Braking into corners

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Discussion

GarageQueen

Original Poster:

2,295 posts

245 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
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For some reason I can't seem to get out of the habit of braking late into a corner - I'm not talking about really late trail braking here, more steady state braking with the pedal covered. I seem to get mid corner and realise my foot is still on the brake pedal.

Its frustrating because it upsets the drive and feels like the car is getting away from me all the time.

If I concentrate and use the limit point analysis technique I can seem to get all my braking done in a straight line and then pick up the throttle nicely for the turn, but its not my 'default' position.


Any ideas on this? Anyone else experienced similar?



waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
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So you are either braking later than you would like to, or more gently. If you are braking later, notice how soon you are accelerating on the exit from the previous bend, how soon you are ceasing to increase speed, and then bring forward the point at which you start to brake. Give yourself permission to brake too much or too early for a while, until you feel more than ready to accelerate before you start to steer.

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
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Try a more systematic approach to cornering - specifically, try avoiding overlapping your braking and gear changing.

If a corner requires a change down through the box, try to finish braking with enough time to select the appropriate gear and release the clutch before turning the wheel. That way, the only physical action required to negotiate the corner is turning the wheel and pressing the accelerator.

If you want to try a little exercise to practice better cornering technique, find a section of road with a number of bends on it. Don't accelerate too much between the bends, but instead try to get your speed right for the bends using acceleration sense only i.e. by lifting off and not braking. It'll help at first by being in a gear lower than you would normally approach the bends. This exercise will get you in to the habit of keeping your foot on the right pedal whilst cornering and you'll also improve your ability to vary the vehicle's speed using the accelerator - your driving will become less "clog and anchor" and the vehicle will feel much better balanced.

The problem you describe is very common and you're halfway to a cure already just by recognising the issue. The vast majority of drivers will drive this way all their lives until someone points it out to them.

GarageQueen

Original Poster:

2,295 posts

245 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
quotequote all
R_U_LOCAL said:
Try a more systematic approach to cornering - specifically, try avoiding overlapping your braking and gear changing.

If a corner requires a change down through the box, try to finish braking with enough time to select the appropriate gear and release the clutch before turning the wheel. That way, the only physical action required to negotiate the corner is turning the wheel and pressing the accelerator.
Tried this tonight, that certainly would eliminate the issue! The only thing I would say is that there is a moment where the car is coasting (i.e clutch is down and your foot is neither on brake or accelerator), am I understanding correctly?

Hadn't noticed how much the braking / gear change process is amalgamated.

Also, how would this work on a semi-automatic box?



7db

6,058 posts

229 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
quotequote all
GarageQueen said:
The only thing I would say is that there is a moment where the car is coasting (i.e clutch is down and your foot is neither on brake or accelerator), am I understanding correctly?
Yes in classical separation there is a point where the clutch is down and your other foot isn't on the brake or accelerator. "Coasting" -- as a term that is not classically recommended by some ADs -- is usually refers to a longer time in that state than just enough for a gear change.

Jon1967x

7,175 posts

123 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
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GarageQueen said:
Tried this tonight, that certainly would eliminate the issue! The only thing I would say is that there is a moment where the car is coasting (i.e clutch is down and your foot is neither on brake or accelerator), am I understanding correctly?

Hadn't noticed how much the braking / gear change process is amalgamated.

Also, how would this work on a semi-automatic box?
I don't think you should ever coast with the clutch in. My understanding is that changing gear can cause a degree of instability. Getting all this done and the clutch out before cornering means any problems happened in a straight line and before the bend. The accelerator can then balance the car and can almost give the feeling of pushing the car around a bend (especially rear wheel cars). I find a little accelerator throughout a corner prevents engine braking which is maybe what you're addressing with clutch in and coasting, and can steadily be increased as the corner unwinds.





R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
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GarageQueen said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Try a more systematic approach to cornering - specifically, try avoiding overlapping your braking and gear changing.

If a corner requires a change down through the box, try to finish braking with enough time to select the appropriate gear and release the clutch before turning the wheel. That way, the only physical action required to negotiate the corner is turning the wheel and pressing the accelerator.
Tried this tonight, that certainly would eliminate the issue! The only thing I would say is that there is a moment where the car is coasting (i.e clutch is down and your foot is neither on brake or accelerator), am I understanding correctly?

Hadn't noticed how much the braking / gear change process is amalgamated.

Also, how would this work on a semi-automatic box?
As above, this isn't coasting in the normal sense, as the clutch is only dipped as part of the gearchange process.

With any change in technique, you should start slowly, with the car travelling at a fairly slow pace and just practice the techniques. Separation of braking and changing gear is difficult for an otherwise experienced driver to learn at first because it is a move away from the techniques they have developed over the years and requires a determined effort and plenty of practice.

Once you feel you're getting better at separating, then you can increase your speed gradually, and the separation, although still present, will become less noticable as you blend one phase in to the next.

For semi-automatic gearboxes, it's pretty much the same. Brake to the appropriate speed, but make sure you come off the brakes in enough time to select a gear before turning. Most semi-autos allow block changing by pulling the paddle twice (or three or four times) quickly, so the process should be pretty much identical to a manual, but just with a bit less faff.

I did do a piece on cornering during the war [/Uncle Albert]- I'll see if I can dig a link out of the archives.

A quick note on acceleration sense - this is one of the skills which can really mark out a very good advanced driver. I'll be writing a piece on it in the next week or so. Keep an eye on the forum.

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
quotequote all
Reg said:
I did do a piece on cornering during the war [/Uncle Albert]- I'll see if I can dig a link out of the archives.
It seems I wrote 3 separate threads, clearly with the intention of continuing probably to a fourth which would have covered "negotiating" the corner. Probably one for the list.

Anyway, here's "Cornering basics 1 - assessing the bend (limit point)...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

"Cornering basics 2 - assessing a bend without the limit point"...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

And "Cornering basics 3 - linking corners"...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

And as a bonus, a cornering demonstration video. Very poor quality I'm afraid, but it does demonstrate some of the techniques I wrote about, and it was in a semi-auto (BMW SMG1)...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...


VinceFox

20,566 posts

171 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
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What car, OP?

SVS

3,824 posts

270 months

Monday 5th May 2014
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R_U_LOCAL, I'm enjoying your writing on here: lots of sage advice. Please keep 'em coming!

S. Gonzales Esq.

2,556 posts

211 months

Monday 5th May 2014
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GarageQueen said:
If I concentrate and use the limit point analysis technique I can seem to get all my braking done in a straight line and then pick up the throttle nicely for the turn...
As is so often the case, the person asking the question already knows the answer...

I'd imagine that like many driving techniques, a period of concentrating on doing it properly might establish the habit enough for it to become your unconscious default behaviour.

After that, it should be easier to get it right consistently. Not necessarily easy, but hopefully easier.

Raize

1,476 posts

178 months

Monday 5th May 2014
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The funniest thing to do is wait until a rear-wheel-drive classic sports car is following you then slam on the brakes mid-corner and watch it spin out when it tries to do the same.

VinceFox

20,566 posts

171 months

Monday 5th May 2014
quotequote all
Raize said:
The funniest thing to do is wait until a rear-wheel-drive classic sports car is following you then slam on the brakes mid-corner and watch it spin out when it tries to do the same.
I've just read that three times and i'm still not sure where to start with it.

Raize

1,476 posts

178 months

Monday 5th May 2014
quotequote all
VinceFox said:
Raize said:
The funniest thing to do is wait until a rear-wheel-drive classic sports car is following you then slam on the brakes mid-corner and watch it spin out when it tries to do the same.
I've just read that three times and i'm still not sure where to start with it.
It's basically a moan.

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Friday 9th May 2014
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R_U_LOCAL said:
If you want to try a little exercise to practice better cornering technique, find a section of road with a number of bends on it. Don't accelerate too much between the bends, but instead try to get your speed right for the bends using acceleration sense only i.e. by lifting off and not braking. It'll help at first by being in a gear lower than you would normally approach the bends. This exercise will get you in to the habit of keeping your foot on the right pedal whilst cornering and you'll also improve your ability to vary the vehicle's speed using the accelerator - your driving will become less "clog and anchor" and the vehicle will feel much better balanced.
Good advice. I was doing that down the Wye valley heading towards Monmouth once, just rolling on and off the throttle without any braking. Progress was made but it was smooth and flowing.

Criticism I've had in the lanes is getting to a corner, braking, changing down and steering all at once. Selecting a lower gear before, even if it feels like the engine is revving too much can be just driving on the throttle without having to think about braking.

Jon1967x

7,175 posts

123 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
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carinaman said:
Selecting a lower gear before, even if it feels like the engine is revving too much can be just driving on the throttle without having to think about braking.
I'm interested if this is correct driving (I don't know for sure although when I learnt to drive years ago I was told it was wrong but then a lot of that advice has been subsequently ignored!). My concerns are a, you can only do this when you have sufficient rev range and b, the higher the revs the greater the engine braking (I believe) so you're in effect using that instead of the brakes plus unless you are good at matching revs when changing gear your clutch is taking some punishment.

I think it's worth reading the acceleration sense thread to get a more complete view of this.

I don't want to sound like a troll, but most of us around here are open to comment so hope it's taken in the right spirit and no more than a discussion point

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
carinaman said:
Good advice. I was doing that down the Wye valley heading towards Monmouth once, just rolling on and off the throttle without any braking. Progress was made but it was smooth and flowing.

Criticism I've had in the lanes is getting to a corner, braking, changing down and steering all at once. Selecting a lower gear before, even if it feels like the engine is revving too much can be just driving on the throttle without having to think about braking.
Jon1967x said:
I'm interested if this is correct driving (I don't know for sure although when I learnt to drive years ago I was told it was wrong but then a lot of that advice has been subsequently ignored!). My concerns are a, you can only do this when you have sufficient rev range and b, the higher the revs the greater the engine braking (I believe) so you're in effect using that instead of the brakes plus unless you are good at matching revs when changing gear your clutch is taking some punishment.

I think it's worth reading the acceleration sense thread to get a more complete view of this.

I don't want to sound like a troll, but most of us around here are open to comment so hope it's taken in the right spirit and no more than a discussion point
Lets start off by avoiding terms like "right" and "wrong". There are a whole range of different techniques available and all of them have their own benefits and downsides.

My preference is to get the speed right for the corner before taking the appropriate gear for the corner. Try to bring your braking "back" from the corner a little, so that you've then enough time to select a gear before turning in to the corner.

I believe it's better to select the correct gear for the speed, rather than taking the gear first and then selecting the correct speed for the gear. Taking the gear first almost feels like you're committed then to that gear, whereas leaving the gear till after the speed is correct means that you are assessing the corner speed on the brakes, and you don't come off the brakes until the speed is more or less correct for the corner. At least then, when you select the gear, you can be fairly sure you're selecting the correct - most flexible - gear for that corner.

Another thing to consider is that you should aim to be accelerating slightly through any corner, to maintain the cars balance. If you've chosen too low a gear too early, you may be in danger of either reaching the rev limiter or requiring a gearchange mid-corner, both of which are likely to unsettle the car, particularly if you're traveling at high speed.

omegac

358 posts

218 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
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R_U_LOCAL said:
Lets start off by avoiding terms like "right" and "wrong". There are a whole range of different techniques available and all of them have their own benefits and downsides.
You're definitely not ex-Met or Hendon trained with that level of open mindedness smile

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
R_U_LOCAL said:
Lets start off by avoiding terms like "right" and "wrong". There are a whole range of different techniques available and all of them have their own benefits and downsides.

My preference is to get the speed right ..............
hehe

R_U_LOCAL

2,676 posts

207 months

Saturday 10th May 2014
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Lets start off by avoiding terms like "right" and "wrong". There are a whole range of different techniques available and all of them have their own benefits and downsides.

My preference is to get the speed right ..............
hehe
Oh yeah. I see what I did there!

Ok. My preference is to get the appropriate speed.

So you can get the corner right...