For the last time, overtaking on a single carriageway is in accordance with the HC, entering a roundabout in lane two with the intent of exiting at the first exit is not. Can't be clearer than that. Obviously you disagree, no problem that's your look out.
I don't disagree, I just don't see the relevance. Bearing in mind the purpose of the HC guidance (which in this case, I do not believe is to prohibit overtaking on roundabouts) I'm not averse to making informed, considered decisions to do something that I know happens to be contrary to HC guidance and taking responsibility for my actions. If we were't allowed to do that in this case then rule 186 would be peppered with "MUST NOT".The driving environment is quite heavily regulated enough without us inventing even more rules for ourselves that don't really exist
.SK425 said:
SMB said:
Bottom line from me to put aside local knowledge debate, if it's signed on either the road or post as a valid lane then it's ok, if it's not signed then no. You may consider yourself safe, but the other party will be unaware of your intended action. Be aware also that if the lanes are marked on the road, there is a fair chance the other drivers won't have even seen them (due to cars in front, worn markings, or more likely they weren't even looking)
The little orange flashy lights are quite a good way of communicating your intention to those around you . As Vipers has pointed out, you would be putting yourself in the same position as someone who had joined from further round to your right and taken the inside lane on the roundabout. Someone who had done that would be able to negotiate safe exit without troubling people to their left so there's no reason you shouldn't be able to too.SMB said:
Given the size of the roundabout in this case , even braking and dropping back might cause an accident behind, I could see that only being an option on something more the size of a motorway exit junction.
Sorry - I probably wasn't clear. I was talking about dropping back in behind as the bail out option when overtaking on a single carriageway road, as an analogy for continuing around the roundabout as the bail out option in the OP's case. Keeping your bail out option in mind when overtaking and being prepared to use it is a good thing. Having to use it probably indicates that your planning wasn't as good as it could have been and that perhaps you shouldn't have been overtaking.As a parting gift I suggest you think about the following
Indicators are for showing your intentions, having them on does not give you any right of way. Although I see many people on the road that think it does!
Those already on a roundabout from a previous junction have right of way, you cannot compare that the someone turning left from a right hand lane.
Sophiefatale said:
The first roundabout, you can use either lane with the left lane giving the option of turning left onto the A5127
Once you're onto the approach to the second roundabout, it's only the left lane that can turn left onto the A5. The right lane is clearly marked for the A5127(N) and the A5148.
I'd imagine that "local knowledge" would tell you it's ok to turn left from the right lane - totally incorrect but as the left lane is marked dedicated left turn for the A5(W), I'd imagine plenty of locals force their way over and squeeze into the overtaking lane.
In practice people do use both lanes at the first roundabout but then it gives all sorts of issues on the short bit of road between the 2 which causes cars to stay in the wrong/right lane at the second. And of course cars in the left lane at the second roundabout often want to go into lane 2.Once you're onto the approach to the second roundabout, it's only the left lane that can turn left onto the A5. The right lane is clearly marked for the A5127(N) and the A5148.
I'd imagine that "local knowledge" would tell you it's ok to turn left from the right lane - totally incorrect but as the left lane is marked dedicated left turn for the A5(W), I'd imagine plenty of locals force their way over and squeeze into the overtaking lane.
The road markings do make it clear what lane you should be in, but its often carnage. And now the police often park up watching it all unfold. They've just started work on the second roundabout to sort it out but the "local knowledge" people all pile down the right and then have nowhere to go. There's another example of the same type of thing nearer Cannock, also crossing the M6Toll - I had an off duty copper flash his warrant car at me which resulted in a little chat and in fairness having debated it, I let him believe he was brian clough and agreed he was right, but I still don't think he was.
Again A5 heading west, I was in the left lane, which splits (with road markings) allowing a straight ahead. The Walsall road from the bottom has its only lane with no giveway
I stayed in lane before turning left. He was to my right at the first and wanted to turn left at the second. As a single roundabout with only 2 exits I can understand the right hand lane to take the second exit but that results in being in the wrong lane for the next junction. A lot of cars drift across into the lane which doesn't have a giveway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6716995,-2.01807...
SMB said:
Well I like vipers have had enough of this debate, you obviously have your own ideas of safe driving but please steer clear of me.
The idea is to steer clear of everybody. If there's someone you weren't clear of, you didn't do it right!SMB said:
As a parting gift I suggest you think about the following
Indicators are for showing your intentions, having them on does not give you any right of way.
Thanks Indicators are for showing your intentions, having them on does not give you any right of way.
. You've obviously completely misunderstood what I'm describing if you feel the need to mention that. I suspect the manoeuvre I'm talking about and the manoeuvre you're visualising when you think about what I'm saying are very different things. I was responding to someone's suggestion that drivers around you would be unaware of your intentions. Can you remember whose suggestion that was? SMB said:
Those already on a roundabout from a previous junction have right of way, you cannot compare that the someone turning left from a right hand lane.
Obviously the presence of traffic already on the roundabout is going to have an influence on those joining, but once everybody's on the roundabout, from the inside lane the task of exiting safely is identical however you got there. Certainly, if you'd joined from a previous junction that would not confer on you any more right to exit unsafely than I have with my manoeuvre.Edited by SK425 on Saturday 29th March 21:19
9.3 said:
Agree SMB. This is a roundabout I have used for probably 25 years coming out of Storrington.
To approach in the right hand lane to turn first exit left on this particular roundabout is not only stupidity of the first order, but verging on dangerous driving.
Unbelievable.
Seconded.To approach in the right hand lane to turn first exit left on this particular roundabout is not only stupidity of the first order, but verging on dangerous driving.
Unbelievable.
Ilovetwiglets said:
You ended up using a trick from my old van driving days to avoid traffic, a full circuit of the roundabout! Another one is getting off and on again at a motorway junction, are there any laws against either of them?
There is no law against selfishness. Those techniques will irritate some drivers but they are not inherently dangerous. Turning left from a right hand lane in the absence of road markings to support it, most definitely is.9mm said:
There is no law against selfishness. Those techniques will irritate some drivers but they are not inherently dangerous. Turning left from a right hand lane in the absence of road markings to support it, most definitely is.
Most definitely. 
You are, of course, familiar with all possible traffic conditions on every single roundabout in the country. You're not making a sweeping, groundless generalisation at all are you
SK425 said:
9mm said:
There is no law against selfishness. Those techniques will irritate some drivers but they are not inherently dangerous. Turning left from a right hand lane in the absence of road markings to support it, most definitely is.
Most definitely. You are, of course, familiar with all possible traffic conditions on every single roundabout in the country. You're not making a sweeping, groundless generalisation at all are you
9mm said:
Which bit do you think is a sweeping generalisation?
"Turning left from a right hand lane in the absence of road markings to support it, most definitely is [inherently dangerous]"I suppose in one sense it is inherently dangerous, in the same way that driving a car is inherently dangerous and walking down the stairs is inherently dangerous, but I didn't think that was the sense you were getting at.
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