Selfishness vs courtesy - overtaking
Discussion
SK425 said:
In general, if two drivers want to overtake I don't see why whoever is presented with an opportunity first shouldn't go first. That's not selfish. If you can see the driver in front wants to move out too then of course it's courteous to try and help them.
It depends I think. In the situation of pulling out from a sliproad onto an M-way, into slow traffic in L1, I think it is pretty selfish for a chap at the back to accelerate and block everyone else who's obviously trying to get out. In a more free-flowing situation once on the motorway, I probably agree with you.
JM said:
One question I would ask of the OP is, why not pass one lorry then pull in to let the following car past and then if there was still space pass the second lorry?
There wouldn't have been space to get by both with a pause in the middle. I'm not sure what good it would do either. If I was going to do that, surely it would have been better to just let them all go?CrutyRammers said:
SK425 said:
In general, if two drivers want to overtake I don't see why whoever is presented with an opportunity first shouldn't go first. That's not selfish. If you can see the driver in front wants to move out too then of course it's courteous to try and help them.
It depends I think. In the situation of pulling out from a sliproad onto an M-way, into slow traffic in L1, I think it is pretty selfish for a chap at the back to accelerate and block everyone else who's obviously trying to get out. In a more free-flowing situation once on the motorway, I probably agree with you.
) so presumably a clear and free-flowing road.Whilst the general nature of a motorway is that the overtaking opportunity (the gap in lane 2 traffic) approaches from behind so is available first for the person at the back of a line, it's kind of the other way around on a slip road because if you are in front on a slip road you get to the information first. On some slip roads the point at which you can start to see back up the motorway and plan is very early, on others it's not until very late. But wherever that point is, if you're in front you get there first. Sometimes of course, all you learn is that there is no lane 2 gap to aim for right now so you'll have no choice but to wait in lane 1 for a bit. Other times though, lane 2 will be clear and you can plan to move straight out there if lane 2 is where you want to be. In that scenario, if the driver behind still manages to pass you while you're in lane 1 there's really only two ways they can be doing it - either they're doing something illegal and/or dangerous that you're not prepared to do (e.g. crossing the chevrons so they actually get onto the motorway before you do, or darting out without looking properly), or their planning and preparation was better than yours. There's not a lot you can do about the first. The answer to the second is self-evident
.Edited by SK425 on Wednesday 13th August 02:14
SK425 said:
...or their planning and preparation was better than yours. There's not a lot you can do about the first. The answer to the second is self-evident .
.
It always amazes me how many people only look for a gap in lane 1 without fully checking in their mirrors. What is happening in the other lanes can make a big difference. Creating a larger gap to the the car in front while still on the slip road (provided you don't inconvenience anyone behind you) can often be beneficial. Quicker progress can then be made by smoothly and safely tagging onto the rear of a camel train in lane 2. Done this so many times that I've lost count. A little patience and foresight can reap dividends. More traffic = bigger pay-off!blueg33 said:
But generally, I have lost count of the times I have waited for people in front to make an overtake, but they keep faffing about until the opportunity is lost. As a result, I will go for the overtake if I am ready and if its safe, whilst watching the car in front ready for it to start to overtake without looking in its mirrors.
I agree. Usually, you can get a fairly good idea from road positioning, speed variation, etc, whether or not the person wants to overtake. The hard ones to judge are those who will act in a way that suggests an urgent desire to overtake but who will never pull the trigger.
I followed a line of 4 cars behind a real dawdler in an NSL the other day, all bumper to bumper and looking desperate to overtake (moving to the right, etc). The dawdler was the easiest kind to overtake - 40mph on the straight bits, 30 around corners and always (from what I could tell) in top gear and so very unlikely to speed up suddenly.
Once an opportunity arose, I indicated and moved into the other lane, expecting to have to hang back to let another car go first (or even to have to tuck back in). I made sure that the drivers I could see had clocked me. Nobody moved so I overtook all 5 and could see in my rear view mirror that not a single one of them carried out an overtake over the next half a mile or so of straight road with perfect visibility. Bizarre. The little convoy just continued to pootle along at 40mph in an NSL.
I am sure that these are the kind of people that complain constantly about the impossibility of making safe progress on our roads. If a dozen people sit behind one dawdler, there's no great surprise that this happens!
They have all been brainwashed into the 'Overtaking = BAD!' mindset (even when it perfectly safe to do so within the legal limit). The predictable result is akin to a plodding goods train exacerbated by the refusal to leave adequate separation so that others can get past without taking risks. Sometimes I swear that Marco Polo travelled faster on his 13th century journeys to the Far East!
IMO, people who plod along in a long line behind a slow vehicle without leaving enough space for overtakers to pull in, are at least as selfish as overtakers that don't give others a chance.
I respect the fact that many people don't want to overtake, but its wrong to force those that do to either stay in the queue or pass 5 cars in one go.
I respect the fact that many people don't want to overtake, but its wrong to force those that do to either stay in the queue or pass 5 cars in one go.
blueg33 said:
IMO, people who plod along in a long line behind a slow vehicle without leaving enough space for overtakers to pull in, are at least as selfish as overtakers that don't give others a chance.
I respect the fact that many people don't want to overtake, but its wrong to force those that do to either stay in the queue or pass 5 cars in one go.
The only upside is feeling terribly proud of yourself for pulling off a safe 5-car overtake. I respect the fact that many people don't want to overtake, but its wrong to force those that do to either stay in the queue or pass 5 cars in one go.
I used a technique from (I think) R U LOCAL to carry out an 8-car overtake on an A-road the other day, and I felt like Billy Big Spuds for about 10 minutes.
I completely agree, though, that bunching up is a very selfish and brainless thing to do. I imagine quite a few people would go for a single car overtake but never a 2 or 3 car pass (although the actual difference in the space needed is minimal).
I think its perfectly fine what you did as you indicated just before you made the manoevre. I theory it matters not one jot how fast your car is. The drivers behind should just wait their turn.
As mentioned I find it more annoying when people sit behind a slow moving vehicle nose to tail with no intention of overtaking and get all irate when you overtake and have to move into the tiny gaps they leave.
As mentioned I find it more annoying when people sit behind a slow moving vehicle nose to tail with no intention of overtaking and get all irate when you overtake and have to move into the tiny gaps they leave.
One other thing to be aware of if thinking you'll be considerate to those behind you and put your foot down - on a single carriageway with short dualled sections for overtaking, I recently came across a scamera van waiting out of sight right at the end of the overtaking lane to snare people doing just that.
OP, sounds like you've done nothing wrong and I'd have done the same when presented with an overtaking opportunity. Audi drivers Eh? As an Audi driver myself though maybe I can understand what the driver who came from behind was thinking.
There seems to be a general disapproval or fear of overtaking these days amongst a lot of drivers. Often, you can be driving behind a line of 3-4 cars stuck behind a slower moving vehicle for miles and miles and yet, when a clear and safe overtaking opportunity presents itself, no one goes for it? So everyone just sits there in close formation doing 45mph as opportunity after opportunity slip by.
Therefore often the only way to get past such a line of traffic is either in a staged overtake, 1-2 cars per time (which other drivers often seem to hate and sometimes close ranks), or to overtake the whole line at once (seen by many as aggressive driving, and cue flashing headlights etc). I suspect that this may have been what the Audi driver in this instance was thinking.
In both these cases you have to be mindful of someone else ahead of you in the queue pulling out without looking, or that you have a back out option to slot back into traffic if an unforeseen hazard appears ahead. Often this means overtaking initially at lower speed differential until you're sure you can fully clear the whole line before giving it the full beans. Luckily in the RS4 things are a bit easier in this respect, but it's pretty fun in the work's T5 Transporter too - just requires a bit more planning but the sense of achievement when you're past in the van is far greater than it is the Audi.
There seems to be a general disapproval or fear of overtaking these days amongst a lot of drivers. Often, you can be driving behind a line of 3-4 cars stuck behind a slower moving vehicle for miles and miles and yet, when a clear and safe overtaking opportunity presents itself, no one goes for it? So everyone just sits there in close formation doing 45mph as opportunity after opportunity slip by.
Therefore often the only way to get past such a line of traffic is either in a staged overtake, 1-2 cars per time (which other drivers often seem to hate and sometimes close ranks), or to overtake the whole line at once (seen by many as aggressive driving, and cue flashing headlights etc). I suspect that this may have been what the Audi driver in this instance was thinking.
In both these cases you have to be mindful of someone else ahead of you in the queue pulling out without looking, or that you have a back out option to slot back into traffic if an unforeseen hazard appears ahead. Often this means overtaking initially at lower speed differential until you're sure you can fully clear the whole line before giving it the full beans. Luckily in the RS4 things are a bit easier in this respect, but it's pretty fun in the work's T5 Transporter too - just requires a bit more planning but the sense of achievement when you're past in the van is far greater than it is the Audi.
qualitystreet said:
That sound like a useful tip. I’ll try it. (Although I imagine if done wrong it could be interpreted as gamesmanship and really get the Audi’s back up.)
the problem thereis the Audi driver has a very small penis and in his sociopathic rage aobut his genital inadequacy he feels even more emascualted for not passing and inferior vehicle ... whether this is slightly jocular and satire or not , i leave it up to you to determine ...
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Interesting thread, and reminds me of another pet-hate piss-boiler I get.
I'm driving along a single carriageway, which leads down to a motorway on-slip.
I have cars behind me. I am doing an acceptable speed, and not dawdling at all, by the way.
I go down the slip-road towards the motorway. I pull off the slip-road onto the motorway and into lane one. There is an HGV or slow-moving vehicle in front of me in lane one, that it is clear that, from my speed differential to these vehicles, that I will want to almost immediatley overtake, by going into lane 2.
However, the selfish t
ts driving along behind me have already bee-lined into lane 2 behind me, and by the time I have looked and started to indicate to move into lane 2, they're already in lane two, accelerating hard, and force me to brake and stay in lane 1 until they have blitzed past me!
Gits. I was in front of them to start with, but they sell me out in lane 1 until they've selfishly blasted past.
I let them get on with this - it's a bit like people who push you out of the way on Tubes and Buses in London - it's vitally important to them to gain perceived advantage, even though it's not real. On the motorway, as with the Tube etc, I usually catch and pass them later :-)I'm driving along a single carriageway, which leads down to a motorway on-slip.
I have cars behind me. I am doing an acceptable speed, and not dawdling at all, by the way.
I go down the slip-road towards the motorway. I pull off the slip-road onto the motorway and into lane one. There is an HGV or slow-moving vehicle in front of me in lane one, that it is clear that, from my speed differential to these vehicles, that I will want to almost immediatley overtake, by going into lane 2.
However, the selfish t
ts driving along behind me have already bee-lined into lane 2 behind me, and by the time I have looked and started to indicate to move into lane 2, they're already in lane two, accelerating hard, and force me to brake and stay in lane 1 until they have blitzed past me!Gits. I was in front of them to start with, but they sell me out in lane 1 until they've selfishly blasted past.
This sliproad onto the M65 is a two lane sliproad that merges into one lane at the top and then joins a two lane motorway.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7540446,-2.43290...
On a couple of occasions I've passed traffic going fairly slowly up the sliproad then joined the main carriageway with traffic alongside me. I've indicated in good time that I wish to pull out to overtake what's in lane one but those I've passed on the sliproad have dodged out round me, even though I'm indicating right, and proceeded to crawl past me and sit in the outside lane holding me up again. I don't think they even really see indicators or judge what other people will want to do.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7540446,-2.43290...
On a couple of occasions I've passed traffic going fairly slowly up the sliproad then joined the main carriageway with traffic alongside me. I've indicated in good time that I wish to pull out to overtake what's in lane one but those I've passed on the sliproad have dodged out round me, even though I'm indicating right, and proceeded to crawl past me and sit in the outside lane holding me up again. I don't think they even really see indicators or judge what other people will want to do.
I know the A69 well - a lot does depend on the car you drive, in the 4x4 you have to cruise and take the overtaking lanes when available, in the 2-seater it is easier to get past... but you do have to drive on behalf of other motorists, there are a lot of idiots on that road, I guess because it is a busy link road from West to East (or vice versa!) with a lot of single carriageway... R U Local's suggestion is great - road positioning is a lovely way to passively control other drivers, dropping back slightly and out to the right very slightly would have a) blocked the Audi b) given you clearer sight past the lorries c) made very obvious your intention.
WD39 said:
What's with all the overtaking ?
Slow down, take a deep breath and go with it for a while.
Relax.
You sound like you're bringing too much stress and impatience to your overtaking. Slow down, take a deep breath, relax and - when the opportunity presents - drive past and carry on with your day. A good overtake is one of the most satisfying, calming things in driving Slow down, take a deep breath and go with it for a while.
Relax.
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