Near-miss. My fault I think.
Discussion
Greetings. Had a very close shave the other day that needed quite a sharp reaction on my part. Happened here: https://goo.gl/maps/HKMAU
Was headed east, i.e. leaving the A283 to join the A24 north. Happened like this:
1. A283 splits into two lanes. Line of very slow traffic in the left hand lane, right hand lane clear.
2. Good-oh, move to the right hand lane, overtake traffic, still planning on turning left at the roundabout (1st exit), joining the A24 in the outside lane.
3. Onto the roundabout, left-hand indication on my part.
4. Just as I'm about to turn left onto the A24 my windscreen is suddenly full of someone's hatchback. The hatchback approached the roundabout in the left hand lane and planned on going straight over, putting us on the same bit of road at the same time. He actually undertook me on the roundabout, although in retrospect this was a good thing as if he'd been in my blindspot I think the chances of hitting him would have been higher.
5. Avoiding action from me, sheepish full lap of the roundabout, on to the A24. No harm done.
There are no direction lines on the road when you approach the roundabout, and my assumption (I know, I know) was that traffic using the left hand lane would be turning left, and traffic doing anything else would use the right hand lane to either go straight over or turn right. Obviously at least in this case I was wrong. I was very pleased not to have hit anything as for a moment it looked exceedingly likely.
I think the near miss was my fault, which is probably for the best as it's a handy cautionary tale the next time I fancy playing russian roulette with lanes on a roundabout. Interested to know what others make of it, advanced-driving stylee, though, how you would have approached it etc etc.
Was headed east, i.e. leaving the A283 to join the A24 north. Happened like this:
1. A283 splits into two lanes. Line of very slow traffic in the left hand lane, right hand lane clear.
2. Good-oh, move to the right hand lane, overtake traffic, still planning on turning left at the roundabout (1st exit), joining the A24 in the outside lane.
3. Onto the roundabout, left-hand indication on my part.
4. Just as I'm about to turn left onto the A24 my windscreen is suddenly full of someone's hatchback. The hatchback approached the roundabout in the left hand lane and planned on going straight over, putting us on the same bit of road at the same time. He actually undertook me on the roundabout, although in retrospect this was a good thing as if he'd been in my blindspot I think the chances of hitting him would have been higher.
5. Avoiding action from me, sheepish full lap of the roundabout, on to the A24. No harm done.
There are no direction lines on the road when you approach the roundabout, and my assumption (I know, I know) was that traffic using the left hand lane would be turning left, and traffic doing anything else would use the right hand lane to either go straight over or turn right. Obviously at least in this case I was wrong. I was very pleased not to have hit anything as for a moment it looked exceedingly likely.
I think the near miss was my fault, which is probably for the best as it's a handy cautionary tale the next time I fancy playing russian roulette with lanes on a roundabout. Interested to know what others make of it, advanced-driving stylee, though, how you would have approached it etc etc.
This happens all the time on all multi-lane roundabouts.
I don't think you were particularly to blame. I think the experience will be beneficial in that it will have the effect of making you more aware of what's going on around your vehicle in this type of situation. If you use the "lane of least resistance", and there is no reason why you shouldn't, you must raise your awareness and anticipation throughout.
You just have to be aware that this happens [edited to clarify: I don't mean the near-miss, I mean vehicles undertaking/going straight ahead from this position], never assume anything and always be on the lookout for a vehicle coming from the nearside position. In addition lookout for drivers coming from the off-side position who joined the roundabout earlier than you and are heading for the same exit as you. In other words they'll be coming from all directions without warning.
We have an equally complex multi-lane motorway junction roundabout near to where I live [just like most motorway junction roundabouts]. I tell my associates that whenever they drive through this roundabout with its complex, unfathomable lane markings they must always remember that... whichever lane they're in, it will be the wrong lane AND everyone else on the roundabout will also be in the wrong lane. If you approach these multi-lane roundabouts with this mindset and heightened observation and anticipation, you shouldn't have another experience like the one you describe.
I don't think you were particularly to blame. I think the experience will be beneficial in that it will have the effect of making you more aware of what's going on around your vehicle in this type of situation. If you use the "lane of least resistance", and there is no reason why you shouldn't, you must raise your awareness and anticipation throughout.
You just have to be aware that this happens [edited to clarify: I don't mean the near-miss, I mean vehicles undertaking/going straight ahead from this position], never assume anything and always be on the lookout for a vehicle coming from the nearside position. In addition lookout for drivers coming from the off-side position who joined the roundabout earlier than you and are heading for the same exit as you. In other words they'll be coming from all directions without warning.
We have an equally complex multi-lane motorway junction roundabout near to where I live [just like most motorway junction roundabouts]. I tell my associates that whenever they drive through this roundabout with its complex, unfathomable lane markings they must always remember that... whichever lane they're in, it will be the wrong lane AND everyone else on the roundabout will also be in the wrong lane. If you approach these multi-lane roundabouts with this mindset and heightened observation and anticipation, you shouldn't have another experience like the one you describe.
Edited by johnao on Tuesday 25th March 11:08
ismellburning said:
Greetings. Had a very close shave the other day that needed quite a sharp reaction on my part. Happened here: https://goo.gl/maps/HKMAU
Was headed east, i.e. leaving the A283 to join the A24 north. Happened like this:
1. A283 splits into two lanes. Line of very slow traffic in the left hand lane, right hand lane clear.
2. Good-oh, move to the right hand lane, overtake traffic, still planning on turning left at the roundabout (1st exit), joining the A24 in the outside lane.
3. Onto the roundabout, left-hand indication on my part.
4. Just as I'm about to turn left onto the A24 my windscreen is suddenly full of someone's hatchback. The hatchback approached the roundabout in the left hand lane and planned on going straight over, putting us on the same bit of road at the same time. He actually undertook me on the roundabout, although in retrospect this was a good thing as if he'd been in my blindspot I think the chances of hitting him would have been higher.
5. Avoiding action from me, sheepish full lap of the roundabout, on to the A24. No harm done.
There are no direction lines on the road when you approach the roundabout, and my assumption (I know, I know) was that traffic using the left hand lane would be turning left, and traffic doing anything else would use the right hand lane to either go straight over or turn right. Obviously at least in this case I was wrong. I was very pleased not to have hit anything as for a moment it looked exceedingly likely.
I think the near miss was my fault, which is probably for the best as it's a handy cautionary tale the next time I fancy playing russian roulette with lanes on a roundabout. Interested to know what others make of it, advanced-driving stylee, though, how you would have approached it etc etc.
Fault? Well, if you'd collided, the finger of "you could have done something different to avoid the incident" could probably have been pointed at both of you. But you didn't collide, so not beating yourself up too much about it and trying to figure out what you could have done differently is exactly the right thing to be doing.Was headed east, i.e. leaving the A283 to join the A24 north. Happened like this:
1. A283 splits into two lanes. Line of very slow traffic in the left hand lane, right hand lane clear.
2. Good-oh, move to the right hand lane, overtake traffic, still planning on turning left at the roundabout (1st exit), joining the A24 in the outside lane.
3. Onto the roundabout, left-hand indication on my part.
4. Just as I'm about to turn left onto the A24 my windscreen is suddenly full of someone's hatchback. The hatchback approached the roundabout in the left hand lane and planned on going straight over, putting us on the same bit of road at the same time. He actually undertook me on the roundabout, although in retrospect this was a good thing as if he'd been in my blindspot I think the chances of hitting him would have been higher.
5. Avoiding action from me, sheepish full lap of the roundabout, on to the A24. No harm done.
There are no direction lines on the road when you approach the roundabout, and my assumption (I know, I know) was that traffic using the left hand lane would be turning left, and traffic doing anything else would use the right hand lane to either go straight over or turn right. Obviously at least in this case I was wrong. I was very pleased not to have hit anything as for a moment it looked exceedingly likely.
I think the near miss was my fault, which is probably for the best as it's a handy cautionary tale the next time I fancy playing russian roulette with lanes on a roundabout. Interested to know what others make of it, advanced-driving stylee, though, how you would have approached it etc etc.
I think you've already identified the invalid assumption you made. The comfortable, easy answer is to say you should have used the left lane instead, but that's a bit of a cop-out in terms of advice. In the absence of signs and road markings to indicate otherwise, I don't think I'd be averse to considering using the lanes as you did, but I'd be cautious of other drivers around me. People use the left hand lane on a roundabout for completely inappropriate things sometimes, like going all the way round to a right turn third exit, so it's definitely not valid to assume people won't be using the left lane to do something fairly normal like going straight on.
The other factor is local knowledge - what other drivers generally do and generally expect others to do. How well do you know this roundabout? Do many other drivers use the right hand lane for the first exit as you did? Do drivers taking the second exit usually use the left lane or the right lane?
Don't go round with anyone else, always assume that someone who has the opportunity to cut across you like this is going to, and try to be alongside a gap not another vehicle. If you're going to pass someone on the roundabout, get on with it so you can be alongside a gap again.
Of course the car in the left hand lane would have assumed a car in the right hand lane to be going straight on or turning right! If you are going to turn left from your position, you need to generate some space. It would normally be inadvisable to turn left from the right with a vehicle on your left, assuming that they are turning also. Either drop behind them before the turn, or accelerate in front and be moving away from them as you turn. The idea is to avoid the situation in which both vehicles are possibly heading for the same bit of road.
You ended up doing what you should have done in the first place. Lets be honest you took the right hand lane because it was practically empty. You knew you would be out of position for a left turn and just hoped to find space.
If you'd have planned to go all the way round and then take the exit you would have been less likely to have been involved in such a close encounter.
Going all the way round to facilitate a left hand turn is not illegal , impatient maybe and discourteous to the others who have patiently queued in the left hand lane , but ultimately something most of us have done before when we really need to be somewhere
If you'd have planned to go all the way round and then take the exit you would have been less likely to have been involved in such a close encounter.
Going all the way round to facilitate a left hand turn is not illegal , impatient maybe and discourteous to the others who have patiently queued in the left hand lane , but ultimately something most of us have done before when we really need to be somewhere
R60EST said:
You knew you would be out of position for a left turn and just hoped to find space.
The OP's exit has two lanes and he said he was intending to exit into lane 2, so he wasn't out of position as such. But as everyone's said (and the OP realised), caution is required with traffic to his left.SK425 said:
The OP's exit has two lanes and he said he was intending to exit into lane 2, so he wasn't out of position as such...
OK, I'll bite. I can't see any relevant signs or road markings...Extract from the Highway Code:
186
Signals and position
When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
Orillion said:
OK, I'll bite. I can't see any relevant signs or road markings...
Extract from the Highway Code:
186
Signals and position
When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
I'm with this one , I know that junction and there is no logic that it's right to turn left from the right hand lane. You might just have justified it if you were going straight over on to the rest of the 283 but not turning left.Extract from the Highway Code:
186
Signals and position
When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
9.3 said:
Agree SMB. This is a roundabout I have used for probably 25 years coming out of Storrington.
To approach in the right hand lane to turn first exit left on this particular roundabout is not only stupidity of the first order, but verging on dangerous driving.
Unbelievable.
How can this manoeuvre in itself be considered dangerous driving which, under section 2 of the RTA 1988, is defined thus: Dangerous Driving is committed when a persons standard of driving falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous [Both parts of the definition must be satisfied for the driving to be "dangerous" within the meaning of the Act - Section 2A(1) of the RTA 1988.]To approach in the right hand lane to turn first exit left on this particular roundabout is not only stupidity of the first order, but verging on dangerous driving.
Unbelievable.
The facts of the situation are that there are two entry lanes to the roundabout; there is no directional lane signage; there is a significant distance between entry and first exit in which a driver in lane 2 (the outside lane) is able to safely negotiate space for himself before exit; there are 2 exit lanes.
I would suggest there is no intrinsic danger in following the line that the OP took. There is danger only if the manoeuvre is carried out dangerously and then an offence is committed.
I think you are suggesting that the manoeuvre in question cannot be carried out without danger. I would disagree. If there happens to be insufficient space to make a safe exit there is always the get-out that the OP took, which is to go round again.
Orillion said:
SK425 said:
The OP's exit has two lanes and he said he was intending to exit into lane 2, so he wasn't out of position as such...
OK, I'll bite. I can't see any relevant signs or road markings...Extract from the Highway Code:
Its all been said really, personally I wouldnt have approached in the right hand lane, but the vehicle who was coming up in the inside lane seeing you indicating left, should have anticipated you might actually be turning left, I would have done anyway.
At the end of the day, a good result, and guess you and us readers have learnt something as well.
At the end of the day, a good result, and guess you and us readers have learnt something as well.
Vipers said:
personally I wouldnt have approached in the right hand lane
That's my conclusion from all this.Vipers said:
At the end of the day, a good result, and guess you and us readers have learnt something as well.
That's what I like about this PH malarkey, full of useful input that might just help keep my car straight and my insurance premiums manageable for a fraction of a second longer Ilovetwiglets said:
You ended up using a trick from my old van driving days to avoid traffic, a full circuit of the roundabout! Another one is getting off and on again at a motorway junction, are there any laws against either of them?
I plus others do the full circuit every day when approaching the Bridge of Dee from the south on the A90 and wanting to turn left onto the single lane bridge. (piss poor planning, say no more - total bottleneck).Seems to work fine, and I can't see anything which say you can't do it.
9.3 said:
Agree SMB. This is a roundabout I have used for probably 25 years coming out of Storrington.
To approach in the right hand lane to turn first exit left on this particular roundabout is not only stupidity of the first order, but verging on dangerous driving.
Unbelievable.
Bit harsh mate, but I took a look at this view:To approach in the right hand lane to turn first exit left on this particular roundabout is not only stupidity of the first order, but verging on dangerous driving.
Unbelievable.
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=50.910011,-0.410839...
So based on the sign I would stick with the left lane & expect traffic in the left lane to be taking the second.
Should you ever travel up north avoid this roundabout, https://www.google.com/maps?q=Keighley,+United+Kin...
lots of drivers use the right lane from the A629 to take the first exit onto Hardings Rd; and this one's clearly marked with bloody great hatchings, arrows & has only one lane on exit! But that's Yorkshire folk for you
johnao said:
How can this manoeuvre in itself be considered dangerous driving which, under section 2 of the RTA 1988, is defined thus: Dangerous Driving is committed when a persons standard of driving falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous [Both parts of the definition must be satisfied for the driving to be "dangerous" within the meaning of the Act - Section 2A(1) of the RTA 1988.]
The facts of the situation are that there are two entry lanes to the roundabout; there is no directional lane signage; there is a significant distance between entry and first exit in which a driver in lane 2 (the outside lane) is able to safely negotiate space for himself before exit; there are 2 exit lanes.
I would suggest there is no intrinsic danger in following the line that the OP took. There is danger only if the manoeuvre is carried out dangerously and then an offence is committed.
I think you are suggesting that the manoeuvre in question cannot be carried out without danger. I would disagree. If there happens to be insufficient space to make a safe exit there is always the get-out that the OP took, which is to go round again.
The facts of the situation are that there are two entry lanes to the roundabout; there is no directional lane signage; there is a significant distance between entry and first exit in which a driver in lane 2 (the outside lane) is able to safely negotiate space for himself before exit; there are 2 exit lanes.
I would suggest there is no intrinsic danger in following the line that the OP took. There is danger only if the manoeuvre is carried out dangerously and then an offence is committed.
I think you are suggesting that the manoeuvre in question cannot be carried out without danger. I would disagree. If there happens to be insufficient space to make a safe exit there is always the get-out that the OP took, which is to go round again.
I have to disagree I'm afraid. 50% plus of those in the left lane will go straight over here as is a main route bypassing Worthing. In my book there is never a case to turn first left from the right hand lane on such a junction. There are rules for a reason. If you make your own up. It's an accident waiting to happen.
I see this happening all the time on a local roundabout of the same layout, to the point where I have actually made contact with someone. I was the person going straight ahead and the other driver tried to accelerate past me to exit, didn't work and rammed me off the road.
The left lane is for straight ahead and turning left, with a choice of which lane to use.
The right lane is for turning right.
The only argument is if someone on the right goes straight ahead, when i'd expect filtering to occur.
The left lane is for straight ahead and turning left, with a choice of which lane to use.
The right lane is for turning right.
The only argument is if someone on the right goes straight ahead, when i'd expect filtering to occur.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff