Motorway driving - part 2 (including high speed)

[WinstonWolf]

BusaMK said:

Liked a lot of it but respectfully really disagree with a couple of points -

1. Advising motorists to glance over their shoulder to check their blindspot while doing 70 mph is a bad idea. Bikers have no trouble with this, but Imagine joe bloggs trying this out and swerving their car partly into the next lane - I bet many are not capable of doing this safely. Perhaps this explains your 'lane swerve phenomena' prior to lane change.
If you accelerate into the overtaking lane a vehicle cannot stay hiding in your blindspot. Mirror, signal, accelerate and change lane would be good practise for the average motorist moving into the outside lane. This also breeds a good habit of accelerating on slip roads to join the motorway, a skill which some motorists unbelievably lack.

2. Irrespective of ability you should always indicate for the person you might not have seen too - It's just not worth changing lanes without doing it, even for someone with 'perfect' awareness - it's good practise and should always be done without fail when moving into a faster lane of traffic.

Not sure I agree, I was a biker first and I wouldn't contemplate a manoeuvre into a blindspot without my lifesaver, whatever the vehicle. As long as you keep a loose grip on the wheel the vehicle will track straight and true. Despite having what I think is very good rear observation I've found a couple of vehicles hiding there over the years

[SK425]

BusaMK said:

Liked a lot of it but respectfully really disagree with a couple of points -

1. Advising motorists to glance over their shoulder to check their blindspot while doing 70 mph is a bad idea. Bikers have no trouble with this, but Imagine joe bloggs trying this out and swerving their car partly into the next lane - I bet many are not capable of doing this safely. Perhaps this explains your 'lane swerve phenomena' prior to lane change.

Why can bikers do it but car drivers not? I've seen it recommended that you don't need to be craning your neck all the way round - just turning your head to the side, but I don't recall seeing a blanket prohibition advised before.

BusaMK said:

If you accelerate into the overtaking lane a vehicle cannot stay hiding in your blindspot. Mirror, signal, accelerate and change lane would be good practise for the average motorist moving into the outside lane. This also breeds a good habit of accelerating on slip roads to join the motorway, a skill which some motorists unbelievably lack.

Interesting that you mention slip roads as I think there a blind spot check is almost always necessary. As you come down the slip road, because your vehicle is not quite parallel with the main carriageway and you are laterally further from it than for a normal lane change, the blind area from which someone can ruin your day is huge, and as you are only just joining the motorway, then unlike when you are long established and just changing lanes, your awareness of what's happening upstream is, give or take, zero.

BusaMK said:

2. Irrespective of ability you should always indicate for the person you might not have seen too - It's just not worth changing lanes without doing it, even for someone with 'perfect' awareness - it's good practise and should always be done without fail when moving into a faster lane of traffic.

I wouldn't normally agree with a policy like that but if you're not going to look for hazards, just boot it and hope, I guess I can see the appeal

[LFAwhoosh]

While the 'life saver' is where the buck stops, Busa's technique is technically sound - you will only have a vehicle hiding in your blind-spot for the duration of checking the mirror if you're traveling at the same speed. So perhaps that is the circumstance where it makes the most sense to turn your head to check - if all lanes are of fairly similar traffic speed, such as average traffic conditions on the M25.

'Booting it' and hoping nothing is there is a crude way to label it - maintain good observation, and use both techniques to your benefit, and then you can't go wrong. Certainly on the autobahn If i know I'm on a 'hot' section I'd be very wary about not building speed before moving into the overtaking lane - checking that the blindspot is important but won't help if there's a 911 turbo on the way at warp 9 even if its 1km away.

Edited by LFAwhoosh on Wednesday 7th May 17:47

[R_U_LOCAL]

BusaMK said:

Liked a lot of it but respectfully really disagree with a couple of points -

Fair enough - fire away.

BusaMK said:

1. Advising motorists to glance over their shoulder to check their blindspot while doing 70 mph is a bad idea.

Really?

BusaMK said:

Bikers have no trouble with this, but Imagine joe bloggs trying this out and swerving their car partly into the next lane - I bet many are not capable of doing this safely.

Really? Are you genuinely of the opinion that most drivers are incapeable of carrying out a shoulder check without drifting over into an adjacent lane? I sometimes teach learners and they become competent at shoulder checks within a couple of days. And are you really suggesting that there is such a vast difference between the skill level of different road users, based solely on the type of vehicle they use?

BusaMK said:

Perhaps this explains your 'lane swerve phenomena' prior to lane change.

It's a fair point, but I don't agree, based on my own observations. It's a very common visual clue that a driver is considering changing lanes, but I've never seen it accompanied by a visible shoulder check.

BusaMK said:

If you accelerate into the overtaking lane a vehicle cannot stay hiding in your blindspot.

Thats a very sweeping statement. They aren't always "hiding" in your blind spot (although I accept that was an example I gave) - they can also be overtaking you at a slow closing speed. It's difficult to describe how a full car can be within feet of you, ye entirely invisible in the mirrors. If I'm teaching a learner I always do a little exercise on a car park where I'll position various articles - up to one of those large industrial wheely-bins, in the drivers blind spot whilst they're parked up. The only way to safely check this "zone of invisibility" is to physically look over your shoulder.

BusaMK said:

Mirror, signal, accelerate and change lane would be good practise for the average motorist moving into the outside lane.

Remember this was a post which covered driving along the motorway - I've already covered joining a motorway in an earlier post. If you go back through my post you'll see that a fundamental piece of advice was to pick a speed and stick with it. your plans should centre around keeping this consistent speed, so if you're planning correctly most of your lane changes and overtakes will not need any acceleration at all. For those that do, the lane change should come first followed by the acceleration. This will ensure that you'll never accelerate within (and thus reduce) your safe following position on the vehicle in front.

BusaMK said:

This also breeds a good habit of accelerating on slip roads to join the motorway, a skill which some motorists unbelievably lack.

I agree with this & I covered it in the first installment.

BusaMK said:

2. Irrespective of ability you should always indicate for the person you might not have seen too - It's just not worth changing lanes without doing it, even for someone with 'perfect' awareness - it's good practise and should always be done without fail when moving into a faster lane of traffic.

I don't agree with you, but if you want to indicate every single time you change lanes, then please carry on. I posted a piece on forgiving yourself years ago, which became a bit of an ongoing argument about signalling. I've no intention of reigniting that argument, but the thread is here if you want a read...


http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=5&a...

Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Wednesday 7th May 18:05

[plasticpig]

BusaMK said:

Liked a lot of it but respectfully really disagree with a couple of points -

1. Advising motorists to glance over their shoulder to check their blindspot while doing 70 mph is a bad idea. Bikers have no trouble with this, but Imagine joe bloggs trying this out and swerving their car partly into the next lane - I bet many are not capable of doing this safely. Perhaps this explains your 'lane swerve phenomena' prior to lane change.
If you accelerate into the overtaking lane a vehicle cannot stay hiding in your blindspot. Mirror, signal, accelerate and change lane would be good practise for the average motorist moving into the outside lane. This also breeds a good habit of accelerating on slip roads to join the motorway, a skill which some motorists unbelievably lack.

Really bad advice IMO. In one of my cars I would never perform a lane change without a shoulder check. For one it doesn't have a nearside wing mirror (it was built that way) and being a convertible it has quite large blind spot areas. With quite slow acceleration by modern standards it would be positively dangerous to do as you suggest.

[SK425]

LFAwhoosh said:

While the 'life saver' is where the buck stops, Busa's technique is technically sound

I'm not sure it is.

LFAwhoosh said:

- you will only have a vehicle hiding in your blind-spot for the duration of checking the mirror if you're traveling at the same speed.

Are you and/or Busa assuming the other driver maintains a constant speed? Because if they happen to accelerate when I do, Busa's technique won't help. I'll be solely reliant on the other driver to avoid the collision. Another driver to whom I am completely oblivious, and yet a simple blind spot check, such as I understand is taught to every novice driver, could have told me they were there.

LFAwhoosh said:

So perhaps that is the circumstance where it makes the most sense to turn your head to check - if all lanes are of fairly similar traffic speed, such as average traffic conditions on the M25.

For me, I think the need for a blind spot check is more determined by how well I've been keeping up my mirror observations than how heavy the traffic is.

LFAwhoosh said:

'Booting it' and hoping nothing is there is a crude way to label it - maintain good observation, and use both techniques to your benefit, and then you can't go wrong. Certainly on the autobahn If i know I'm on a 'hot' section I'd be very wary about not building speed before moving into the overtaking lane - checking that the blindspot is important but won't help if there's a 911 turbo on the way at warp 9 even if its 1km away.

I was being a bit cheeky with "boot it and hope" - Busa didn't use those words - but I think there's a grain of truth in it. I don't always do a blind spot check. I don't always signal. I don't always complete the lane change before commencing the speed change. But if I wasn't sure my blind spot was clear I can't imagine relying on Busa's technique to keep me out of trouble. A vehicle in my blind spot will stay in my blind spot unless and until our relative speeds change - and me accelerating is no guarantee of that happening.

[MC Bodge]

Always check your blind spot. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you want other people to do it?

I quite often see people on motorways pulling out on others who are alongside and have occasionally seen collisions resulting from it. These people presumably didn't check.

FWIW, I agree with what Mr RU LOCAL says and, as a result of reading, talking to others and working some things out on my own I try to drive on motorways in the ways he describes. It is a pity that so many others don't.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 7th May 19:57

[DHB07]

Red Devil said:

I have a slightly left field theory to explain this phenomenon. It's a self protection thing. In centuries past long distance travellers went by caravan (I don't mean those things that the Top Gear trio love smashing up!). Doing so alone exposed one to the danger of being robbed and even killed. The same protection principle lay behind merchant ships sailing in convoy. It's not confined to humans. Migrating animals, birds, and fish do it too for the same reason. Safety in numbers.

Left field, maybe. But I completely agree! Likewise, you'll find some drivers like to sit behind you at your pace because they quite like someone else to do the driving for them.

Good read as always Reg.

[Variomatic]

As a recent convert to Reg's posts (how have I not seen them all this time???) can I add to the chorus of "excellent read!"

I'd also like to put in a request for his thoughts on MLMs.

We all hate them, but we all seem to have different ideas of what constitutes lane hogging - one person's MLM could well be another person's "forward looking" driver.

I've got to say that, as a rule, I find the "left lane at every opportunity" driver to be far more annoying, and potentially more of a hazard, than the person who stays out a little longer than I might like before returning to the left when he's not going to have to move straight out again

Around here we're blessed with one (2 lane) dual carriageway, which is often fairly quiet. We also seem to have an awful lot of drivers who'll come hammering up behind you, move out, then move back in again (often too close), only to be out and passing the 4 cars you've been following almost before he's straightened his wheels. And he'll be doing this even though there's not a car in sight in lane 2 as far as the horizon behind him.

To me, that absolutely screams lack of awareness ahead (or he'd see he's going to have to pull out again) and behind (or he'd see that staying ot won't inconvenience anyone). Yet he's usually in an Audi (ok, unfair cliche there) and invariably doing well in excess of the limit.

At least the MLM is showing poor awareness at a more sensible speed

[Z.B]

R_U_LOCAL said:

I don't like the contact position. I've never taught it or used it myself, either on the motorway or on other roads. The police driving school I taught at did not recommend or teach the contact position and that page was crossed out in all the school's copies of Roadcraft..

I'm interested by this - I will start a new thread if you'd care to comment......

[R_U_LOCAL]

Z.B said:

R_U_LOCAL said:

I don't like the contact position. I've never taught it or used it myself, either on the motorway or on other roads. The police driving school I taught at did not recommend or teach the contact position and that page was crossed out in all the school's copies of Roadcraft..

I'm interested by this - I will start a new thread if you'd care to comment......

Fire away!

[Red Devil]

Variomatic said:

I've got to say that, as a rule, I find the "left lane at every opportunity" driver to be far more annoying, and potentially more of a hazard, than the person who stays out a little longer than I might like before returning to the left when he's not going to have to move straight out again

I use the 'count to 10' method. For it to work you have to be able to finely judge the relative speed of the vehicles in lane 1. Having to move out again from lane 1 before reaching 10 normally means it was better to stay in lane 2 in the first place.

That said, if there is a vehicle approaching from behind at warp factor 9, I will go back into lane 1 if there is sufficient margin. I don't want some lunatic up my chuff and its easier to get out of their way and let them have their collision somewhere else.

[Variomatic]

Red Devil said:

I use the 'count to 10' method. For it to work you have to be able to finely judge the relative speed of the vehicles in lane 1. Having to move out again from lane 1 before reaching 10 normally means it was better to stay in lane 2 in the first place.

That said, if there is a vehicle approaching from behind at warp factor 9, I will go back into lane 1 if there is sufficient margin. I don't want some lunatic up my chuff and its easier to get out of their way and let them have their collision somewhere else.

Yep, I can live with that. It's the ones who seem to be so hung up on lane hogging* that they'll move out of a perfectly clear lane, or one where they're by far the fastest vehicle, when it's obvious they'll need to move out again.

Especially with a group of cars ahead, they face the real possibility of someone in that group deciding to overtake as they sling-shot themselves out again. Staying clearly visible in the next lane out improves the chance of them being seen. I don't really care about "who's fault" that would be, and they're unlikely to after it happens, because a high speed crash is gonna smart regardless of "who's fault" it is!

I do seem to remember that, centuries ago when I was learning, the HC had advice to "avoid unnecessary lane changes" along with the advice to move left when safe, but that seems to have disappeared from more recent issues.

• I know that's conjecture, but it's the only reason I can think of to justify their actions

[Dave Hedgehog]

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

your taking a fast right hander that becomes ever tighter, the nose of the car starts to wash out and the car starts to push wide from lane 3 to lane 1. lanes 2 and 1 are clear so should you let the car drift and keep your foot in it or should you lift off and hope the rear does not let go?

There's a third option, where you ease up slightly on the throttle without jumping off it completely.

This should kill the understeer without resulting in fierydeathspincrash. If you fractionally reduce the tension in your grip on the wheel at the same time, you're even less likely to cause the car to rotate.

Thank you, I will remember that for next time

[Zod]

The clumping observation is accurate. It seems to happen to an even greater extent at night. If I'm making progress on a motorway at night (usually the M1 or M6), I find myself driving from large clump to large clump with stretches of almost solo driving in between.

[monthefish]

Red Devil said:

First, may I say how great it is to see you back writing yet more superbly informative articles.

Agreed.

His articles are very well written, educational but not condescending.
A welcome return to PH.

[Foppo]

Good article to read very long do.

Maybe this has been mentioned before but isn't about time we take learners on the motorway? I don't mean dad or mum but as part of the driving lessons.

If I remember I was driving on the motorway on my third lesson.Just a thought.

[monthefish]

Foppo said:

If I remember I was driving on the motorway on my third lesson.

I thought learners were't allowed on the motorway?

[silverfoxcc]

Yes, another plus for this. I have been driving since 1964, got the IAM via Rolls Royce in 1999,and still find things that i can take on board, always trying to improve my driving that little bit better.
As regard May overtaking, my instructor waaaaaay back in 1964 did give me two bits of advice that i have never forgoten.

1) an indication by anybody IS NOT sufficient proof or authority to carry out the move,
eg a left indicator, watch his front wheels to confirm, a right indicator,just hold back until he confirms it or not. Also he did say for every 10mph you are travelling, let the indicator that amout of times bfore doing anything.

2) the other thing was the 'cutting back' into a lane over doing the overtake. He said to make sure that you give the chap behind enough 'breathing space' for him not to get humpy at it,he said make sure you see both his headlights in your rear window before moving over, and an indication left is not always required unless you need to move over a bit sooner, as the HC says keep left etc etc.

I can appreciate that with the larger rear windows of todays cars this is not always possible, (my first car was a 1946 Ford Anglia with a letter box sized window)

Also as regards the 'life saver' this was only brought home to me when i took the CBT and ventured out on two wheels. I am of the opinion that a full bike licence should be a pre requisite before you get on four wheels as you are certainly made mor aware of your surroundings,and mortality, when on two, so YES i do use it, nd it has come in handy, esp with those retards who sit just in it for a while not bothering to drop ack or overtake. ONLY in that situation do i make their mind up by slighty moving to my right whilst incresing speed (if possible) before indictating and then proceeding as above.
The Lads at Crewe also instilled the mantra

'If your intentions will cause another motorist to alter their speed,direction or course, abort the thought'

This thread and the earlier one should be made a 'sticky' if it could. The sad thing is guys like us ar in the minority of being proud of our driving and improving our skill base.

[Jon1967x]

At 70 mph that's 7 flashes of an indicator before manouvering if I understand you correctly.? I think that's a bit excessive. If I saw a car ahead do that I might think they'd forgotten and left it on. Most modern cars have a nudge option which just does 3 flashes and I think that is sufficient most of the time. My personal view is on a motorway unless the traffic is so bad that you need cooperation from other drivers, the indication is almost the last thing I do. I determine it's safe to pull out, and only indicate then. I guess if I was that convinced I didn't need to give that much/any notice then why bother at all, but there are occasional situations, often courtesy.

And the 'Life saver' check. I think the clue is in the name.