Breaking the National Speed Limit

[Thirsty33]

R_U_LOCAL said:

My views on speed and NSLs in this old post here...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Top post! - If only we could rely on such pragmatism from all our BiB's.

All the road safety orgs have a problem though - they cannot be seen to condone breaking the law, however safe it can be, which going back to the original point makes me surprised that an observer would openly voice such a view. And this is the nub of the problem - all the published advice is that if you break a limit on an advanced test, you fail. But I have recently been advised that the examiner would rather you did an overtake and completed it cleanly even if it meant nudging over the NSL to get it done. Now it's what we all do in reality - it's counterintuitive to look at the dash/speed in the middle of an overtake so everyone will go over "from time to time". However good your planning and observation, taking your eye off the road at that time is more dangerous that keeping it on the road. But it's a conundrum that will never be resolved. I cannot ever see exceeding the NSL under any circumstances being formally accepted by parliament as a change to the law or as official policy of any road safety group.

One of the key points made in the linked thread mentions speeding for enjoyment and this is a key point - if you do it under stress of lateness, aggression or through inattention, it's bad. For me I feel more engaged if driving to the conditions rather than (say) an artificial ceiling on speed. But my view is that if you are driving fast enough to get a real adrenaline thrill you are probably going too fast, whatever the limit.

[Red Devil]

Then go where there are no limits. UK track day, German autobahn, Nurburgring. Sorted.

[p1esk]

SK425 said:

....highly anachronistic.

That describes me rather well. Thanks.

Best wishes all,
Derestricted Dave.

[Dr Jekyll]

Red Devil said:

Then go where there are no limits. UK track day, German autobahn, Nurburgring. Sorted.

What problem is that approach designed to solve?

[Blakewater]

It depends whether you get your thrill from being on the very edge of control or simply from driving quickly enough to have to put a bit of effort into getting round bends smoothly. The former isn't for a public road, however fast it is for the individual concerned.

[waremark]

Red Devil said:

Then go where there are no limits. UK track day, German autobahn, Nurburgring. Sorted.

Enormously expensive to get insurance for such outings. And not particularly relevant to this topic.

[Red Devil]

waremark said:

Red Devil said:

Then go where there are no limits. UK track day, German autobahn, Nurburgring. Sorted.

Enormously expensive to get insurance for such outings. And not particularly relevant to this topic.

I will concede that the 'Ring isn't exactly 'bargain basement' but I have never been asked to pay an additional premium to drive on a German autobahn. Nor, ime, is insurance for UK track days 'enormously expensive'. YMMV.

You may consider it's not particularly relevant but I beg to differ. If you want to go faster than the 60/70 UK NSL on a regular basis with no fear of any penalty being imposed then you have to go to places where it doesn't apply. In the UK I prefer to get my 140+ 'fixes' away from the public roads. If I'm going to have an 'off' I would rather do so on track (for example the wide open spaces at Bedford Autodrome) than become intimately acquainted with a tree.

[SK425]

Red Devil said:

You may consider it's not particularly relevant but I beg to differ. If you want to go faster than the 60/70 UK NSL on a regular basis with no fear of any penalty being imposed then you have to go to places where it doesn't apply.

Of course. But I think the point people are making is that the reason the NSL is frustrating might not be addressed by any of the things you suggest. For some, the frustration might simply be "I wanna go really really fast", and for them the things you suggest might help with that. For others, it might be completely different - for example, "I enjoy the process of road driving and I find the speed limit interferes with that enjoyment more than I would like". The 'process of road driving' is the continual adjustment of your speed to match traffic and hazard conditions until you reach your destination, and the speed limit interferes with that process any time you stop accelerating because of a speed limit, not because of a hazard. That frustration wouldn't be addressed at all by just going somewhere you can get a Vmax fix so, fun as that may be, I think it's irrelevant too.

[XJ Flyer]

Red Devil said:

waremark said:

Red Devil said:

Then go where there are no limits. UK track day, German autobahn, Nurburgring. Sorted.

Enormously expensive to get insurance for such outings. And not particularly relevant to this topic.

I have never been asked to pay an additional premium to drive on a German autobahn.

You may consider it's not particularly relevant but I beg to differ. If you want to go faster than the 60/70 UK NSL on a regular basis with no fear of any penalty being imposed then you have to go to places where it doesn't apply.

In general if something goes wrong at 140 mph + it will go wrong in a big way and it won't have a happy ending.However the case of the previous and remaining unlimited sections of autobahn show that it is a calculated risk which can be made to work at least as safely as the false sense of security provided by the UK 70 mph limit.

[XJ Flyer]

SK425 said:

The 'process of road driving' is the continual adjustment of your speed to match traffic and hazard conditions until you reach your destination, and the speed limit interferes with that process any time you stop accelerating because of a speed limit, not because of a hazard. That frustration wouldn't be addressed at all by just going somewhere you can get a Vmax fix so, fun as that may be, I think it's irrelevant too.

In general autobahn fun doesn't involve just sitting at a set speed.Acceleration is at least as important in that environment as v max.IE you will have to slow down for numerous different hazards and sweeping bends become tight corners as speeds increase.

[waremark]

XJ Flyer said:

Red Devil said:

waremark said:

Red Devil said:

Then go where there are no limits. UK track day, German autobahn, Nurburgring. Sorted.

Enormously expensive to get insurance for such outings. And not particularly relevant to this topic.

I have never been asked to pay an additional premium to drive on a German autobahn.

You may consider it's not particularly relevant but I beg to differ. If you want to go faster than the 60/70 UK NSL on a regular basis with no fear of any penalty being imposed then you have to go to places where it doesn't apply.

In general if something goes wrong at 140 mph + it will go wrong in a big way and it won't have a happy ending.However the case of the previous and remaining unlimited sections of autobahn show that it is a calculated risk which can be made to work at least as safely as the false sense of security provided by the UK 70 mph limit.

Sorry, I agree that there is no extra insurance premium to drive on an unlimited autobahn. However, that potential does not reduce the stress and frustration of obeying national speed limits in the UK. BTW, experienced a back tyre shredding at an indicated 150 at Bruntingthorpe and was able to slow and stop in a straight line.

[Dr Jekyll]

Red Devil said:

. In the UK I prefer to get my 140+ 'fixes' away from the public roads. If I'm going to have an 'off' I would rather do so on track (for example the wide open spaces at Bedford Autodrome) than become intimately acquainted with a tree.

If the NSL just prevented people from getting a "140+ fix" on the public road there wouldn't be any controversy. The point is that it affects people trying to drive quite reasonably. You may as well suggest that commuters fed up with slow tube trains should simply go to Japan and ride the bullet train.

[Pepperami]

Brand new to PH so please be kind to me.

I personally feel that the NSL is a bit archaic, and even they are ever decreasing in favour of 50 zones instead. However, I can see arguments for both sides.
Personally, I'm a current BiB advanced driver, so I know that on any particular stretch of road I can probably make very swift and safe progress with some overtakes that others may not have gone for. However there are also much better drivers than me out there who could make better progress. The flip side is that there are also some who are much worse. I agree with what has been mentioned previously about sticking to posted limits (30,40 etc) but I personally open the taps fairly wide if it's safe to do so on NSL roads. There are those who could smack into a tree in a straight line at 30 though and unfortunately the law is designed to save these people from their own stupidity These are the people who see no enjoyment or pride in their driving and seek no fun from trying to improve, contrary to how many on this forum probably see it.

Personally (I'll point out at this juncture that I DO NOT work in traffic, although our cars look the same) I have only ever prosecuted 1 person for excessive speed and that was more due to the manner of his driving. For me, if someone is exceeding the speed limit but driving very well, then they'll be left alone (or maybe words of advice for not spotting us in their mirror). If someone is clearly driving beyond their capability or generally being a tool then that's different.

Unfortunately, not everyone is like that and I know some Traffic cops (not all) who believe that they are the single best driver in the world and would prosecute for doing 80 0n an empty motorway in perfect conditions.

[XJ Flyer]

Pepperami said:

I know some Traffic cops (not all) who believe that they are the single best driver in the world and would prosecute for doing 80 0n an empty motorway in perfect conditions.

It seems obvious that the speed regime in Britain,like the US and increasingly Europe,is politically driven and nothing to do with safety.On that basis you can bet that it will be the type who you've described who'll be driving an unmarked car just as someone goes for an overtake requiring a significant margin over the single carriageway NSL to do it or running at 80 + on a clear motorway.

[Red Devil]

SK425 said:

Red Devil said:

You may consider it's not particularly relevant but I beg to differ. If you want to go faster than the 60/70 UK NSL on a regular basis with no fear of any penalty being imposed then you have to go to places where it doesn't apply.

Of course. But I think the point people are making is that the reason the NSL is frustrating might not be addressed by any of the things you suggest. For some, the frustration might simply be "I wanna go really really fast", and for them the things you suggest might help with that. For others, it might be completely different - for example, "I enjoy the process of road driving and I find the speed limit interferes with that enjoyment more than I would like". The 'process of road driving' is the continual adjustment of your speed to match traffic and hazard conditions until you reach your destination, and the speed limit interferes with that process any time you stop accelerating because of a speed limit, not because of a hazard. That frustration wouldn't be addressed at all by just going somewhere you can get a Vmax fix so, fun as that may be, I think it's irrelevant too.

I see where you're coming from. I find that choosing the right roads (where exceeding the NSL would be either difficult or pointless), and being selective about the time of day, solves that problem. Most routine day-to-day driving (where I live anyway) is mind-numbingly tedious. If enjoyment is the goal I have to cut my cloth accordingly. If it means going further afield than the roads I normally use, so be it. There are hundreds of miles of inviting available tarmac if you're willing to put yourself out to find them.

[Pit Pony]

I know plenty of roads where it would be unsafe to attempt to hit the NSL due to the blind nature of the bends. There are 2 very short straights on a road with multiple bends, that I have used daily for 18 years, and I yet have perfected a safe overtake, AND not enough distance to hit the NSL before having the brake for the next bend.

[Riggie]

I spent ten years as a traffic patrol officer on cars and bikes and on advanced courses, the 30/40/50 limits were an absolute, you could not exceed those limits. Wwhen the NSL applied, you were expected to drive as fast as the circumstances permitted.
I still absolutely adhere to 30/40/40 limits and use cruise control to do so. In NSL I may pinch a bit if conditions permit.

On the subject of enforcement, my own thresholds were 42 in a 30 and generally 90 on an unrestricted dual c/way or m/way, dependent on weather and traffic density. That way, I figured that I was targeting the deliberate speeders rather than those, like my wife, who just drives at a comfortable speed for her, which often is 35-36 in a 30. Common sense prevailed.

I never had anyone plead not guilty and I guess that was because they were given a fair bit of leeway.

I would also do checks near schools/parks etc, where there was a greater danger and in the interests of road safety. I don't believe that the scamera vans have such thoughts in mind, they target volume and greater rebpvenue rather than safety. That was illustrated when I was captured by a hidden van on the A303 dual carriageway which at the time was very quiet and I did a speed awareness course for my sins of 82 mph. I accept that I was breaking the law, but enforcement should be about safety rather than just revenue.

[jimbop1]

foxtrotmike said:

What is the general opinion in Advanced driving circles about breaking the national speed limit.

An observer has explained to me that they would exceed the limits, and seemed to frown upon my decision to stick to the limits as slow driving.

As for posted limits 20 30 40 50 mph etc they said this shouldn't be broken

60 in most circumstance on a NSL road is slow. Simple as really.

[SVS]

James, do you really mean in most circumstances?

[Red Devil]

Riggie said:

I accept that I was breaking the law, but enforcement should be about safety rather than just revenue.

If only...

Can't have the likes of you putting a spanner in the works of the government's Consolidated Fund slot machine.