We make the standards and we make the rules...

[monthefish]

DreadUK said:

If it's plod behind you, he shouldn't be that close,

If only that were true.

[SK425]

Jon1967x said:

Is there a feeling that the NSL can be taken less seriously than these red ringed limits?

I think there is, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's a historical hangover from before so many fun roads were reduced from NSL, or an even more historical hangover from when, outside of red ringed limits, there was no speed limit. It doesn't make much sense to me these days though.

[LordGrover]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Is it ever ok for an advanced driver to break the rules?
...
You be the judge.

Yes. Given the scenarios you presented I think many of us would agree with your thought process, plan and implementation.
The problems arise when 'we' do it as a matter of course, with no thought or planning.

[johnao]

SK425 said:

Jon1967x said:

Is there a feeling that the NSL can be taken less seriously than these red ringed limits?

I think there is, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's a historical hangover from before so many fun roads were reduced from NSL, or an even more historical hangover from when, outside of red ringed limits, there was no speed limit. It doesn't make much sense to me these days though.

Maybe it's because red ring speed limits are targeted at specific, hazardous, situations where there is a strong possibility, indeed probability, that a driver may come into conflict with pedestrians and other road users; whereas the NSL is regarded as a blanket arbitrary upper limit, imposed on us by a body made up of people who are life's prefects whose mission is to tell us what to do and what not to do, that may, on some roads, be unnecessarily low given a lack of hazards, or potential hazards thereon.

Just a thought.

[R_U_LOCAL]

Speed limits are an interesting subject (well, relatively anyway - I don't think you'll pick up many young ladies (or gentlemen, depending on your preferences) by demonstrating a comprehensive knowledge of the history of speed limits in the UK).

Wikipedia has a nice section on the history of speed limits here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_speed_limits_in_...

Some highlights? Well, between 1930 and 1935 there was no speed limit for cars and motorcycles whatsoever. and during that time, road casualties fell by nearly 800 per year.

In 1935, a 30mph limit was introduced in built-up areas, but everywhere else remained free from any speed limits. At this time, I understand that the white circle/black diagonal line sign which we now recognise as an NSL sign was first introduced, but back then it was used to indicate the end of a built-up area and the start of a "de-restricted" or more correctly, an "unrestricted" section of road.

On the Isle of Man, these signs still have this meaning.

1935 also saw the start of police driver training and the development, firstly by Sir Malcolm Campbell and then further by the Earl of Cottenham, of a "system of car control" and the early stages of Roadcraft. Police training, and especially advanced police training, made full use of unrestricted roads and their lack of speed limits to train advanced students in higher speed driving. In built-up areas, however, police drivers were expected to set a good example and comply with the 30mph limit.

The national speed limt was introduced as an experimental measure in 1965 and then permanently in 1967. When introduced, all previously unrestricted sections of roads, including motorways, dual carriageways and single carriageways were subject to a 70mph limit.

The national speed limit has varied since it's introduction - the oil crisis in 1973 saw it dropped to 50mph (apart from motorways), and then finally set at 60mph on single carriageways and 70mph on dual carriageways and motorways in 1977.

Throughout this time, and up to the present day, the police have trained drivers at speeds above the national speed limit, but within the "red ringed" limits.

Police driver training has for a long time set the standard for civilian advanced training and this crossover has probably led to the commonly held opinion that it's more acceptable to exceed national speed limits than those in built-up areas.

In theory, the Government had it right all the way back in 1930. If everyone drove according to the hazards and risks present at the time, there would be no need for speed limits. Unfortunately, life isn't that simple, is it?

[Blakewater]

SK425 said:

Jon1967x said:

Is there a feeling that the NSL can be taken less seriously than these red ringed limits?

I think there is, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's a historical hangover from before so many fun roads were reduced from NSL, or an even more historical hangover from when, outside of red ringed limits, there was no speed limit. It doesn't make much sense to me these days though.

On roads where the NSL has recently been applied you will sometimes see red ringed 60mph or 70mph signs. The A683 into Heysham springs to mind, Google Streetview doesn't have a new enough image to show it as it is now. The limit was actually increased from 50mph to 60mph when most speed limit changes saw reductions. Instead of NSL signs going up, red ringed 60mph signs went up. I guess it's a way of saying, "You can do 10mph more, but not go as fast as you like. 60mph means 60mph.

So many NSL roads have been reduced to 50mph though, that gets treated with as much flexibility as the NSL does. I've seen people on here recently say braking 30mph and 40mph limits is a no, no but 50mph and NSL are fair game. I see plenty of speed traps on NSL roads though, especially at the weekend when they're after bikers.

I was reading something on the IAM website about 20mph limits covering specific roads and 20mph zones where the whole of a residential area is covered by a 20mph limit. Is there actually a difference defined in law and in how they can be enforced?

Edited by Blakewater on Tuesday 20th May 19:58

[vonhosen]

Blakewater said:

I was reading something on the IAM website about 20mph limits covering specific roads and 20mph zones where the whole of a residential area is covered by a 20mph limit. Is there actually a difference defined in law and in how they can be enforced?

Yep 20mph zones are supposed to be self enforcing (i.e. they'll have traffic calming measures such as speed humps, alternately opposed priority traffic etc).
20mph limits require traditional enforcement as other limits do.

[SK425]

johnao said:

Maybe it's because red ring speed limits are targeted at specific, hazardous, situations where there is a strong possibility, indeed probability, that a driver may come into conflict with pedestrians and other road users; whereas the NSL is regarded as a blanket arbitrary upper limit, imposed on us by a body made up of people who are life's prefects whose mission is to tell us what to do and what not to do, that may, on some roads, be unnecessarily low given a lack of hazards, or potential hazards thereon.

Point is, that bold bit applies just as much to plenty of red ring limits too. I don't see that there's anything special about NSL in that regard.

[Jon1967x]

I understood the most dangerous roads in the country measured by KSI were those under the NSL in rural areas.

I also imagine if the worst happened in a 30 limit it is more likely to be somebody outside the car who gets hurt (eg pedestrian) whereas under a NSL it's the people in the car (head on smash) It would be an interesting psyche where we're prepared to take a proportionally higher risk with our own lives (speeding In a 60) than with others (not speeding in a 30) which probably suggests we just feel the NSL is a totally arbitrary limit and nothing to do with risk or safety.

[SK425]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Throughout this time, and up to the present day, the police have trained drivers at speeds above the national speed limit, but within the "red ringed" limits.

What am I misunderstanding there? Police drivers (when required) are not bound by red ring limits any more than NSL. Surely in their training they exceed all sorts of speed limits, not just NSL?

[g3org3y]

R_U_LOCAL said:

The last 500 yards of the 30mph limit area are different though. There are no houses, entrances or other hazards, the road is open with a clear view ahead (albeit on a long, open right-hander), and the vast majority of drivers and riders completely ignore the 30 limit on this section and accelerate early up to and beyond the national speed limit.

Sounds like the perfect place for a speed trap and exactly the situation I've seen a few time on my drives up to Scotland.

R_U_LOCAL said:

The original post in this thread was a reaction to the myth that being an "advanced" driver requires rigid and unquestioning adherence to every single rule on every single occasion. That sometimes, on occasion, it may be considered appropriate to go outside the relevant legislation if you've assessed all the risks and kept them to a minimum.

I'm in agreement with this. However, afaik, there's no section to write this on NIPs received in the post.

[R_U_LOCAL]

SK425 said:

R_U_LOCAL said:

Throughout this time, and up to the present day, the police have trained drivers at speeds above the national speed limit, but within the "red ringed" limits.

What am I misunderstanding there? Police drivers (when required) are not bound by red ring limits any more than NSL. Surely in their training they exceed all sorts of speed limits, not just NSL?

Not very much, no. A standard or advanced student will fail the course if they exceed red ring speed limits on test. Don't forget - those speed limits are there for very specific reasons. There are less actual and potential hazards on a national speed limit road than there are in more built-up areas.

During emergency response "blues and twos" training, speed is capped at a maximum of 20mph over a posted speed limit. That's not to say that operational officers do not have an absolute exemption from speed limits - they do when appropriate, but for training purposes the 20mph cap is more than enough.

[vonhosen]

R_U_LOCAL said:

SK425 said:

R_U_LOCAL said:

Throughout this time, and up to the present day, the police have trained drivers at speeds above the national speed limit, but within the "red ringed" limits.

What am I misunderstanding there? Police drivers (when required) are not bound by red ring limits any more than NSL. Surely in their training they exceed all sorts of speed limits, not just NSL?

Not very much, no. A standard or advanced student will fail the course if they exceed red ring speed limits on test. Don't forget - those speed limits are there for very specific reasons. There are less actual and potential hazards on a national speed limit road than there are in more built-up areas.

During emergency response "blues and twos" training, speed is capped at a maximum of 20mph over a posted speed limit. That's not to say that operational officers do not have an absolute exemption from speed limits - they do when appropriate, but for training purposes the 20mph cap is more than enough.

Not all forces run a 20mph cap in ringed limits for training though on blues & twos.
50mph limits are also treated as NSL by many forces now.

[7db]

vonhosen said:

Not all forces run a 20mph cap in ringed limits for training though on blues & twos.
50mph limits are also treated as NSL by many forces now.

Ah - the "Oxfordshire 50". Destroying the credibility of red ring limits everywhere.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

I think you mean the 'South Gloucestershire 50', surely the new standard in limit-setting idiocy:



(Streeview image taken before the limit was lowered)

[7db]

Hazard lines presumably for the hazard behind the camera.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Yes, but it's hardly a serious bend: http://goo.gl/maps/fBY4l

[Blakewater]

To be pedantic, I imagine they're for the blind dip you can see ahead. I don't overtake where I can't see tarmac because it could be a shallow dip or enough to hide a convoy of HGVs. I can see no need for a 50mph limit on there. I imagine perhaps a high number of kamikaze bikers have killed themselves over the years and added to the statistics that have been used to justify the speed limit drop. Apparently another road near where I live is being considered for a drop from NSL to 50mph because of accidents with people running the red light at a junction part way along it, which isn't really specifically to do with the speed limit.

[Red Devil]

Blakewater said:

On roads where the NSL has recently been applied you will sometimes see red ringed 60mph or 70mph signs. The A683 into Heysham springs to mind, Google Streetview doesn't have a new enough image to show it as it is now. The limit was actually increased from 50mph to 60mph when most speed limit changes saw reducs tions. Instead of NSL signs going up, red ringed 60mph signs went up. I guess it's a way of saying, "You can do 10mph more, but not go as fast as you like. 60mph means 60mph.

Red ringed 70mph signs are very rare in E&W. They are only to be found on non-motorway special roads (see here for the reason why). One well known example is the A55 Colwyn Bay Bypass which has similar restrictions to a motorway for certain classes of traffic. A similar example in Scotland is the A720 Edinburgh City Bypass.

I have seen a number of 60mph signs in Scotland on two lane roads. In particular on the A9. I don't recall any in E&W though, so I'm intrigued by your mention of the A683. The section into Heysham is not a d/c nor AFAIK a special road, so I would be interested to know under what regulation, if any, the LA has erected them.

[Orillion]

vonhosen said:

Yep 20mph zones are supposed to be self enforcing (i.e. they'll have traffic calming measures such as speed humps, alternately opposed priority traffic etc).
20mph limits require traditional enforcement as other limits do.

This is a twenty zone near me. There is no traffic calming.

http://goo.gl/maps/Y6YRD

Edited by Orillion on Thursday 22 May 09:03