What exactly is Advanced Driving?
Discussion
This post has been running around my mind for a while now. There should be a straightforward answer to what seems to be such a simple question. I should be able to easily define “advanced driving” in a couple of sentences, using a few key words and phrases. The trouble is, the more I think about it, the more difficult I find it to actually define.
It might be easy to define an advanced driver as someone who is, in some way, “better” than the average driver. But what exactly is the “average driver”? And how do you define if your driving is “better” or “worse” than the average driver?
Maybe there should be some kind of qualification which defines an advanced driver – you know – some kind of additional training followed by a test. Yes – that’s a good idea.
But if you have a google you’ll find that there is the Institute of Advanced Motorists, the Cardington special test, the RoSPA advanced test, the DIAmond advanced motorist test and any number of additional private companies and individuals offering training from fleet driving up to high performance track skills.
And then there are the different police courses – standard, advanced, pursuit, close protection & instructor’s courses. Where do they fit in to the advanced driving palette?
All these qualifications can be a measure of someone’s ability, but their ability at what? What actually is the difference between an ordinary driver and an advanced driver?
So I think I need to answer the question by examining a few different principles which I believe go towards defining “advanced driving”. To make it a bit more interesting, I’ll invite you to contribute your own ideas too.
To begin though, I’ve lifted a paragraph directly from the old blue Roadcraft. Paragraph 6 to be exact:
Now on to Reg’s principles of advanced driving. Let’s start with a few positive mental attributes:
1. An open mind and an ongoing willingness to learn
This is the first attribute I would expect a more advanced driver to possess. There are a lot of drivers out there who aren’t really that interested in driving. They see motoring simply as a mode of transport and they view driving as a chore to be carried out in much the same way as gardening, washing-up, painting the dog or hanging the kettle out to dry. Their driving “learning curve” flattened out the day after they passed their driving test and their driving style is a combination of skills which were taught by their instructor or developed over time – mostly for convenience.
In my view an advanced driver is never complete – they should always feel that – no matter what they have accomplished or how much experience they have gained – there is always something new to learn. They should treat each and every drive = no matter how mundane - as a learning experience.
2. A realistic assessment of their own abilities
Let me put that another way – a good driver should never think they are better than they actually are.
There is nothing more dangerous than a driver who thinks their skill level is higher than it really is. This is particularly true in the police where newly qualified advanced drivers have a noticeably higher chance of having an accident in the first 12 months after passing their advanced course. There is a tendency with these drivers to think “I’m advanced – I’m invincible”, right up to the point where they discover that they’re not.
So an advanced driver should be aware of their own skill level (and should, in my view, err on the side of caution by always underestimating it) and should never exceed it.
3. A calm and composed attitude with just the right amount of assertiveness
This is a fairly obvious one, but should at least be mentioned. I’ve included assertiveness too as I don’t believe a good driver necessarily has to be a completely defensive one. There should be a desire, when the time is right, to want to make good progress and that requires a positive, assertive attitude paired with the right amount of cautiousness.
That composed attitude also comforts passengers, who, generally, unconsciously pick up on a drivers emotions.
To put it another way, think Huggy Bear rather than Starsky & Hutch.
But without the platform shoes.
4. An ability to remove emotion from driving
A good driver doesn’t personalise situations and has the ability to forgive others and themselves. This is a very simple principle, but is one of the most difficult abilities to acquire & some of the most technically competent drivers can never achieve it completely.
I’m happy to admit I struggle myself sometimes.
5. An active (but not overactive) imagination
Driving plans are based on what you can see, but just as importantly, what you can’t see. It’s important that you can imagine the likely hazards that are out of view, without being too cautious and imagining unlikely scenarios.
6. Sustained concentration
An ability to concentrate is essential for any driver, but the very best are able to maintain a high level of concentration throughout any drive in any circumstances. They shouldn’t get bored or distracted.
7. Planning
Every action a driver takes should be planned in advance. Driving plans should constantly evolve and should include alternative plans in case the situation changes. In other words, plans can’t be rigid and you must always have a plan b and usually a plan c to fall back on.
Planning also includes the ability of a driver to maintain excellent observation skills, combined with the ability to interpret what they are seeing correctly and understand what is happening.
Now, let’s list some of the more practical skills I’d consider to be available to an advanced driver.
8. Smoothness with the controls
This one has already been discussed at length and there are multiple benefits to a smooth driving style. Have a look around the forum & you’ll find plenty of information on this one.
9. Accuracy
By which I mean an ability to accurately place the car exactly where it should be at the appropriate point on the road. Accuracy also includes an ability to identify the correct time and place to brake, change gear, steer, accelerate etc. When I was instructing, accuracy would be taught at lower speeds until it became second nature – then the speeds could increase.
10. Mechanical sympathy
A good driver doesn’t necessarily need a comprehensive mechanical knowledge, but a little knowledge of how the oily bits work is useful. What they should have, however, is an ability to use a vehicle in a way which keeps wear and tear to a minimum. Smoothness is a key aspect of course, but other points like having a little sympathy with a cold engine & gearbox and avoiding riding the clutch are important.
11. Feel
We should be using all our senses when driving, including our sense of touch. Fingers on the steering wheel should detect road surface changes and grip levels. Feet on pedals should detect clutch biting points and the reactions of the brakes. Backside and torso should detect the balance and attitude of a car – particularly when cornering.
That’s my list for now – there are others, but for simplicity I’ll keep it to 11 for the time being.
One thing I’d also like you to consider – the things I haven’t included in the list. Particularly things which many people would consider qualities of an advanced driver.
Fast reactions, for instance. Reaction times have very little relevance in advanced road driving where the ability to plan ahead should remove almost all necessity for fast reactions.
Confidence is another. Confidence can so easily lead to overconfidence which can, in turn, easily lead to road-sky-road-sky-road-sky-ditch-hospital.
I’ve also left out any references to sliding, drifting and other slidey-around fun activities. These are skills that a good driver can learn and enjoy, but I’m not of the opinion that they have anything to do with advanced driving in it’s correct context, which is that of safe, smooth, quick and controlled road driving.
Anyway, that’s my bit – time for your thoughts.
It might be easy to define an advanced driver as someone who is, in some way, “better” than the average driver. But what exactly is the “average driver”? And how do you define if your driving is “better” or “worse” than the average driver?
Maybe there should be some kind of qualification which defines an advanced driver – you know – some kind of additional training followed by a test. Yes – that’s a good idea.
But if you have a google you’ll find that there is the Institute of Advanced Motorists, the Cardington special test, the RoSPA advanced test, the DIAmond advanced motorist test and any number of additional private companies and individuals offering training from fleet driving up to high performance track skills.
And then there are the different police courses – standard, advanced, pursuit, close protection & instructor’s courses. Where do they fit in to the advanced driving palette?
All these qualifications can be a measure of someone’s ability, but their ability at what? What actually is the difference between an ordinary driver and an advanced driver?
So I think I need to answer the question by examining a few different principles which I believe go towards defining “advanced driving”. To make it a bit more interesting, I’ll invite you to contribute your own ideas too.
To begin though, I’ve lifted a paragraph directly from the old blue Roadcraft. Paragraph 6 to be exact:
Paragraph 6 of the old parchment version of Roadcraft said:
Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively. He will always be in the right place on the road, travelling at the right speed with the right gear engaged and he achieves this desirable state by concentrating all the time, planning ahead and driving systematically.
Now, apart from the overt 1970’s sexism, this is quite a nice little paragraph. It’s quite dated, of course, but the basic principles are correct.Now on to Reg’s principles of advanced driving. Let’s start with a few positive mental attributes:
1. An open mind and an ongoing willingness to learn
This is the first attribute I would expect a more advanced driver to possess. There are a lot of drivers out there who aren’t really that interested in driving. They see motoring simply as a mode of transport and they view driving as a chore to be carried out in much the same way as gardening, washing-up, painting the dog or hanging the kettle out to dry. Their driving “learning curve” flattened out the day after they passed their driving test and their driving style is a combination of skills which were taught by their instructor or developed over time – mostly for convenience.
In my view an advanced driver is never complete – they should always feel that – no matter what they have accomplished or how much experience they have gained – there is always something new to learn. They should treat each and every drive = no matter how mundane - as a learning experience.
2. A realistic assessment of their own abilities
Let me put that another way – a good driver should never think they are better than they actually are.
There is nothing more dangerous than a driver who thinks their skill level is higher than it really is. This is particularly true in the police where newly qualified advanced drivers have a noticeably higher chance of having an accident in the first 12 months after passing their advanced course. There is a tendency with these drivers to think “I’m advanced – I’m invincible”, right up to the point where they discover that they’re not.
So an advanced driver should be aware of their own skill level (and should, in my view, err on the side of caution by always underestimating it) and should never exceed it.
3. A calm and composed attitude with just the right amount of assertiveness
This is a fairly obvious one, but should at least be mentioned. I’ve included assertiveness too as I don’t believe a good driver necessarily has to be a completely defensive one. There should be a desire, when the time is right, to want to make good progress and that requires a positive, assertive attitude paired with the right amount of cautiousness.
That composed attitude also comforts passengers, who, generally, unconsciously pick up on a drivers emotions.
To put it another way, think Huggy Bear rather than Starsky & Hutch.
But without the platform shoes.
4. An ability to remove emotion from driving
A good driver doesn’t personalise situations and has the ability to forgive others and themselves. This is a very simple principle, but is one of the most difficult abilities to acquire & some of the most technically competent drivers can never achieve it completely.
I’m happy to admit I struggle myself sometimes.
5. An active (but not overactive) imagination
Driving plans are based on what you can see, but just as importantly, what you can’t see. It’s important that you can imagine the likely hazards that are out of view, without being too cautious and imagining unlikely scenarios.
6. Sustained concentration
An ability to concentrate is essential for any driver, but the very best are able to maintain a high level of concentration throughout any drive in any circumstances. They shouldn’t get bored or distracted.
7. Planning
Every action a driver takes should be planned in advance. Driving plans should constantly evolve and should include alternative plans in case the situation changes. In other words, plans can’t be rigid and you must always have a plan b and usually a plan c to fall back on.
Planning also includes the ability of a driver to maintain excellent observation skills, combined with the ability to interpret what they are seeing correctly and understand what is happening.
Now, let’s list some of the more practical skills I’d consider to be available to an advanced driver.
8. Smoothness with the controls
This one has already been discussed at length and there are multiple benefits to a smooth driving style. Have a look around the forum & you’ll find plenty of information on this one.
9. Accuracy
By which I mean an ability to accurately place the car exactly where it should be at the appropriate point on the road. Accuracy also includes an ability to identify the correct time and place to brake, change gear, steer, accelerate etc. When I was instructing, accuracy would be taught at lower speeds until it became second nature – then the speeds could increase.
10. Mechanical sympathy
A good driver doesn’t necessarily need a comprehensive mechanical knowledge, but a little knowledge of how the oily bits work is useful. What they should have, however, is an ability to use a vehicle in a way which keeps wear and tear to a minimum. Smoothness is a key aspect of course, but other points like having a little sympathy with a cold engine & gearbox and avoiding riding the clutch are important.
11. Feel
We should be using all our senses when driving, including our sense of touch. Fingers on the steering wheel should detect road surface changes and grip levels. Feet on pedals should detect clutch biting points and the reactions of the brakes. Backside and torso should detect the balance and attitude of a car – particularly when cornering.
That’s my list for now – there are others, but for simplicity I’ll keep it to 11 for the time being.
One thing I’d also like you to consider – the things I haven’t included in the list. Particularly things which many people would consider qualities of an advanced driver.
Fast reactions, for instance. Reaction times have very little relevance in advanced road driving where the ability to plan ahead should remove almost all necessity for fast reactions.
Confidence is another. Confidence can so easily lead to overconfidence which can, in turn, easily lead to road-sky-road-sky-road-sky-ditch-hospital.
I’ve also left out any references to sliding, drifting and other slidey-around fun activities. These are skills that a good driver can learn and enjoy, but I’m not of the opinion that they have anything to do with advanced driving in it’s correct context, which is that of safe, smooth, quick and controlled road driving.
Anyway, that’s my bit – time for your thoughts.
All I'm going to add is that I hate the term "advanced driving" with growing passion. It sounds so sanctimonious and up its own arse that it's little wonder those who might otherwise have had an interest in improving their driving are turned off by the thought of doing something at the first hurdle.
Advanced driving is driving, and driving is advanced driving - wanting to be a better road driver is wanting to be a better road driver. I'm sure the majority on here want to be better drivers, but would they want the label of being an advanced driver or even venture into this forum?
Those with an AD certificate are often no no better than many other drivers without. They are only more advanced than they were previously.
Advanced driving is driving, and driving is advanced driving - wanting to be a better road driver is wanting to be a better road driver. I'm sure the majority on here want to be better drivers, but would they want the label of being an advanced driver or even venture into this forum?
Those with an AD certificate are often no no better than many other drivers without. They are only more advanced than they were previously.
Synchromesh said:
All I'm going to add is that I hate the term "advanced driving" with growing passion. It sounds so sanctimonious and up its own arse
I agree. It is a label that seems to appeal to a certain type of fundamentalist, institutionalised, rigid-rule following person, some (although seemingly not many)of whom frequent this forum.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Good stuff
I aspire to all of the things that you has written.A willingness to learn, a questioning and critical mind and interest in the subject are possible the most important aspects.
My driving has improved enormously in the past few years, Prompted by beginning to ride a motorbike.
I have no great talent and am certainly not great, but I would hope that I am a considerably 'better' rider and driver than most through learning, constant practicing and an interest in constantly improving.
It's a fair point about the title and one might argue those who have passed a higher qualification may then fall into the over confident and/or no longer willing to learn. I'll stick with the term though for simplicity
My comments on the list:
I think there are groupings: an advanced driver (the person), technical driving or execution and the journey. I'm known to get a bit hung up on semantics so keep with me.. there are:
skills related to the driver like willingness to learn, concentration, attitude etc which are irrespective of how they chose drive that day. I would include ability to assess risk, but then the decisions taken with that knowledge is a completely different matter (see last point)
Execution which is how individual components are done. Lane position, speed control (acceleration sense plus braking), how to overtake, etc in isolation these can be assessed and to a degree how these things join together.
Finally the journey which takes Into account the objectives for that day and the decisions taken. Some days I want to simply get from A to B as quickly as possible (or out for a Sunday morning blast) safely (define how safe is safe) but accepting a degree of risk of both incident (of all types) and prosecution that is higher than on a day when I'm taking an elderly relative to hospital and all things in-between. I say higher risk as driving carries risk and it is a constant judgement on what's acceptable to you and others. Plus anyone that exceeds the speed limit for instance is risking prosecution. Easy example: an overtake carries risk otherwise why have a time exposed to danger? I overtake, I judge the risk is acceptable at that time, it's a calculation concluded in my head based on what I know at that time etc.
Many of the debates on here are in effect over where to draw the line on what the journey desire is. There was a video a month or so back (saved by the system) which drew a lot of debate about that overtake. 50% were on whether it was a technically current overtake and 50% were on whether the risk was in effect worth taking and what those risks were. We have debates over which lane, turning left from L2 at a roundabout, doing a loop around a roundabout to avoid a queue, filtering and merging especially in situations where roads split then recombine etc. maybe all this is covered in one of the sections but I don't believe it's as straightforward as we believe in real world driving.
I for one am interested in all three areas, the last area being the hardest in my opinion to reach agreement but is probably the cause of many issues on the road. The choice and decision making, the trade off of risk etc.
My comments on the list:
I think there are groupings: an advanced driver (the person), technical driving or execution and the journey. I'm known to get a bit hung up on semantics so keep with me.. there are:
skills related to the driver like willingness to learn, concentration, attitude etc which are irrespective of how they chose drive that day. I would include ability to assess risk, but then the decisions taken with that knowledge is a completely different matter (see last point)
Execution which is how individual components are done. Lane position, speed control (acceleration sense plus braking), how to overtake, etc in isolation these can be assessed and to a degree how these things join together.
Finally the journey which takes Into account the objectives for that day and the decisions taken. Some days I want to simply get from A to B as quickly as possible (or out for a Sunday morning blast) safely (define how safe is safe) but accepting a degree of risk of both incident (of all types) and prosecution that is higher than on a day when I'm taking an elderly relative to hospital and all things in-between. I say higher risk as driving carries risk and it is a constant judgement on what's acceptable to you and others. Plus anyone that exceeds the speed limit for instance is risking prosecution. Easy example: an overtake carries risk otherwise why have a time exposed to danger? I overtake, I judge the risk is acceptable at that time, it's a calculation concluded in my head based on what I know at that time etc.
Many of the debates on here are in effect over where to draw the line on what the journey desire is. There was a video a month or so back (saved by the system) which drew a lot of debate about that overtake. 50% were on whether it was a technically current overtake and 50% were on whether the risk was in effect worth taking and what those risks were. We have debates over which lane, turning left from L2 at a roundabout, doing a loop around a roundabout to avoid a queue, filtering and merging especially in situations where roads split then recombine etc. maybe all this is covered in one of the sections but I don't believe it's as straightforward as we believe in real world driving.
I for one am interested in all three areas, the last area being the hardest in my opinion to reach agreement but is probably the cause of many issues on the road. The choice and decision making, the trade off of risk etc.
Edited by Jon1967x on Saturday 10th May 06:47
From my experience of being driven by police instructors (even some tyre shredding loon at Llandow) the thing that impressed me most was their observation and incorporating what they were seeing into their driving. It is easy to look through the windscreen and nothing travels between your eyes and your brain at all, particularly on familiar roads or long tedious motorway journeys.
"The Blue Book" was the last edition of Roadcraft to contain the "Ten Commandments of Motoring". The majority of people coming to AD now are, therefore, unlikely to have seen them. I reproduce them here for their delight and edification. They are as pertinent now as they were when first published.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF MOTORING
1. Perfect your Roadcraft.
Roadcraft includes every aspect of driving and can be acquired only by a systematic approach to hazards and constant application of the basic rules. Good Roadcraft enables a driver to avoid awkward and possibly dangerous situations. It not only prevents accidents but also makes driving less arduous.
- Use your skill to stay out of trouble.
2. Drive with deliberation and overtake as quickly as possible
Good driving demands continual planning and correct decisions which must be put into operation with deliberation. There is no place for the half-hearted manoeuvre born of doubt or uncertainty. If it is not completely safe it should not be attempted at all.
Overtaking should always be completed in the minimum of time to leave the road clear for approaching or following vehicles.
- Deliberation eliminates uncertainty. When safe, GO.
3. Develop car sense and know the capabilities of your vehicle.
Car sense is the ability to get the best from the vehicle without jerks or vibration. Before a strange vehicle is driven fast the driver should accustom himself to its controls, acceleration and braking capabilities and handling characteristics. Never expect more from them than they are able to give. Vehicles, like drivers, have their limitations.
- Driver and vehicle must blend to ensure skilful driving.
4. Give proper signals; use the horn and headlights thoughtfully.
Use the signals given in the Highway Code. An ambiguous signal is misleading and dangerous. Use of the horn is a form of signalling much neglected by some and overdone by others. It should be used as a person would use his voice, neither aggressively nor rudely. Flashing the lights is an efficient form of signalling at night and on fast roads.
- Give good signals in good time.
5. Concentrate all the time to avoid accidents.
Concentration is the keystone of good driving. It is a primary duty but often a neglected one. Complete concentration will ensure that every detail is observed. It is often the smallest detail that gives the clue to what is about to happen. If it is missed an accident, or at least an unpleasant experience, may result.
- Concentration assists observation.
6. Think before acting.
The good driver makes progress so smoothly and with so little apparent fuss or effort that to the uninitiated he appears to respond to situations automatically. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact is that by continuous concentration and thought he has raised his driving to a fine art.
Every hazard and driving operation presents problems which can only be solved by thinking. A thoughtful driver applies the appropriate features of the System, carries out every operation and manoeuvre in plenty of time and consequently is always in the right place at the right moment.
- Think and avoid accidents.
7. Exercise restraint and hold back when necessary.
To hold back is to follow a vehicle at a safe distance until road and traffic conditions allow it to be overtaken. This will call for restraint especially when in a hurry. Overtaking or any other manoeuvre must never be attempted unless it can be completed with 100 percent safety. Accidents are caused because a situation has been wrongly assessed.
- Whenever in doubt, wait.
8. Corner with safety.
Driving around a curve demands the application of the principles for cornering and a thorough knowledge of the forces acting on the vehicle. The most common faults are entering too fast or accelerating before the exit is clearly seen.
- Lose your speed or lose the car.
9. Use speed intelligently and drive fast only in the right places.
High speeds are safe only when a clear view is available for a considerable distance and there is time to assess each hazard as it appears, but speed at all times must be related to view. Safety with speed depends largely upon ability to recognise danger and to slow down in good time.
- Any fool can drive fast enough to be dangerous.
10. Know the Highway Code and put it into practice.
The Highway Code sets out rules for safety on the road. A failure to observe them could establish liability in any legal proceedings. The rules must be known and complied with if a driver's own behaviour is to be beyond reproach and he can presume to advise others. The Highway Code urges all to be courteous. A good driver goes farther and acknowledges courtesies extended to him.
- Drive according to the Highway Code and you will drive safely.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF MOTORING
1. Perfect your Roadcraft.
Roadcraft includes every aspect of driving and can be acquired only by a systematic approach to hazards and constant application of the basic rules. Good Roadcraft enables a driver to avoid awkward and possibly dangerous situations. It not only prevents accidents but also makes driving less arduous.
- Use your skill to stay out of trouble.
2. Drive with deliberation and overtake as quickly as possible
Good driving demands continual planning and correct decisions which must be put into operation with deliberation. There is no place for the half-hearted manoeuvre born of doubt or uncertainty. If it is not completely safe it should not be attempted at all.
Overtaking should always be completed in the minimum of time to leave the road clear for approaching or following vehicles.
- Deliberation eliminates uncertainty. When safe, GO.
3. Develop car sense and know the capabilities of your vehicle.
Car sense is the ability to get the best from the vehicle without jerks or vibration. Before a strange vehicle is driven fast the driver should accustom himself to its controls, acceleration and braking capabilities and handling characteristics. Never expect more from them than they are able to give. Vehicles, like drivers, have their limitations.
- Driver and vehicle must blend to ensure skilful driving.
4. Give proper signals; use the horn and headlights thoughtfully.
Use the signals given in the Highway Code. An ambiguous signal is misleading and dangerous. Use of the horn is a form of signalling much neglected by some and overdone by others. It should be used as a person would use his voice, neither aggressively nor rudely. Flashing the lights is an efficient form of signalling at night and on fast roads.
- Give good signals in good time.
5. Concentrate all the time to avoid accidents.
Concentration is the keystone of good driving. It is a primary duty but often a neglected one. Complete concentration will ensure that every detail is observed. It is often the smallest detail that gives the clue to what is about to happen. If it is missed an accident, or at least an unpleasant experience, may result.
- Concentration assists observation.
6. Think before acting.
The good driver makes progress so smoothly and with so little apparent fuss or effort that to the uninitiated he appears to respond to situations automatically. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact is that by continuous concentration and thought he has raised his driving to a fine art.
Every hazard and driving operation presents problems which can only be solved by thinking. A thoughtful driver applies the appropriate features of the System, carries out every operation and manoeuvre in plenty of time and consequently is always in the right place at the right moment.
- Think and avoid accidents.
7. Exercise restraint and hold back when necessary.
To hold back is to follow a vehicle at a safe distance until road and traffic conditions allow it to be overtaken. This will call for restraint especially when in a hurry. Overtaking or any other manoeuvre must never be attempted unless it can be completed with 100 percent safety. Accidents are caused because a situation has been wrongly assessed.
- Whenever in doubt, wait.
8. Corner with safety.
Driving around a curve demands the application of the principles for cornering and a thorough knowledge of the forces acting on the vehicle. The most common faults are entering too fast or accelerating before the exit is clearly seen.
- Lose your speed or lose the car.
9. Use speed intelligently and drive fast only in the right places.
High speeds are safe only when a clear view is available for a considerable distance and there is time to assess each hazard as it appears, but speed at all times must be related to view. Safety with speed depends largely upon ability to recognise danger and to slow down in good time.
- Any fool can drive fast enough to be dangerous.
10. Know the Highway Code and put it into practice.
The Highway Code sets out rules for safety on the road. A failure to observe them could establish liability in any legal proceedings. The rules must be known and complied with if a driver's own behaviour is to be beyond reproach and he can presume to advise others. The Highway Code urges all to be courteous. A good driver goes farther and acknowledges courtesies extended to him.
- Drive according to the Highway Code and you will drive safely.
Synchromesh said:
All I'm going to add is that I hate the term "advanced driving" with growing passion. It sounds so sanctimonious and up its own arse that it's little wonder those who might otherwise have had an interest in improving their driving are turned off by the thought of doing something at the first hurdle.
Advanced driving is driving, and driving is advanced driving - wanting to be a better road driver is wanting to be a better road driver. I'm sure the majority on here want to be better drivers, but would they want the label of being an advanced driver or even venture into this forum?
Those with an AD certificate are often no no better than many other drivers without. They are only more advanced than they were previously.
I can see where you're coming from with this.Advanced driving is driving, and driving is advanced driving - wanting to be a better road driver is wanting to be a better road driver. I'm sure the majority on here want to be better drivers, but would they want the label of being an advanced driver or even venture into this forum?
Those with an AD certificate are often no no better than many other drivers without. They are only more advanced than they were previously.
We're on a motoring enthusiasts forum populated by thousands of petrolheads. There are countless threads from people asking what faster or better car they should get next, or how to modify their car to make it faster, or what high performance tyres to choose etc.
But have a look at the post counts on the "Gassing Station" page. There are more posts in the "Home cinema and hi-fi" and the "All creatures great and small" forums than there are on the advanced driving forum.
Are PHers actually more interested in surround sound and dog grooming than becoming better drivers? I'm sure, on the whole, that they are not, so there probably is quite a serious image problem with what is traditionally labelled as "advanced driving".
I bet if the forum title was changed to "Performance road driving" it would generate much more interest.
I suppose that was why I started posting on here in the first place. Above everything else, I'm an enthusiast and I love driving. It helps to have some qualifications to back up my opinions and views, but I'd love to have a few more people dip in to this forum from other parts of the site. If image is the problem, then let's see whet we can do about it.
greygoose said:
From my experience of being driven by police instructors (even some tyre shredding loon at Llandow)
That was a cracking day wasn't it! Cost me a fortune in the long run though as I got hooked that day and I then had to go down the track day car, modifying, track tyre, crash helmet route!For me, that deleted paragraph 6 sums it up almost perfectly. I'd only add the advice my dad gave me when I started driving - if you drive well, other road users won't notice you're there.
Obviously, he didn't mean that literally! But (even in the days before "road rage") his point was valid. Regardless of your own (self-assessed) level of skill, if you leave another road user annoyed / shaken / upset or cursing you then you've made a mistake.
Most people can't separate emotion from driving, so that driver you've just scared the bejesus out of - with a perfectly safe and exquisitely executed manoeuvre - could still be affected 5 minutes later when he drives into the back of someone.
He also told me (in no uncertain terms)that, if you're involved in a collision, at least part of the blame is on you. Again, possibly not a literal hard-and-fast rule, but a good maxim to work by on the road because it means you're not driving round with half-formed excuses already in your head!
Obviously, he didn't mean that literally! But (even in the days before "road rage") his point was valid. Regardless of your own (self-assessed) level of skill, if you leave another road user annoyed / shaken / upset or cursing you then you've made a mistake.
Most people can't separate emotion from driving, so that driver you've just scared the bejesus out of - with a perfectly safe and exquisitely executed manoeuvre - could still be affected 5 minutes later when he drives into the back of someone.
He also told me (in no uncertain terms)that, if you're involved in a collision, at least part of the blame is on you. Again, possibly not a literal hard-and-fast rule, but a good maxim to work by on the road because it means you're not driving round with half-formed excuses already in your head!
R_U_LOCAL said:
greygoose said:
From my experience of being driven by police instructors (even some tyre shredding loon at Llandow)
That was a cracking day wasn't it! Cost me a fortune in the long run though as I got hooked that day and I then had to go down the track day car, modifying, track tyre, crash helmet route!greygoose said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
greygoose said:
From my experience of being driven by police instructors (even some tyre shredding loon at Llandow)
That was a cracking day wasn't it! Cost me a fortune in the long run though as I got hooked that day and I then had to go down the track day car, modifying, track tyre, crash helmet route!Not on a public forum though!
Advanced driving is a step on the way to Expert Driving.
Expert drivers respect and obey the law and Highway Code even though they may not agree with it. They realise that these laws and guidelines are the result of civilised society and so set a good example to those who are just starting out or who are to be drivers.
If we ask the question what is civilised society , the answer is frequently a society in which people feel safe. Those who regard themselves as Advanced drivers often break this guideline by driving too close and cutting into a gap of less than four seconds between car, which can distress others.
For many, Advanced driving is high speed road driving with a label to make it acceptable.
Advanced drivers, from what I read, seem to put too much emphasis on speed, contact points and overtaking. On a properly planned journey this shouldn't be necessary.
I'm not trolling by the way, it's just that I teach Learners to be experts. That way they don't have to address the question, 'What is advanced driving'
Expert drivers respect and obey the law and Highway Code even though they may not agree with it. They realise that these laws and guidelines are the result of civilised society and so set a good example to those who are just starting out or who are to be drivers.
If we ask the question what is civilised society , the answer is frequently a society in which people feel safe. Those who regard themselves as Advanced drivers often break this guideline by driving too close and cutting into a gap of less than four seconds between car, which can distress others.
For many, Advanced driving is high speed road driving with a label to make it acceptable.
Advanced drivers, from what I read, seem to put too much emphasis on speed, contact points and overtaking. On a properly planned journey this shouldn't be necessary.
I'm not trolling by the way, it's just that I teach Learners to be experts. That way they don't have to address the question, 'What is advanced driving'
Martin A said:
Advanced driving is a step on the way to Expert Driving.
Expert drivers respect and obey the law and Highway Code even though they may not agree with it. They realise that these laws and guidelines are the result of civilised society and so set a good example to those who are just starting out or who are to be drivers.
If we ask the question what is civilised society , the answer is frequently a society in which people feel safe. Those who regard themselves as Advanced drivers often break this guideline by driving too close and cutting into a gap of less than four seconds between car, which can distress others.
For many, Advanced driving is high speed road driving with a label to make it acceptable.
Advanced drivers, from what I read, seem to put too much emphasis on speed, contact points and overtaking. On a properly planned journey this shouldn't be necessary.
I'm not trolling by the way, it's just that I teach Learners to be experts. That way they don't have to address the question, 'What is advanced driving'
I think it is a bit unrealistic to say that proper planning means overtaking is unnecessary, what happens if you chance upon a tractor, milk float, cyclist, horse rider etc on your journey are you going to sit behind them for mile after mile? Safe overtaking is a skill that is needed by all motorists even if they are not breaking the speed limit.Expert drivers respect and obey the law and Highway Code even though they may not agree with it. They realise that these laws and guidelines are the result of civilised society and so set a good example to those who are just starting out or who are to be drivers.
If we ask the question what is civilised society , the answer is frequently a society in which people feel safe. Those who regard themselves as Advanced drivers often break this guideline by driving too close and cutting into a gap of less than four seconds between car, which can distress others.
For many, Advanced driving is high speed road driving with a label to make it acceptable.
Advanced drivers, from what I read, seem to put too much emphasis on speed, contact points and overtaking. On a properly planned journey this shouldn't be necessary.
I'm not trolling by the way, it's just that I teach Learners to be experts. That way they don't have to address the question, 'What is advanced driving'
MC Bodge said:
Synchromesh said:
All I'm going to add is that I hate the term "advanced driving" with growing passion. It sounds so sanctimonious and up its own arse
I agree.greygoose said:
I think it is a bit unrealistic to say that proper planning means overtaking is unnecessary
Unrealistic? It's downright bizarre. How the hell can you have a meaningful discussion about whether overtaking is necessary?! When I go out for a drive and along the way I come upon slower vehicles from time to time, not a single overtake is necessary because there's nothing necessary about the whole drive - I'm just out enjoying myself. Except that every single overtake is necessary, because I'm out enjoying myself and the thing I enjoy when I'm behind slower vehicles is planning and executing overtakes, so not overtaking would completely defeat the purpose of the journey.Edited by SK425 on Saturday 10th May 18:47
greygoose said:
I think it is a bit unrealistic to say that proper planning means overtaking is unnecessary, what happens if you chance upon a tractor, milk float, cyclist, horse rider etc on your journey are you going to sit behind them for mile after mile? Safe overtaking is a skill that is needed by all motorists even if they are not breaking the speed limit.
I suspect you misunderstood what he meant. I don't think he's suggesting that overtaking is never necessary, more that the heavy emphasis placed on it by a lot of drivers shouldn't be necessary for road driving. When sharing a road with other drivers of unknown ability, safety has to come well before "progress" because any risk decision you make is also made on behalf of the other cars around you. You have no right whatsoever to risk their safety if you get it wrong.
That's not to say that overtaking should't happen - of course it should. But, if you're having to use every tool in the book to keep it "safe" then you're probably pushing the limit a bit too fine for a public road.
Variomatic said:
You have no right whatsoever to risk their safety if you get it wrong.
That's not to say that overtaking should't happen - of course it should.
Not quite sure what you mean there. Those two statements contradict. You risk other people's safety if you get it wrong simply by driving a car in their vicinity, let alone doing anything as hair-raising as overtaking.That's not to say that overtaking should't happen - of course it should.
SK425 said:
Not quite sure what you mean there. Those two statements contradict. You risk other people's safety if you get it wrong simply by driving a car in their vicinity, let alone doing anything as hair-raising as overtaking.
They only contradict if you live and drive in a black & white world where things are either "safe" or "unsafe" by clearly defined standards. In the real world there are degrees of risk. Your idea of an acceptable risk may well not be the same as that of the person you're passing. That can annoy them at best or cause unpredictable reactions from them at worst, both of which may increase the risk beyond what you'd assessed.
The closer you push things towards the limit of safety, the more likely that becomes.
From some of the posts so far I think we're in danger of forgetting that driving can still be an enjoyable experience.
If we lose ourselves too much in what is or isn't necessary, then we'll descend into the type of argument that really puts enthusiasts off.
One of the key points I didn't include in the first post was an ability to adjust your driving style to both the type of vehicle you're driving and the type of journey you are driving on.
There are loads of different journey types of course, but the one we shouldn't forget is the one we take just for pleasure. If we're out for a drive on our favourite roads just for the sake of it, an overtake couldn't really be classed as necessary, could it? Does that mean we shouldn't take a perfectly safe overtake when it is presented to us? No, of course it doesn't.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying driving our cars just for the sake of it, and that's probably where "advanced driving" is letting itself down. It seems to be promoted as safe and serious and sensible, when it can also be enjoyable, challenging and spirited - exactly the things which should attract keen drivers and car enthusiasts.
The subject needs lightening up a bit - not without losing any of the key principles of course - but with a view to attracting more people, especially enthusiasts, to the idea that becoming a better driver is just as satisfying and enjoyable as getting a better car or improving your current one.
I suppose that's what I've always tried to do with my posts - to inject a little humour and enthusiasm & keep things interesting and relevant. It's a shame a few more PHers don't dip into this forum every now and again.
If we lose ourselves too much in what is or isn't necessary, then we'll descend into the type of argument that really puts enthusiasts off.
One of the key points I didn't include in the first post was an ability to adjust your driving style to both the type of vehicle you're driving and the type of journey you are driving on.
There are loads of different journey types of course, but the one we shouldn't forget is the one we take just for pleasure. If we're out for a drive on our favourite roads just for the sake of it, an overtake couldn't really be classed as necessary, could it? Does that mean we shouldn't take a perfectly safe overtake when it is presented to us? No, of course it doesn't.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying driving our cars just for the sake of it, and that's probably where "advanced driving" is letting itself down. It seems to be promoted as safe and serious and sensible, when it can also be enjoyable, challenging and spirited - exactly the things which should attract keen drivers and car enthusiasts.
The subject needs lightening up a bit - not without losing any of the key principles of course - but with a view to attracting more people, especially enthusiasts, to the idea that becoming a better driver is just as satisfying and enjoyable as getting a better car or improving your current one.
I suppose that's what I've always tried to do with my posts - to inject a little humour and enthusiasm & keep things interesting and relevant. It's a shame a few more PHers don't dip into this forum every now and again.
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