Indicating when changing lanes - do you?

[AW111]

I habitally indicate unless there's a reason not too.
The logic is simple - if I have somehow missed a car or bike behind me / in blind spot / whatever, at least they will get some warning of my intentions. It is actually returning to the left lane that is worst, when you get idiots trying high-speed undertakes.

I don't plan on not seeing other vehicles, but the van has a pretty big blind spot down the nearside, and with the boat behind it's worse, so why not play safe?

[Dr Jekyll]

You play safe by checking your blindspot, not by relying on indicators to protect you. If the move isn't safe without an indicator it's not safe with one.

[AW111]

Dr Jekyll said:

You play safe by checking your blindspot, not by relying on indicators to protect you. If the move isn't safe without an indicator it's not safe with one.

I do check blind spots, of course, but indicate as well.

[Cyder]

Dr Jekyll said:

You play safe by checking your blindspot, not by relying on indicators to protect you. If the move isn't safe without an indicator it's not safe with one.

But it still has to be safer, it gives the person behind who you haven't spotted the opportunity to react and hit the brakes as they realise what you're doing.

[ismellburning]

Cyder said:

But it still has to be safer, it gives the person behind who you haven't spotted the opportunity to react and hit the brakes as they realise what you're doing.

This is my point about indicating where it's appropriate, though. If there's closing traffic in the lane you're about to move into, you indicate.

If your manoeuvre won't cause anyone else to change speed or direction, or indeed won't be seen by anyone else, you don't.

[TheInsanity1234]

I would say if you're the only car on the motorway for about 30 miles, then maybe there's no need to indicate...

But yeah, moving back to L1, you shouldn't need to indicate, unless you're just about to go past a slip-road joining, then indicate, to let people who are joining know that you intend to take that space.

In busy traffic, you should indicate all the time, even when moving back to L1, just to guard yourself against those idiots who, as soon as you haven't moved over even though there's a car-length between yourself and the overtakee, move into the left lane and try to get past on the left.

[BusaMK]

ismellburning said:

If your manoeuvre won't cause anyone else to change speed or direction, or indeed won't be seen by anyone else, you don't.

Rephrased as - " If you think your manoeuvre won't cause anyone else to change speed or direction, or indeed you haven't noticed any other cars approaching"

It still isn't as safe as building up a habit of indicating and is based solely on your own judgment. Good drivers still make mistakes, If you don't see another car, you are giving them no warning when you change lanes.

Also ultimately you're still overtaking another car - and the more information you can give them on what your intentions are, the better.

[silverfoxcc]

ismellburning said:

Cyder said:

But it still has to be safer, it gives the person behind who you haven't spotted the opportunity to react and hit the brakes as they realise what you're doing.

This is my point about indicating where it's appropriate, though. If there's closing traffic in the lane you're about to move into, you indicate.

If your manoeuvre won't cause anyone else to change speed or direction, or indeed won't be seen by anyone else, you don't.

ISB

correct if i am wrong but i read your first para, as

'Although i see traffic coming up on me, i will pull out as i am indicating irrespective of the outcome'

I was told quite forcibly at the RR (Rolls Royce)driving schoolbefore they let us loose on the road with their product!!

'At all times when driving ask youself this

If the action i am ABOUT to commence, will affect any other driver altering their course, direction, or speed. Then it is either dangerous or very inadvisable'

After 35years of driving i started using that mantra, and By Christ it does help your driving observations and awareness of others

This mantra should be drummed into every learner driver even before they turn the key for the first time. It might just improve driving skills in the future

[ismellburning]

silverfoxcc said:

'Although i see traffic coming up on me, i will pull out as i am indicating irrespective of the outcome'

You are wrong

[7db]

silverfoxcc said:

If the action i am ABOUT to commence, will affect any other driver altering their course, direction, or speed. Then it is either dangerous or very inadvisable

No harm in seeking cooperation from another driver to help you out -- provided you are able to seek refuge if they choose not to. This point is made independently of priority.

[SK425]

BusaMK said:

It still isn't as safe as building up a habit of indicating and is based solely on your own judgment. Good drivers still make mistakes, If you don't see another car, you are giving them no warning when you change lanes.

I'm trying, with a little difficulty, to imagine the scenario where good observations could lead you to confidently, yet incorrectly, conclude that the absence of a signal would not cause a problem. It seems to me that that might be less plausible than the risk of habitual signalling leading to inadvertent complacency because, subconsciously, you feel protected by your habit and you unknowingly let your observation and rearward situational awareness slip.

I can completely see how poor observation combined with no signalling could lead to problems, but the solution to that is not more signalling.

[AW111]

I have done a certain amount of safety training, and one thing they stressed was that most accidents have multiple causes, ie

Indicate + change lanes without observing -> other car takes action : no accident
Observe other car and change lanes when safe (without indicating) : no accident
Don't see other car and change lanes without indicating : potential accident

In other words, making a habit of indicating lessens the risk. What is the downside?

[spitfire4v8]

Surely safe driving is about collecting information from around you, and giving information to those around you.
Just because you've made an effort to see who's around doesn't mean you haven't missed something / someone.
For this reason I indicate even when I believe no-one is there to benefit.
I have certainly made errors with my driving in the past, I'd like to minimise them in the future.

[Strangely Brown]

AW111 said:

In other words, making a habit of indicating lessens the risk. What is the downside?

The downside is that making it a "habit" rather than a conscious decision increases the likelihood that you will omit the observation that forms that basis of that decision - that's just human nature.

Indicate if someone will benefit or indicate unless there is a reason not to are good maxims but both require the observation to establish the "reason" for the signal, or not. A "habit" is less likely to have that step.

[AW111]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how making a habit of flicking the indicator stalk before changing lanes has anything to to with not observing?

[Strangely Brown]

AW111 said:

I'm sorry, but I don't see how making a habit of flicking the indicator stalk before changing lanes has anything to to with not observing?

Do you understand the difference between "habit" and "conscious decision"?

Perhaps you are using a different definition of "habit"? When I refer to something as a "habit", I am referring to a semi-automatic, maybe even subconscious action that has no thought behind it. In some cases the person doesn't even know that they are doing it. This is what many drivers do. They turn the wheel, they move the little stick. Many have no idea to whom they are signalling, or why, or even if there is anyone there at all. *That's* the problem. They are NOT thinking about what they are doing.

[SK425]

AW111 said:

I have done a certain amount of safety training, and one thing they stressed was that most accidents have multiple causes, ie

Indicate + change lanes without observing -> other car takes action : no accident
Observe other car and change lanes when safe (without indicating) : no accident
Don't see other car and change lanes without indicating : potential accident

In other words, making a habit of indicating lessens the risk. What is the downside?

I don't think your analysis is quite right. If you change lanes without looking, indicating is no guarantee of avoiding the accident (otherwise no observation would be necessary). The other driver might or might not take sufficient action to avoid the accident. So your list should have been:

Indicate + change lanes without observing : potential accident
Observe other car and change lanes when safe (without indicating) : no accident
Don't see other car and change lanes without indicating : potential accident

Strangely Brown has just pointed out the potential downside of making it a habit in terms of observation. I mentioned it a few posts up too. There's a similar potential downside in terms of effective communication. The communication isn't always just as simple as whether you signal or not. Sometimes the subtleties around timing - when do you start signalling, when do you stop, how long do you wait after signalling before moving, how long do you wait after starting to move before cancelling the signal etc. - are important. In the same way that making it a habit risks subconscious complacency in observation, it also risks subconsciously omitting the thinking that's necessary for effective communication.

All it takes to avoid these threats to observation and effective communication is rigorous discipline so that you don't let your habit breed complacency. But I am certain I would find that harder to fight off than the risk of not signalling when I should have done.

[LFAwhoosh]

Mirror, signal, manoeuvre is in the Highway Code and it is what other drivers expect you to do. Not indicating is being complacent, if you one day don't see a dark coloured car at night, and move straight across without indicating, you're having an accident at 70mph (or more). Looking, indicating, and then changing lanes has all the bases covered.

As another example - airline pilots have anti collision lights and a TCAS system to help avoid near misses. For example in a head on scenario, TCAS will exchange data between the two converging aircraft and instruct one pilot to dive and another to climb( to avoid them both deciding to go the same way).

A pilot who turned these systems off, claiming that they bred a habit of complacency and that pilots should look out the window more instead, wouldn't be 100% wrong, but I bet the non-indicating posters in this thread wouldn't feel safer on board his aeroplane on the way to Tenerife. He would be instantly grounded for safety reasons after he landed.

[0000]

I always indicate.

I do it because I want others to; many a driver pulls out in front of me without indicating. Some probably forget or don't look, some probably don't realise I'm probably approaching faster than they expect and I swear some see me approaching and rush a lane change just in case they have to wait milliseconds for me to pass. At which point I'm stuck behind them as they struggle to overtake the person in front doing as near as anyone can tell the same speed as them.

[Toltec]

Since no one else has mentioned it yet-

If you are going to indicate they need to be on for about three seconds, at least, before manoeuvring as it will take most drivers a couple of seconds to notice them.