We make the standards and we make the rules...
Discussion
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Yes, but it's hardly a serious bend: http://goo.gl/maps/fBY4l
As someone suggested above, I suspect we can thank a few suicidal/kamikaze yoofs for the 50. A little further along is a busy stables so it's wise to take it steady there despite it being a nice series of bends. IIRC as you get nearer to Castle Combe they've introduced a 40 limit too. 
I'm a little confused by the OP's perception that drivers that wish to overtake him shortly before the end of a 30 limit are unlikely to get up to 60 in the subsequent NSL section.
My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
The opposing view is that while obeying a 30 limit you will have people desperate to pass you then do 50 in a 60 limit.
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
The opposing view is that while obeying a 30 limit you will have people desperate to pass you then do 50 in a 60 limit.
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Thursday 22 May 21:25
Red Devil said:
Red ringed 70mph signs are very rare in E&W. They are only to be found on non-motorway special roads (see here for the reason why). One well known example is the A55 Colwyn Bay Bypass which has similar restrictions to a motorway for certain classes of traffic. A similar example in Scotland is the A720 Edinburgh City Bypass.
I have seen a number of 60mph signs in Scotland on two lane roads. In particular on the A9. I don't recall any in E&W though, so I'm intrigued by your mention of the A683. The section into Heysham is not a d/c nor AFAIK a special road, so I would be interested to know under what regulation, if any, the LA has erected them.
Here's one I can show you on Google Streetview. The A558 Daresbury Expressway. It's 60mph all the way and most of it is dual carriageway with two lanes each way. I imagine it probably has been NSL in the past and then reduced, but I don't recall it. The 60mph signs on the single carriageway bit are probably just for the sake of consistency and ensuring people don't miss 60mph signs on the dual carriageway bits and assume they can do 70mph there.I have seen a number of 60mph signs in Scotland on two lane roads. In particular on the A9. I don't recall any in E&W though, so I'm intrigued by your mention of the A683. The section into Heysham is not a d/c nor AFAIK a special road, so I would be interested to know under what regulation, if any, the LA has erected them.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.344825,-2.635312,3...
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm a little confused by the OP's perception that drivers that wish to overtake him shortly before the end of a 30 limit are unlikely to get up to 60 in the subsequent NSL section.
My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
The opposing view is that while obeying a 30 limit you will have people desperate to pass you then do 50 in a 60 limit.
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Maybe he wants to do more than 60 in the nsl. Maybe it is a section of twisties that he knows he will be quicker round and they will spoil his fun and halt his progress. The opportunity to re overtake may be a few miles away. I know Reg says in his first post that he does not have a problem with leap frogging back past someone who has just overtaken him, but I worry that other drivers may see this as aggressive driving as a competitive reaction to them overtaking previously. It is in a lot of ways safer to avoid the whole situation by increasing speed in the 30. It does not have to be full bore, just a few extra miles per hour, combined with a move towards the white line to block the cars behind view a little and assert your position in the road ahead of them.My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
The opposing view is that while obeying a 30 limit you will have people desperate to pass you then do 50 in a 60 limit.
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Thursday 22 May 21:25
I do 30 in 30s for a couple of reasons, firstly it is where there are most likely to be speed traps. Secondly, like all driving it is a based upon a risk assessment, weighing up the chance of something bad happening, combined with the severity of the consequences (both for me and any victim) if something bad does happen. In a 30 the obstructions to your visibility can be very close to the road (or on it), and the population density of humans is higher too. No matter how much of a god like driver you are, or how good your brakes, if you are doing 100mph in a 30 and a kid steps out from behind a low wall and a car is coming the other way you will run out of options very quickly and kill the kid.
Now, getting back on topic here regarding rules and breaking them, if you done that same 100mph along a country road with unlimited visibility towards the horizon, no ditches or hedgerows, and low flat fields either side of you so you know that you could not physically come into contact with another human because you can see for miles that it is clear are you advanced enough to make that decision? Either as a good driver, or a good assessor of risk, or even both.
I think the important thing is Reg shows in his first post that he is clearly aware and selective decides to break rules. People who habitually break rules without comprehension are the problem. I know a lot of being an 'advanced driver' is to show a willingness to continue learning and on here people try and be humble about it not arrogant. However, like I've just said people who habitually break rules are dangerous, perhaps there is an argument that people who habitually follow all rules without comprehension are also a problem. Being a little bit arrogant, is a trained police driver, or a racing driver, or a very good enthusiast allowed to think, I am better than the lowest common denominator from which these rules are decided, so I will decide to follow them or not based upon my ability, not that of an 85 year old blind person, or a 17 year old dizzy girl, or quite frankly 90% of the drivers on the road. Just don't come a cropper doing it!
I understand the law has to be absolute and apply equally, but in the instances given I would not look on the OP as a bad person, or someone I would not want to share the roads with.
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm a little confused by the OP's perception that drivers that wish to overtake him shortly before the end of a 30 limit are unlikely to get up to 60 in the subsequent NSL section.
You've never noticed monospeeders, or encountered a member of the '45mph everywhere' club? In any case, the point wasn't whether or not they'd achieve 60, but that they would be going slower than the OP would choose.Oddly, the kind of people that wouldn't hold the OP up in a NSL would be very unlikely to try to pass him before the limit change
Johnnytheboy said:
My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
Not as often as you'd think, in my experience.Johnnytheboy said:
...
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Is there anything wrong with that? (Apart from the fact that 2nd would get the job done quicker.)These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Craig85 said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm a little confused by the OP's perception that drivers that wish to overtake him shortly before the end of a 30 limit are unlikely to get up to 60 in the subsequent NSL section.
My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
The opposing view is that while obeying a 30 limit you will have people desperate to pass you then do 50 in a 60 limit.
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Maybe he wants to do more than 60 in the nsl.My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
The opposing view is that while obeying a 30 limit you will have people desperate to pass you then do 50 in a 60 limit.
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Thursday 22 May 21:25
My thoughts and comments on speed and speeding are contained in a previous post here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm a little confused by the OP's perception that drivers that wish to overtake him shortly before the end of a 30 limit are unlikely to get up to 60 in the subsequent NSL section.
You've never noticed monospeeders, or encountered a member of the '45mph everywhere' club? In any case, the point wasn't whether or not they'd achieve 60, but that they would be going slower than the OP would choose.Oddly, the kind of people that wouldn't hold the OP up in a NSL would be very unlikely to try to pass him before the limit change
Johnnytheboy said:
My experience would be that the more keen they are to overtake, the faster they will go overall.
Not as often as you'd think, in my experience.Johnnytheboy said:
...
These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
Is there anything wrong with that? (Apart from the fact that 2nd would get the job done quicker.)These people exist, but rarely. Thankfully as rare as people who wait until the NSL sign then floor it in 3rd.
A. I have encountered monospeeders but they tend to be the least likely to overtake other cars.
B. The flooring it at the limit sign thing is very 'advanced driving' but can come across as competitive/aggressive (if someone I've just followed through a 30 limit then hoofs it at the NSL sign I can't avoid the impression they are trying to tell me something. I'll never know, but I can't imagine they do it on an empty road).
I'm not going to follow RU Locals link to his attitude on speed limits now as I have to go to work and it's probably quite wordy, but my attitude to selective speed limit adherence can be summed up in one word: hypocrisy.
Johnnytheboy said:
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm a little confused by the OP's perception that drivers that wish to overtake him shortly before the end of a 30 limit are unlikely to get up to 60 in the subsequent NSL section.
You've never noticed monospeeders, or encountered a member of the '45mph everywhere' club? In any case, the point wasn't whether or not they'd achieve 60, but that they would be going slower than the OP would choose.I find that many drivers do not want to go as fast as me once outside the built up area. Therefore, if someone is behind me as we approach the NSL, I'd prefer that's where they stay even if they've been wanting to go faster than me through the built up area, as I believe it is likely that they would hold me up in the NSL if they were in front. If it turns out that's not the case, I'll know soon enough as they'll have kept up with me in the NSL and I can look to get them past and in front at that point.
Johnnytheboy said:
B. The flooring it at the limit sign thing is very 'advanced driving' but can come across as competitive/aggressive (if someone I've just followed through a 30 limit then hoofs it at the NSL sign I can't avoid the impression they are trying to tell me something. I'll never know, but I can't imagine they do it on an empty road).
Why do you think that? I can't speak for anyone else but personally, plenty of throttle on entering the NSL is not uncommon and the presence or absence of someone behind has nothing to do with it. I wonder how it could have?Johnnytheboy said:
I'm not going to follow RU Locals link to his attitude on speed limits now as I have to go to work and it's probably quite wordy, but my attitude to selective speed limit adherence can be summed up in one word: hypocrisy.
I don't think that's the right word. If we're talking about a policy of adhering to red rings but taking liberties with NSL, I think the word for that is just 'inconsistent'.ETA: But even that policy is not what we're talking about, since the topic was specifically about exceeding the red ring limit prior to entering NSL. So perhaps even inconsistent is too strong.
Edited by SK425 on Friday 23 May 09:19
Johnnytheboy said:
but my attitude to [those who choose] selective speed limit adherence can be summed up in one word: hypocrisy.
Is hypocrisy the correct word in this instance? ... the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.I don't think that's quite what you had in mind, but, I could be wrong.
johnao said:
Is hypocrisy the correct word in this instance? ... the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
I don't think that's quite what you had in mind, but, I could be wrong.
I'm not sure actually - if you're claiming the moral high ground because you only speed in NSL compared with someone who speeds everywhere then that could be considered hypocritical. In legal terms you're as bad as each other.I don't think that's quite what you had in mind, but, I could be wrong.
StressedDave said:
I'm not sure actually - if you're claiming the moral high ground because you only speed in NSL compared with someone who speeds everywhere then that could be considered hypocritical.
I don't think anyone has yet made that claim on here; hence my posting.StressedDave said:
In legal terms you're as bad as each other.
Of course. But, if one accepts that as being so, then one can't be accused of being hypocritical because no moral high-ground is being claimed.johnao said:
Johnnytheboy said:
but my attitude to [those who choose] selective speed limit adherence can be summed up in one word: hypocrisy.
Is hypocrisy the correct word in this instance? ... the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.I don't think that's quite what you had in mind, but, I could be wrong.
If you happen to think the safe speed to travel in every speed limit you choose to obey is - by a staggering coincidence - exactly the speed limit, then you are not being hypocritical.
If you just decide that some levels of limit - 30 for example - are to be obeyed just because of what they are, and yet others can be ignored, then you are.
Particularly if you are bothered by others' choice of which limits to obey.
Johnnytheboy said:
I suppose the correct use of the word hypocrisy would depend on the reasons for obeying the limits that you choose to obey.
If you happen to think the safe speed to travel in every speed limit you choose to obey is - by a staggering coincidence - exactly the speed limit, then you are not being hypocritical.
If you just decide that some levels of limit - 30 for example - are to be obeyed just because of what they are, and yet others can be ignored, then you are.
I disagree. Hypocrisy is about pretending to be what one is not; exhibiting the pretence of having virtues that one doesn't actually posses; one whose actions are in conflict with the moral values they espouse.If you happen to think the safe speed to travel in every speed limit you choose to obey is - by a staggering coincidence - exactly the speed limit, then you are not being hypocritical.
If you just decide that some levels of limit - 30 for example - are to be obeyed just because of what they are, and yet others can be ignored, then you are.
What I think you are referring to is being deliberately selective in which laws to obey and which ones to disobey, [I can't bring to mind a specific word that describes that condition, but it's not hypocrisy]. That choice doesn't make one a hypocrite, merely selective in one's choice of compliance. One would only be a hypocrite, in the sense that you mean, if one deliberately chose to disregard certain speed limits whilst at the same time saying that one always complied with them.
Anyway, that's my understanding of the accepted use of the word. Everyone else is of course free to disagree.
Interesting topic(s).
Overtaking cyclists/slow moving vehicles - judgment is required. Crossing solid white lines is to be avoided where visibility is very limited, but then again, that would be true if the lines were not solid.... I would consider passing the cyclist if it was safe to do so, regardless of the lines.
Overtaking cyclists/slow moving vehicles - judgment is required. Crossing solid white lines is to be avoided where visibility is very limited, but then again, that would be true if the lines were not solid.... I would consider passing the cyclist if it was safe to do so, regardless of the lines.
Speed limits are a very blunt instrument.
The biggest risk in exceeding them, given otherwise attentive driving, is probably prosecution.
I believe in sticking to residential and other sensible limits. I don't often do as much as 30mph on my local suburb, although others appear to and many take the blind corner in my road at speed, in the middle of the road...
NSL / pseudo NSL roads are different. Speed limits are often just an arbitrary number. Sight lines and conditions are key. Keeping the speed down on long straights is mostly to prevent being apprehended by the law.
The biggest risk in exceeding them, given otherwise attentive driving, is probably prosecution.
I believe in sticking to residential and other sensible limits. I don't often do as much as 30mph on my local suburb, although others appear to and many take the blind corner in my road at speed, in the middle of the road...
NSL / pseudo NSL roads are different. Speed limits are often just an arbitrary number. Sight lines and conditions are key. Keeping the speed down on long straights is mostly to prevent being apprehended by the law.
The problem is, speed limits have been tinkered about with and altered over the years for a variety of different reasons.
Up until the 1960s there was no NSL. As was said before, the NSL sign actually meant the road was unrestricted and you really could use your own judgement quite legally as to how fast was safe according to the skill level you at least believed you had. The reason the NSL is treated with flexibility is because it's a blanket speed limit that doesn't take into consideration the wide variety of roads it covers and the different kinds of hazards along them.
More recently, we've had the Government Speed Limit Review which has seen many speed limits drop to levels which many drivers feel are too low for the roads. NSL roads have become 50mph limits, including many of those in Reg's overtaking video, and other speed limits have come down as well. Councils have gone further than the advice given in the review regarding what speed limits should be in place for different road types and have dropped limits further and on more roads than the advice says they ought to. The review is based on accident rates and statistics regarding how likely people are to live or die in accidents at different speeds. It doesn't really take into account the ability of a driver using good attention and observation skills to negotiate a road safely at 60mph or more.
Of course, plenty of people think they're good enough to exceed the speed limit and a lot of them aren't safe at any speed. You could argue it's a cocky thing to believe about oneself. However, what we're talking about here is judging individual situations and whether it's prudent to exceed the limit to avoid the risk posed by other drivers wanting to go faster and the inconvenience they may present further down the road. Does the risk of exceeding the limit outweigh the risk of abiding by it? The law isn't black and white in reality and everyone will have different ideas about breaking it and different justifications for doing so.
Up until the 1960s there was no NSL. As was said before, the NSL sign actually meant the road was unrestricted and you really could use your own judgement quite legally as to how fast was safe according to the skill level you at least believed you had. The reason the NSL is treated with flexibility is because it's a blanket speed limit that doesn't take into consideration the wide variety of roads it covers and the different kinds of hazards along them.
More recently, we've had the Government Speed Limit Review which has seen many speed limits drop to levels which many drivers feel are too low for the roads. NSL roads have become 50mph limits, including many of those in Reg's overtaking video, and other speed limits have come down as well. Councils have gone further than the advice given in the review regarding what speed limits should be in place for different road types and have dropped limits further and on more roads than the advice says they ought to. The review is based on accident rates and statistics regarding how likely people are to live or die in accidents at different speeds. It doesn't really take into account the ability of a driver using good attention and observation skills to negotiate a road safely at 60mph or more.
Of course, plenty of people think they're good enough to exceed the speed limit and a lot of them aren't safe at any speed. You could argue it's a cocky thing to believe about oneself. However, what we're talking about here is judging individual situations and whether it's prudent to exceed the limit to avoid the risk posed by other drivers wanting to go faster and the inconvenience they may present further down the road. Does the risk of exceeding the limit outweigh the risk of abiding by it? The law isn't black and white in reality and everyone will have different ideas about breaking it and different justifications for doing so.
Zeeky said:
The Op asks if he is a bad person for exceeding the 30 mph speed limit but doesn't seem bothered about breaking the NSL. Is this really a question for general consideration? If the OP is happy to break the NSL he shouldn't need moral support in breaking the 30 mph limit.
That's a fairly simplistic view.As somebody probably said once,
"Show me somebody who never speeds and I'll show you a liar, possibly on a very high horse"
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