What exactly is Advanced Driving?
Discussion
SK425 said:
The camera car appeared to start moving back into the left lane whilst still alongside the overtakee, so I'm not sure I'd agree there was no real danger, but the red car looked borderline OK. I guess that's what you're getting at - if the only way to get the overtake is to move back in at a point that's borderline OK to you, it might not be quite OK to the overtakee. Perhaps the principle is to think, "what would I be OK with if I were the other driver" and then add a bit for good measure.
It seems like we agree after all, and that damn thing called communication got in the way for a while! I had a fairly scary example of that several years ago when I took my step-daughter out for her first driving experience (not really a lesson, just how to get a car moving and follow a road). Within 200 yards of starting there was a T jumction that I wanted her to turn left at, so I started to say "turn left at the junction ahead". I got as far as "turn left" and she did - straight off the road into a ditch.
Her immediate reaction was "it wasn't me!" (she was a teenager) and my immediate reaction was "but you must have known what I meant!" (I was incredulous). On reflection, though, she had a point. Instructors always seem to start with "at the junction ahead, turn....", and I now know why! Her fault was in getting information (what I was saying) and using it to do something completely and obviously wrong. My fault was in failing to communicate in a way that would have made that impossible.
The point of that little digression is that, it seems to me, a lot of people on this thread are basically on the same page but most of us could maybe do with stopping to think if what we've just read might not be what we thought it was, and stopping again to think if what we're posting might be (reasonably) misunderstood.
Maybe that's where people like Reg score so highly - they've been communicating this stuff for so long and so effectively that they rarely fall into the trap of "you must have known what I meant".
MC Bodge said:
Advanced driving:
Driving in such a way that if everybody else did the same, the roads would flow more smoothly and all road users would be able to interact in a more harmonious way.
I quite like that. It's much like the 'driving is a team sport' idea. It does still leave unanswered the question of how a good driver should approach their encounters with others who are not driving in that manner though. I'm not sure Reg's OP really addressed that question either.Driving in such a way that if everybody else did the same, the roads would flow more smoothly and all road users would be able to interact in a more harmonious way.
Encountering co-operative people is the easy bit - it's pleasant, enjoyable and life-affirming. But not every encounter is like that. There are tailgaters who try to shove people out of the way on the motorway. There are people who don't switch main beam on at night. There are people who don't leave comfortable gaps in queues for overtakers. There are lots of ways people fail to drive in the manner MC Bodge describes and sometimes those encounters provide something of a dilemma for someone who is trying to drive in that manner.
Edited by SK425 on Monday 12th May 11:35
SK425 said:
[...] There are tailgaters who try to shove people out of the way on the motorway. There are people who don't switch main beam on at night. There are people who don't leave comfortable gaps in queues for overtakers. There are lots of ways people fail to drive in the manner MC Bodge describes and sometimes those encounters provide something of a dilemma for someone who is trying to drive in that manner.
I've always found the best (ie: least stressful and least damaging to my own enjoyment) way to deal is to give them the widest berth possible in the circumstances. Edited by SK425 on Monday 12th May 11:35
Sometimes that means getting past them at the first safe opportunity, sometimes it means simply dropping back and altering my own plan into a gentle "Sunday afternoon" bimble - just as you have to (because you have no choice if you want to stay relaxed) when you hit unexpected road works, heavy traffic, accidents, or other delays.
eta: Which brings up another point that i'd consider part of being "advanced". Planning on the road should include a willingness to completely change your plan if that becomes necessary. If that brisk drive down twisty A roads has to change into a gentle run out enjoying the sunshine then it's really not worth dying over.
Unless you're one of those emergency drivers with the blues on, it's incredibly rare that it'll be the end of the world if your plan for a high-speed hoon goes out the window!
Edited by Variomatic on Monday 12th May 11:52
Red Devil said:
There is a very simple solution to that problem, but I can't tell you otherwise everyone else will know.
And then we would be back to square one.
No, no - you're right. Keep that information to yourself.And then we would be back to square one.
We definitely don't want everyone moving to Sco...*ahem* London! Yes - that's it - we don't want everyone moving to London...
MC Bodge said:
The first thing to do to improve this forum would be to change the title to,
"Driving".
- ditch the " Advanced" word.
Good driving needs no label, syllabus, certificate or club tie
I've been thinking along the same lines. Although I think that the forum title should be "driving skills". The addition of the reference to skills would probably attract more people and I would like the remit of this forum to cover a broader range of driving skills than just road driving."Driving".
- ditch the " Advanced" word.
Good driving needs no label, syllabus, certificate or club tie
I've become a (very amateur) trackday enthusiast in the last couple of years, so it would be nice to discuss track skills, racing tachniques, rally driving, off-road skills, auto testing and other, broader aspects of car control and motorsport techniques.
I know these different disciplines are discussed elsewhere on PH, but it would be nice to have a broader forum just for driving skills of all kind - including road driving - to be discussed.
Any thoughts? Who is the mod on this forum? Should I PM them?
R_U_LOCAL said:
it would be nice to discuss track skills, racing tachniques, rally driving, off-road skills, auto testing and other, broader aspects of car control and motorsport techniques.
I know these different disciplines are discussed elsewhere on PH, but it would be nice to have a broader forum just for driving skills of all kind - including road driving - to be discussed.
Agreed. Such a forum might disappoint some, but it may have a broader appeal and encourage the involvement of more people who have something to offer.I know these different disciplines are discussed elsewhere on PH, but it would be nice to have a broader forum just for driving skills of all kind - including road driving - to be discussed.
It would be good if the forum could evolve from what sometimes appears to be 'fundamentalist puritan pedant's corner'.
SK425 said:
Encountering co-operative people is the easy bit - it's pleasant, enjoyable and life-affirming. But not every encounter is like that. There are tailgaters who try to shove people out of the way on the motorway. There are people who don't switch main beam on at night.
Round our way it seems to be more that people don't know how to turn their main beams off when cars approach from the other direction at night.Hi Martin,
That said, I would argue it isn't entirely possible to judge an overtake on whether it would come across as anti-social. On my motorbike on a NSL single carriageway, I can often come across a car ahead doing 40mph, which I'll overtake legally and safely. Does it look anti-social? Perhaps to some. Yet I've done nothing wrong.
Moreover, even my choice of clothing changes others' perceptions of what's anti-social! When I wore hi-viz bike clothing, I almost never got an adverse reaction from other road users. When wearing my Power Ranger leathers, I get lots of angry looks. When I've been out practising for my triennial RoSPA retest, and therefore riding 100% legally, I still get angry looks if dressed in race leathers. In short, what others perceive as anti-social doesn't just depend on how you drive or ride.
Martin A said:
I realise that I am often in the minority on this forum
Not necessarily. I've enjoyed your devil's advocacy. Moreover, I believe you've made a valid point. The history and origins of advanced driving in the UK caused the need to drive 'progressively'. Advanced driving in this country arose with the British police, whose operatonal duties necessitated fast (but safe) driving. Their operational need to be able to make fast, safe progress filtered down to civilian advanced motoring. Hence the emphasis on 'making progress' in civilian advanced driving today, irrespective of whether that's the right emphasis for civilian drivers. That said, I would argue it isn't entirely possible to judge an overtake on whether it would come across as anti-social. On my motorbike on a NSL single carriageway, I can often come across a car ahead doing 40mph, which I'll overtake legally and safely. Does it look anti-social? Perhaps to some. Yet I've done nothing wrong.
Moreover, even my choice of clothing changes others' perceptions of what's anti-social! When I wore hi-viz bike clothing, I almost never got an adverse reaction from other road users. When wearing my Power Ranger leathers, I get lots of angry looks. When I've been out practising for my triennial RoSPA retest, and therefore riding 100% legally, I still get angry looks if dressed in race leathers. In short, what others perceive as anti-social doesn't just depend on how you drive or ride.
Edited by SVS on Monday 12th May 19:18
When I was training for my ROSPA, I didn't go for one overtake because though safe and legal it would have meant crossing a chevroned area with a broken white line, and the instructor queried my decision.
'I though it might look aggressive' I explained to him (actually a police advanced instructor).
His response was
'Don't worry about that, some people think any overtake is aggressive'.
'I though it might look aggressive' I explained to him (actually a police advanced instructor).
His response was
'Don't worry about that, some people think any overtake is aggressive'.
Dr Jekyll said:
When I was training for my ROSPA, I didn't go for one overtake because though safe and legal it would have meant crossing a chevroned area with a broken white line, and the instructor queried my decision.
'I though it might look aggressive' I explained to him (actually a police advanced instructor).
His response was
'Don't worry about that, some people think any overtake is aggressive'.
I think I'd probably agree with him. That's what I was getting at before with the ides of trying to second-guess what prejudices and bonkers ideas other people might have. I just don't think it's worth worrying about.'I though it might look aggressive' I explained to him (actually a police advanced instructor).
His response was
'Don't worry about that, some people think any overtake is aggressive'.
Regardless of how unnecessary some internet waffler reckons your concern was though, concerned you were and so not overtaking was the right decision I'm sure.
SK425 said:
concerned you were and so not overtaking was the right decision I'm sure.
+1.On a related note, this third party perception article is worth a read
I too have a problem with the term 'advanced' driver, for all the reasons posted above. But for the sake of brevity I will use it.
R_U_Local - this post is long enough with the various dissections of 'unlikely to occour' events without inviting track day skills into it as well!......EeeeeeK.
Something I do think has been ignored amongst this whole debate is the term 'Assertive' driving. For long and weary I have detested the common term 'Defensive' driving. By driving assertively a driver makes other road users as aware of his/her presence and intentions as they are aware of others.
Nor are these made up techniques, they are accepted practises that are well considered, tried and tested and proven by generations of, principally, Police drivers. And whilst there is little debate on the techniques, there are always debates on circumstances.
One thing I will say that might encourage people to consider advanced driving courses with the likes of RoSPA, IAM, Diamond etc. is that they are usually hugely enjoyable. And whilst the trainers or observers are usually fairly prescriptive, the examination under a Police observer (with RoSPA at least) is usually altogether different. At the debrief you are encouraged to offer opinion and reasons for your actions and unlike the driving test, you can influence the observer on his/her decision with sound reasoning. There is of course no 'fail' as such, you are assessed on Gold, Silver or Bronze and you always come away with something to think about. Personally I will never achieve a Gold as there are some things I simply don't agree with, but I'm comfortable with that.
The track Vs. Road driving debate will rumble on however in my opinion, if you find it necessary to apply track learned car control techniques on the road you are on the limit with no room for error, not even someone els's. There is no need for 'heeling and toeing' or trail braking etc. on the road, you are simply encroaching on the last 5% of performance that should be reserved for the other idiot.
R_U_Local - this post is long enough with the various dissections of 'unlikely to occour' events without inviting track day skills into it as well!......EeeeeeK.
Something I do think has been ignored amongst this whole debate is the term 'Assertive' driving. For long and weary I have detested the common term 'Defensive' driving. By driving assertively a driver makes other road users as aware of his/her presence and intentions as they are aware of others.
Nor are these made up techniques, they are accepted practises that are well considered, tried and tested and proven by generations of, principally, Police drivers. And whilst there is little debate on the techniques, there are always debates on circumstances.
One thing I will say that might encourage people to consider advanced driving courses with the likes of RoSPA, IAM, Diamond etc. is that they are usually hugely enjoyable. And whilst the trainers or observers are usually fairly prescriptive, the examination under a Police observer (with RoSPA at least) is usually altogether different. At the debrief you are encouraged to offer opinion and reasons for your actions and unlike the driving test, you can influence the observer on his/her decision with sound reasoning. There is of course no 'fail' as such, you are assessed on Gold, Silver or Bronze and you always come away with something to think about. Personally I will never achieve a Gold as there are some things I simply don't agree with, but I'm comfortable with that.
The track Vs. Road driving debate will rumble on however in my opinion, if you find it necessary to apply track learned car control techniques on the road you are on the limit with no room for error, not even someone els's. There is no need for 'heeling and toeing' or trail braking etc. on the road, you are simply encroaching on the last 5% of performance that should be reserved for the other idiot.
DreadUK said:
The track Vs. Road driving debate will rumble on however in my opinion, if you find it necessary to apply track learned car control techniques on the road you are on the limit with no room for error, not even someone els's. There is no need for 'heeling and toeing' or trail braking etc. on the road, you are simply encroaching on the last 5% of performance that should be reserved for the other idiot.
OK, I'll rumble a bit 
I don't think it's techniques you need to worry about. I'm not sure I'd even classify different manners of operating the controls as 'track techniques' or 'road techniques' - I don't think that's meaningful. The way to come unstuck - the way to end up with no room for errors, not even someone else's - is to bring track driving objectives onto the road.
Coming to this thread four pages in, let me return to Mr Local’s original invitation to add our thoughts on what is “advanced” driving (and yes, I also agree that the term is not helpful).
For me, a key ingredient is the enjoyment of driving. I enjoy the physical sense of controlling a vehicle – the acceleration, braking, cornering, changing gear, etc. and I also enjoy the mental process of managing my progress from A to B – dealing with the traffic, the junctions, the hills and the corners – in fact everything that makes up the journey. I positively look forward to long drives, especially when travelling solo, and while colleagues travel by train, I drive.
If I’m any good as a driver, I think the fact that I enjoy the whole business of driving has a lot to do with it. Because I enjoy it, I want to try to do it well and I’m constantly self critical (I know, I have a lot to be critical about…). This was inculcated from the start of my driving career when the L plates went up on the family car. It became habitual for my two older brothers and I, plus Dad, to offer a running critique of everything we did behind the wheel. It formed a habit that stuck although I have to say that my wife has never understood it!
Many, perhaps most drivers, don’t seem to share this enjoyment and in my view that makes the task of encouraging them to continue to improve their skills an uphill struggle. And unfortunately, our legislators have little choice other than to develop the rules and regulations that govern driving to meet the needs of the disinterested majority.
For me, a key ingredient is the enjoyment of driving. I enjoy the physical sense of controlling a vehicle – the acceleration, braking, cornering, changing gear, etc. and I also enjoy the mental process of managing my progress from A to B – dealing with the traffic, the junctions, the hills and the corners – in fact everything that makes up the journey. I positively look forward to long drives, especially when travelling solo, and while colleagues travel by train, I drive.
If I’m any good as a driver, I think the fact that I enjoy the whole business of driving has a lot to do with it. Because I enjoy it, I want to try to do it well and I’m constantly self critical (I know, I have a lot to be critical about…). This was inculcated from the start of my driving career when the L plates went up on the family car. It became habitual for my two older brothers and I, plus Dad, to offer a running critique of everything we did behind the wheel. It formed a habit that stuck although I have to say that my wife has never understood it!
Many, perhaps most drivers, don’t seem to share this enjoyment and in my view that makes the task of encouraging them to continue to improve their skills an uphill struggle. And unfortunately, our legislators have little choice other than to develop the rules and regulations that govern driving to meet the needs of the disinterested majority.
Crippo said:
I thought Advanced Drivers wore leather driving gloves and had a collection of AA or RAC metal badges attached to their radiator grill...after reading this bread I feel I may be correct in that assumption
If you've been reading this bread then you could at yeast have used your loaf and learned your baking distances.Crippo said:
I thought Advanced Drivers wore leather driving gloves and had a collection of AA or RAC metal badges attached to their radiator grill...after reading this bread I feel I may be correct in that assumption
Where in the thread are leather gloves and AA or RAC badges mentioned?Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff