Selfishness vs courtesy - overtaking

[qualitystreet]

Hello. First post here.

I was driving along the A69 last week. West of Hexham, it drops to single carriageway with occasional overtaking lanes.

I was following two HGVs, which I wanted to overtake, with around five cars close behind me, as we approached one of these overtaking lanes. I knew this lane to be on an uphill stretch, and rather short.

As we approached the start of the lane, I dropped a gear, indicated, and prepared to move out. As I was doing this, the Audi immediately behind me quickly moved out right (into the hatched area, and without indicating) trying to get the jump on me. (I wasn't exactly surprised by this.)

I now had a choice. Back off, and let him get past me, or hold my ground. I was pretty sure that if I let him go, the other four would be with him in a flash and I’d lose my opportunity to overtake.

So I held my ground, and passed the HGVs as fast as I could (which used up most of the overtaking lane; my car isn't a rocket) with him on my tail. As I pulled in, he carried on (again in the hatchings) to pass me before pulling in, giving me the glare as he did so. Then he did a mental overtake on the car in front into the path of an oncoming HGV and went on his merry way.

So two of us got past the HGVs, and the four at the back had to admit defeat and pull back in (no doubt cursing the ‘moron' who decided to crawl past the lorries).

Now, I'm fairly sure that if I'd let him go, those cars behind would have followed him through and quite comfortably got past the HGVs. But I wouldn't. I would have joined the back of the queue halfway up the overtaking lane and not had enough space to safely continue. So I 'chose' to hold them up for my own benefit.

But that's their tough luck, right? I tend to think along the lines of ‘sorry, you should have got up earlier. I’m not going to banjax my own journey just for your sake. Wait your turn’. But I’m sure the other five drivers just saw an idiot who blocked an overtake and then crawled past the HGVs out of spite!

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

[7db]

They were stuck in traffic.

[GregK2]

Drop 2 gears next time What were you driving?

[blindswelledrat]

qualitystreet said:

But that's their tough luck, right? I tend to think along the lines of ‘sorry, you should have got up earlier. I’m not going to banjax my own journey just for your sake. Wait your turn’. But I’m sure the other five drivers just saw an idiot who blocked an overtake and then crawled past the HGVs out of spite!

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

I would imagine that the fact you have even thought of this suggest you are generally aware of the road and relatively considerate.
Most people wouldn't even have thought about it and would have made the overtake without noticing.
If you feel mildly guilty just think about farmers and tractors and you will feel much better.

[Symo93]

Get a faster car?

[R_U_LOCAL]

Welcome to the forum.

This is a common issue on todays roads. I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with what you did, as you stated that you were well aware of the actions and intentions of the drivers behind - particularly the Audi driver (is it always Audi drivers? Really?)

When overtaking, its very important to consider the potential actions of the vehicle(s) you're planning to overtake. Is it also looking to overtake? I would suggest that by his actions, the Audi driver had already guessed that you would go for the overtake, hence his early move into the hatched area which was likely planned in an attempt to gain an advantage by effectively blocking your overtake.

On the other hand, its also very important to carefully look behind you before moving into an overtake, for exactly the reasons you have described. It's more common with motorcyclists, who almost always seem to assume that they're the only ones looking to overtake. I'll generally let motorcyclists pass, because their acceleration advantage usually means they're past very quickly and don't hamper my own overtakes.

If you're in this situation again, and your rear observations show someone behiaving in a similar way, there are a couple of things you can do to give yourself an advantage and prevent any potential conflict with the car behind.

The first is to back off slightly on the approach to the overtaking lane. Before you get to the start of the lane, back off slightly until your following position is perhaps 4 seconds. Then, as you get closer to the start of the lane, take a flexible gear and start to accelerate early. Backing off will force the car behind to do the same, but if you do it subtly, they won't even notice they're slowing. Accelerating early will usually catch them slighlty off-guard and by the time they've started to accelerate, you'll already be starting your overtake.

It's a subtle, crafty technique, and one I often use on motorway slip-roads when I've got an aggressive driver behind me who I think may look to get the jump on me when joining & looking to move quickly into lane 2.

A note of caution though, occasionally you'll find a driver who is a bit more switched on, so you need to carefully check your mirrors throughout the manoeuvre.

The second tip is simple. Stick on a right indicator on the approach to the overtaking lane. A nice early signal gives following drivers plenty of warning of your intentions and may prevent them from trying to force past you. Most drivers (even Audi drivers) are reluctant to overtake a vehicle showing a right indicator.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Interesting thread, and reminds me of another pet-hate piss-boiler I get.

I'm driving along a single carriageway, which leads down to a motorway on-slip.

I have cars behind me. I am doing an acceptable speed, and not dawdling at all, by the way.

I go down the slip-road towards the motorway. I pull off the slip-road onto the motorway and into lane one. There is an HGV or slow-moving vehicle in front of me in lane one, that it is clear that, from my speed differential to these vehicles, that I will want to almost immediatley overtake, by going into lane 2.

However, the selfish tts driving along behind me have already bee-lined into lane 2 behind me, and by the time I have looked and started to indicate to move into lane 2, they're already in lane two, accelerating hard, and force me to brake and stay in lane 1 until they have blitzed past me!

Gits. I was in front of them to start with, but they sell me out in lane 1 until they've selfishly blasted past.

[qualitystreet]

Thanks for the replies. Glad to know my thinking is along the right lines.

It’s a Skoda Fabia 1.9 TDi with a dicky turbo. When it’s behaving it would have no problem zipping past the HGVs, but at the time it was having one of its off days. (One of the reason I was keen to overtake in an overtaking lane, and not into oncoming traffic!)

R_U_LOCAL said:

The first is to back off slightly on the approach to the overtaking lane. Before you get to the start of the lane, back off slightly until your following position is perhaps 4 seconds. Then, as you get closer to the start of the lane, take a flexible gear and start to accelerate early. Backing off will force the car behind to do the same, but if you do it subtly, they won't even notice they're slowing. Accelerating early will usually catch them slighlty off-guard and by the time they've started to accelerate, you'll already be starting your overtake.

That sound like a useful tip. I’ll try it. (Although I imagine if done wrong it could be interpreted as gamesmanship and really get the Audi’s back up.)

[SK425]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Interesting thread, and reminds me of another pet-hate piss-boiler I get.

I'm driving along a single carriageway, which leads down to a motorway on-slip.

I have cars behind me. I am doing an acceptable speed, and not dawdling at all, by the way.

I go down the slip-road towards the motorway. I pull off the slip-road onto the motorway and into lane one. There is an HGV or slow-moving vehicle in front of me in lane one, that it is clear that, from my speed differential to these vehicles, that I will want to almost immediatley overtake, by going into lane 2.

However, the selfish tts driving along behind me have already bee-lined into lane 2 behind me, and by the time I have looked and started to indicate to move into lane 2, they're already in lane two, accelerating hard, and force me to brake and stay in lane 1 until they have blitzed past me!

Gits. I was in front of them to start with, but they sell me out in lane 1 until they've selfishly blasted past.

How are they doing it? You get to the motorway first so shouldn't you have the first opportunity to get to lane 2? What are they doing differently to you that enables them to get into lane two more quickly? Are they driving across the chevrons? Are they not bothering with petty details like checking it's clear? Could you time your join and acceleration differently so the conflict was less likely to arise? Is there initially some established traffic in lane 2 overtaking the HGV so you both have to wait briefly for the gap in lane 2 to arrive (a gap that's going to be available for the driver behind you before it's available for you of course)?

[Ekona]

Sounds like they're just giving it bks and going for it. Dangerous, but it usually works.

I tend to do the dropping back then accelerating thing too, works extremely well.

[7mike]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Interesting thread, and reminds me of another pet-hate piss-boiler I get.

Just match the speed of the LGV, let the budding F1 (in a straight line) drivers go by then move out into a nice relaxing gap. Increases journey time by the sum total of sweet FA

(or just hang back & boot it depending on mood )

[CrutyRammers]

SK425 said:

How are they doing it? You get to the motorway first so shouldn't you have the first opportunity to get to lane 2? What are they doing differently to you that enables them to get into lane two more quickly? Are they driving across the chevrons? Are they not bothering with petty details like checking it's clear? Could you time your join and acceleration differently so the conflict was less likely to arise? Is there initially some established traffic in lane 2 overtaking the HGV so you both have to wait briefly for the gap in lane 2 to arrive (a gap that's going to be available for the driver behind you before it's available for you of course)?

Happens a lot on motorways. The people at the back of the queue have the advantage if there is a line of traffic passing in L2, because the back of the line passes the people at the back first; hence they can pull out first and block the rest of the people in L1 in.

[blueg33]

CrutyRammers said:

SK425 said:

How are they doing it? You get to the motorway first so shouldn't you have the first opportunity to get to lane 2? What are they doing differently to you that enables them to get into lane two more quickly? Are they driving across the chevrons? Are they not bothering with petty details like checking it's clear? Could you time your join and acceleration differently so the conflict was less likely to arise? Is there initially some established traffic in lane 2 overtaking the HGV so you both have to wait briefly for the gap in lane 2 to arrive (a gap that's going to be available for the driver behind you before it's available for you of course)?

Happens a lot on motorways. The people at the back of the queue have the advantage if there is a line of traffic passing in L2, because the back of the line passes the people at the back first; hence they can pull out first and block the rest of the people in L1 in.

I tend to read the gaps in the motorway traffic in lane 1 and land 2 as I come down the slip road and match my speed to the gaps I want, generallythis means I can move into L2 pretty quickly if necessary, if others aren't planning ahead than surely that is their problem rather than mine.

Generally on a motorway, you get stuck behind slowers traffic because you aren't thinking/planning far enough ahead (this doesnt mean sit in lane 2)

[SK425]

CrutyRammers said:

Happens a lot on motorways. The people at the back of the queue have the advantage if there is a line of traffic passing in L2, because the back of the line passes the people at the back first; hence they can pull out first and block the rest of the people in L1 in.

Well, yes. In that situation, the first person to be presented with an overtaking opportunity is the person at the back of the line in L1, so it's perfectly reasonable and not selfish at all for them to overtake first. It might be odd if they didn't.

RL-Y is obviously pissed off but it's not clear from the description whether the other drivers are doing anything wrong. They might well be - driving across the chevrons and/or not checking whether it's clear and safe to move over for example. Or maybe they are just planning and timing their join, acceleration, lane change and overtake differently and that's allowing them to get into lane 2 before RL-Y. Or maybe traffic initially in lane 2 means the driver behind RL-Y is actually the first to be presented with the overtaking opportunity.

[HonestIago]

If I were the car behind you I'd have waited to see if you were going to overtake before indicating/pulling out.

As it happens, on Sunday I was at the back of a queue of 8 slowish moving cars on the A697. We came to a good straight at which point I expected a mess of various cars pulling out at once. To my delight, no one pulled out so I dropped a cog, indicated, and passed all 7 of them!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.728305,-2.726821...

[CrutyRammers]

blueg33 said:

I tend to read the gaps in the motorway traffic in lane 1 and land 2 as I come down the slip road and match my speed to the gaps I want, generallythis means I can move into L2 pretty quickly if necessary, if others aren't planning ahead than surely that is their problem rather than mine.

Generally on a motorway, you get stuck behind slowers traffic because you aren't thinking/planning far enough ahead (this doesnt mean sit in lane 2)

Indeed, if the slip road allows you to. My daily drive onto the M6 is a short, upwards slip that gives almost no visibility until you're right at the dotted line, for example. In heavy traffic sometimes you just have to merge where you can and have people behind get the jump on you. The nicer ones will flash people out rather than block them in, but that's fairly rare.

Agree that once on the motorway itself then getting boxed in is a planning failure.

[CrutyRammers]

SK425 said:

Well, yes. In that situation, the first person to be presented with an overtaking opportunity is the person at the back of the line in L1, so it's perfectly reasonable and not selfish at all for them to overtake first. It might be odd if they didn't.

Hmm, dunno if I agree with that. If I'm at the back and it looks like someone in front also wants to overtake, I'll either flash them out (ooooh, can of worms right there) or move over to L3 to give them space. I think it is pretty selfish to accelerate to block someone in who's obviously trying to get out, actually.

[SK425]

CrutyRammers said:

SK425 said:

Well, yes. In that situation, the first person to be presented with an overtaking opportunity is the person at the back of the line in L1, so it's perfectly reasonable and not selfish at all for them to overtake first. It might be odd if they didn't.

Hmm, dunno if I agree with that. If I'm at the back and it looks like someone in front also wants to overtake, I'll either flash them out (ooooh, can of worms right there) or move over to L3 to give them space. I think it is pretty selfish to accelerate to block someone in who's obviously trying to get out, actually.

In general, if two drivers want to overtake I don't see why whoever is presented with an opportunity first shouldn't go first. That's not selfish. If you can see the driver in front wants to move out too then of course it's courteous to try and help them. Moving to lane 3 (if there is a lane 3) is a good idea if it's clear - but only if it's clear of course, which it might not be. If lane 3 isn't an option then the way to help the driver in front is to get on with your overtake - you're accelerating to get out of their way, not to block them in. In heavier traffic with little speed differential between the lanes you can't get on with your overtake. In that situation, if your choice is between moving out but holding back to let them out too or moving out and creeping past blocking them in for ages, then I agree with you and I would probably let them out in front of me too, although from RL-Y's post I was picturing the motorway being clearer and more free-flowing then that.

If it's clear for you to pull out and get past promptly, you've always got the option of letting the driver in front out ahead of you anyway. That's your prerogative but there's no reason for you to feel obliged to do that and they've no grounds for expecting it of you.

[blueg33]

CrutyRammers said:

Indeed, if the slip road allows you to. My daily drive onto the M6 is a short, upwards slip that gives almost no visibility until you're right at the dotted line, for example. In heavy traffic sometimes you just have to merge where you can and have people behind get the jump on you. The nicer ones will flash people out rather than block them in, but that's fairly rare.

Agree that once on the motorway itself then getting boxed in is a planning failure.

Agreed, there are slip roads where you just cant see, and in that case i let the guy in front go first. Having said that, there are many cases where I know that I have the power to match speeds and move into L2 or L3 quickly whereas the car infront has less power and has generally been driven in a way that suggests they will get on with nothing quickly. If they are not decisive then they may have to wait for me to move past them before they get into L2. If they are decisive and signal their intentions then obviously I give them priority.

But generally, I have lost count of the times I have waited for people in front to make an overtake, but they keep faffing about until the opportunity is lost. As a result, I will go for the overtake if I am ready and if its safe, whilst watching the car in front ready for it to start to overtake without looking in its mirrors.

[scarble]

Personally I would have waited if I knew the car behind was faster.
Unfortunately it's often the case that they think they're faster, in which case, f**k em. But if in the time it took you to overtake, those other 2 cars could have both done so, I'd have let them.
Not on him cutting the hatching though (unless it was border by a broken line, in which case it's perfectly ok).